Does Christian marriage culture cause materialism?

[zippy2006]

To have somebody in my life to love me would certainly motivate me, as in the past the prospect of a potential partner has made me much more capable of facing my social anxiety and finding work.

HOWEVER...

I want a wife that isn't only interested in me when I am able to provide for her...

It sounds like you are interested in a wife because of the emotional support she would provide, but you don't want a woman who is interested in you because of the financial support you would provide. It seems like you are guilty of the same thing you are trying to avoid, except your condition is emotional support rather than financial support.

 

[Alistair_Wonderland]

It sounds like you are interested in a wife because of the emotional support she would provide, but you don't want a woman who is interested in you because of the financial support you would provide. It seems like you are guilty of the same thing you are trying to avoid, except your condition is emotional support rather than financial support.

Because I want a woman who is more interested in my emotional support than my financial support, just as I would be more interested in her emotional support than the financial support. I fail to see how this makes me guilty. I want what I give in return. How is that so hard? I have been in a one-sided relationship before; it was toxic. If all I ask is that the person I love to love me in return, how is that a subject of guilt? A relationship is literally about emotionally supporting one another.

Also, what exactly do you expect me to expect in a relationship? To just love someone unconditionally no matter what they give me in return? I just watched the girl I loved marry another guy last February because I did that. I fully support her choice (love can't and shouldn't be forced), but honestly, all I want is someone who wants me. Not my money, but me. Because I've seen very poor living when my dad left my mom, and I know money can disappear in an instant; I don't want a wife who will disappear with it. Or what? Should I marry her with pretenses of provision which fall apart when something unexpected comes upon us? That's a lie. I know dang well I might not be able to always provide, since life is not nearly as stable as people think; I just want someone to love me through better or worse, not just when it benefits them.

Much of this original post was made as as outlet for pain. If that wasn't obvious, I now make it clear for you. It is by God's grace alone that Christians have not turned me from Christ.

 

[Alistair_Wonderland]

Are you supporting them financially? How many have you come alongside? Are you supplementing their income and helping them provide for their children? Have you offered to cover tuition or pay towards college expenses?

I’m not trying to put you on the spot and you don’t have to answer. Postulations are easy. Backing them up with resources is another matter. And most people don’t.

Living within your means isn’t elitist. Children rely on their parents. Rhetoric won’t fill their bellies. You have to provide. That’s your job.

There’s a lot of hungry people in the world.
There’s a lot of illnesses that could be remedied with decent healthcare.
There’s a lot of people being exploited because they don’t have other options.
There’s a lot of people who don’t have a safe place to lay their head.

That’s poverty up close. There’s no glorification in that.

If I have implied that I don't want to provide for my wife, forgive my lack of clarity. My difficulty is that I would work myself to the bone for my True Love... but only when I have a True Love. If we have to wait for certain things until we are more financially ready, I understand that. I just want someone who's willing to wait.
I suffer from extreme depression and anxiety because of loneliness. All I ask is that someone comes to help my loneliness so that I can help them in return. I will provide with all I can... but I want mutual, unconditional love. If Jesus gives it, why's it so hard for Christians?

 

[Alistair_Wonderland]

I'm not too big to admit that, as far as I've lived it and known it, we men do not seem to cope with being single nearly as well as women do. See Bèlla's earlier observation that most of the people complaining about this state of affairs are men. Maybe there's some way that this could be turned around to also be an indictment of women and/or feminism (here, let me try: according to women/feminism, women who say they don't need men are strong and liberated, but men who say they don't need women are pathetic, incel women-haters, or something like that), but frankly that'd be a mental salve, not a solution to the problem you're having. And if you think the problem is primarily that women are deceitful or whatever, then why would you want to be with one? And more importantly, why should they want to be with you, if that's the attitude they're presented with at the outset?

Forgive my bluntness, please, but I don't think feminism is going to go away just because you can't seem to find someone to be romantically attracted to you because you have trust issues or other hang-ups that make you unattractive (doesn't everyone?). So you can actually blame whoever or whatever you'd like, but it's not going to do any good. Do we have to go back to the days when women couldn't have their own bank accounts or whatever just so that it is easier for a subset of men to find mates? Gee...I can't for the life of me imagine why more women would not be on board with that!

