Does Christ repeat the Sabbath commandment?

[Peace Keeper]

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets, I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:17-19 KJV

The word for "law" in Greek in these passages above is: Nomos (http://biblehub.com/greek/3551.htm) that literally means the Mosaic law (Law given to Moses) and the Old Testament scriptures in general. The word origin for this word is from nemo, which means "that which is assigned, hence usage, law."

Also, it is interesting to note that the word "law" in