I... am rather surprised if you are referring to me. I can only assume you did not read my post in its entirety.
If one were to blame me for being weak as a man and seeking to rely upon a woman financially, I could see how they could reach that (incorrect) conclusion.
But you seem to be implying that I think women are deceitful, when I never said anything of the sort, and that I am implying women shouldn't have the freedom bank accounts or whatever that was that you said.
All I was saying is that I want somebody who is more interested in my love than my money; I never implied it was unreasonable for her to expect me to do my best to provide support. Where you pulled your statements from mystifies me.
Honestly, your reply doesn't entirely seem related to the topic at hand. Get your facts straight, then you can distort them as you please.

 

[zippy2006]

...but I want mutual, unconditional love.

See, but a pact of unconditional love can never be unconditional, for it is conditioned by the pact. Unconditional love can never be prescribed in that manner. In some ways you either love someone unconditionally or you don't. You can try to find someone who will love you in the way you desire, but if you are "unconditionally" loving them on the basis of some kind of love you expect from them, then your love is not unconditional.

In any case, unconditional love is a bit overrated, and at the very least only occurs after a long time. I think you need to accept the fact that financial security is a legitimate good and that women (and men) are prudent to desire it. It shouldn't be the only thing they desire, and a marriage should not be premised on material gain, but it is a legitimate factor.

 

[bèlla]

If I have implied that I don't want to provide for my wife, forgive my lack of clarity. My difficulty is that I would work myself to the bone for my True Love... but only when I have a True Love.

You’re desirous of unconditional love while expressing a condition. If she’s your spouse its settled. True or not you have obligations. As does she.

If we have to wait for certain things until we are more financially ready, I understand that. I just want someone who's willing to wait.

That isn’t difficult. Everyone isn’t materialistic or seeking a lavish lifestyle. Some people prefer less. Pick from that group.

I suffer from extreme depression and anxiety because of loneliness. All I ask is that someone comes to help my loneliness so that I can help them in return. I will provide with all I can... but I want mutual, unconditional love. If Jesus gives it, why's it so hard for Christians?

We aren’t Jesus and nor are you. We’re imperfect and flawed. He isn’t. I’m going to go on a limb and say this and hope you see it from the spirit its intended.

That’s a bad reason to marry. Hoping someone will fill a void usually leads to disappointment or divorce. Feelings change. Pledging themselves to you to sate your loneliness isn’t much to cling to.

Who’s to say the depression and anxiety will abate. It’s better to build your life with someone who accepts you as you are while acknowledging the necessity of getting a handle on this while you’re alone.

Your happiness can’t be dependent on her presence. You have to learn how to thrive whether she’s here or not. Situations like this often create imbalances where one person holds the power and I don’t advise it.

You have to find your reason for being before she comes. Pursue wholeness for yourself. She can’t be a crutch. The greater your emotional dependence the higher the likelihood for exploitation. I’ve seen it a lot.

 

[Alistair_Wonderland]

See, but a pact of unconditional love can never be unconditional, for it is conditioned by the pact. Unconditional love can never be prescribed in that manner. In some ways you either love someone unconditionally or you don't. You can try to find someone who will love you in the way you desire, but if you are "unconditionally" loving them on the basis of some kind of love you expect from them, then your love is not unconditional.

In any case, unconditional love is a bit overrated, and at the very least only occurs after a long time. I think you need to accept the fact that financial security is a legitimate good and that women (and men) are prudent to desire it. It shouldn't be the only thing they desire, and a marriage should not be premised on material gain, but it is a legitimate factor.

To pursue financial security is one thing. To marry for money is another. And I think you missed the whole point: I do love unconditionally, otherwise I would not have let the girl I love marry another man. All I ask is that, if I am going to marry them, that they love me as a person, not as a support mechanism. I am fully aware that a relationship will entail far more than me simply receiving emotional support, and will require me to give a good deal, and I am fully willing to do that. But what everyone here is telling me is to give and get nothing in return, marry and provide for someone who doesn't even love me.
I simply want a wife who loves me more than money. I fail to see how this subject is so difficult for some people to grasp.

Also, unconditional love being overrated is... well, it's an opinion, and you're welcome to it, but you might want to remember it's literally what saved the world.

Nevertheless, I see no reason to continue. I posted out of pain, and I have learned my lesson.

 

[zippy2006]

But what everyone here is telling me is to give and get nothing in return, marry and provide for someone who doesn't even love me.

I don't think anyone is telling you that, and I fully agree with Bella when she says that you need to learn to stand on your own two feet if you want to have a healthy relationship with another person.

Also, unconditional love being overrated is... well, it's an opinion, and you're welcome to it, but you might want to remember it's literally what saved the world.

Yes, but it's good to remember that you are not God and the girl you marry will not be God either.

Nevertheless, I see no reason to continue. I posted out of pain, and I have learned my lesson.

Good luck in your search. I think you just need to find a woman who shares your values and give it a chance.

 

[Alistair_Wonderland]

You’re desirous of unconditional love while expressing a condition. If she’s your spouse its settled. True or not you have obligations. As does she.



That isn’t difficult. Everyone isn’t materialistic or seeking a lavish lifestyle. Some people prefer less. Pick from that group.



We aren’t Jesus and nor are you. We’re imperfect and flawed. He isn’t. I’m going to go on a limb and say this and hope you see it from the spirit its intended.

That’s a bad reason to marry. Hoping someone will fill a void usually leads to disappointment or divorce. Feelings change. Pledging themselves to you to sate your loneliness isn’t much to cling to.

Who’s to say the depression and anxiety will abate. It’s better to build your life with someone who accepts you as you are while acknowledging the necessity of getting a handle on this while you’re alone.

Your happiness can’t be dependent on her presence. You have to learn how to thrive whether she’s here or not. Situations like this often create imbalances where one person holds the power and I don’t advise it.

You have to find your reason for being before she comes. Pursue wholeness for yourself. She can’t be a crutch. The greater your emotional dependence the higher the likelihood for exploitation. I’ve seen it a lot.

Thank you for your politeness and taking my feelings into account.
I have heard the argument that "nobody will help fill a void", but I have found that to be untrue. Before my friend got married, her company was very helpful in making me feel emotionally stable, and I have found that when I am near people, be that church or family, I feel much better than when I am alone (which is often, unfortunately).

I am indeed trying to get a handle on my depression and other issues. I know that, regardless of what happens in my love life, they aren't helping me.

And yes, you are right that I have to find my reason for being outside of a relationship. In fact, I think I know my reason. The problem is, depression is crippling, and a cripple who has only themselves to rely upon is not in a good state.
Emphasis on "only themselves". Unlike many people in church, I have very little attention from my family and next to no support; my mother was actually quite destructive to my life before she passed away. I am trying to reach out to the church, but I've been burned by Christians so many times that I'm very cynical about the Church.
In the end, I'm looking for a soulmate. Simple as that.

 

[Alistair_Wonderland]

Thank you for your politeness and taking my feelings into account.
I have heard the argument that "nobody will help fill a void", but I have found that to be untrue. Before my friend got married, her company was very helpful in making me feel emotionally stable, and I have found that when I am near people, be that church or family, I feel much better than when I am alone (which is often, unfortunately).

I am indeed trying to get a handle on my depression and other issues. I know that, regardless of what happens in my love life, they aren't helping me.

And yes, you are right that I have to find my reason for being outside of a relationship. In fact, I think I know my reason. The problem is, depression is crippling, and a cripple who has only themselves to rely upon is not in a good state.
Emphasis on "only themselves". Unlike many people in church, I have very little attention from my family and next to no support; my mother was actually quite destructive to my life before she passed away. I am trying to reach out to the church, but I've been burned by Christians so many times that I'm very cynical about the Church.
In the end, I'm looking for a soulmate. I no longer have my brothers, who were major supports to me, in my life very often. I just want to find a family. Simple as that.

 

[Alistair_Wonderland]

I don't think anyone is telling you that, and I fully agree with Bella when she says that you need to learn to stand on your own two feet if you want to have a healthy relationship with another person.



Yes, but it's good to remember that you are not God and the girl you marry will not be God either.



Good luck in your search. I think you just need to find a woman who shares your values and give it a chance.

Not being God is no excuse to stop trying to be a much like Him as possible. Though I admit, I do need to be a bit more lax in some areas with my passion and perfectionism.

I am doing what I can, in my own pathetic way, to stand on my own two feet. I just want somebody to care enough to try and help me, even if I'm pathetic. It's not even the help I want, so much as the gesture.
I have no friends. Many churches only offers kind "hello"s on Sunday morning. My family is either too busy or too introverted to spend any time with me. All I am looking for is a family; that's all.

 

[zippy2006]

Not being God is no excuse to stop trying to be a much like Him as possible. Though I admit, I do need to be a bit more lax in some areas with my passion and perfectionism.

I am doing what I can, in my own pathetic way, to stand on my own two feet. I just want somebody to care enough to try and help me, even if I'm pathetic. It's not even the help I want, so much as the gesture.
I have no friends. Many churches only offers kind "hello"s on Sunday morning. My family is either too busy or too introverted to spend any time with me. All I am looking for is a family; that's all.

Yeah, I was going to say that I think friendship might be an important complement. Having a support network is great because then you don't place the entire burden on one person. They can share the load and you can help share their load with others. It can be tricky to build up a group of friends, but it is worth it.

 

[RDKirk]

Hmm, I don't know. Even a smaller church would probably want a pastor who has done something before. Someone who's gone straight from school to college and never done any paid work is probably lacking in general life experience.

I see that pastor most often put in charge of the youth program in a church. That, of course, is an error--youth need the most experienced pastor, not the least experienced one--but that's the pattern I most often see.

The young pastor probably ought to be the church pastor to the elderly, where he can get in a lot of prayer time.

 

[RDKirk]

Yeah, I was going to say that I think friendship might be an important complement. Having a support network is great because then you don't place the entire burden on one person. They can share the load and you can help share their load with others. It can be tricky to build up a group of friends, but it is worth it.

Well, from what we read in scripture, that support network is supposed to be the congregation....

 

[RDKirk]

Why do sole proprietors in business take on a partner? To do better than either could do alone. Nobody takes on a partner to continue to do badly.

Sometime back in the 80s, women began saying, "If I'm going to do badly, I can do badly all by myself."

There is nothing wrong with a woman (or man) expecting to do better in marriage than single. Otherwise, there is no point to being married. That's not a tenet born of Christianity, that's called survival. That's how the species continues. And not only the human species.

If a person's only reason to get married is to assuage loneliness without imposing any other obligations, then what that person really wants is a dog.

 

[lismore]

Nothing hypocritical is ever done "officially". But I can bet you 99 out of a hundred churches wouldn't want a pastor without a previous job history.

It might be interesting to run a little test in various churches.

Send two visitors in, first a married middle class guy with a good middle class marriage, 2.4 kids, a professional job, steady income and a member of the tennis club, but with a nominal faith.

Second an older, single guy with no steady income and learning difficulties but a strong faith.

Contact them after a year and see what their experience of 'church' has been.

God Bless

 

[Alistair_Wonderland]

Speaking as someone in this demographic with a marriage minded daughter..

It isn’t my responsibility to support you or your parents.
It isn’t my responsibility to support your siblings.
It isn’t my responsibility to support your extended family.
That’s your job!

~bella

And it's not my responsibility to support your daughter or you. The point of a relationship is about taking responsibility, and if I am to have a healthy marriage, I cannot marry a woman who will have expectations of me that she will not meet herself. I ask not for support, only that I be loved regardless of my money. If I have somebody who will love me as I am, I would do everything I could to support them. If they do not love me without my money, then they would not truly love me with it.

Also, as a Christian, I would see it as my responsibility to help you and your family... regardless of relationship, if I even knew you, or that I know very well I would receive nothing in return. That's my job!

 

[Alistair_Wonderland]

.

 

[Alistair_Wonderland]

The last line was unnecessary, but I can sympathize with most of what you're saying.

Wrote this is a passion of pain and loneliness. I've always been a bit dramatic. Great for creative writing, not so much elsewhere.

 

[Paidiske]

The point of a relationship is about taking responsibility, and if I am to have a healthy marriage, I cannot marry a woman who will have expectations of me that she will not meet herself. I ask not for support, only that I be loved regardless of my money.

To be loved regardless of money is often a requirement for material support, though.

Here's the thing, as I see it. Ideally, both parties in a marriage have at least the ability to earn an income, and a realistic understanding that over a lifetime, the balance of who earns, and how it is earned, is likely to change with the changing seasons of life. For example, if you want children, the likelihood is that the child's mother is going to need some time out of work, and you'll need to plan and work together to fund that if you typically rely on her income.

It's totally reasonable to expect that your future wife will love you through those changing seasons and support you during the times when you need it (and vice versa). But a demand that money not be considered at all is not reasonable. She has to look ahead to a lifetime with you and ask herself if that is safe, and sustainable. If you expect her to do all the financial providing (which is what the idea of being loved regardless of money can come across as), then she may well decide you're not looking like a strong prospective life partner, not because you don't have money, but because it doesn't look like you're approaching marriage as a team effort.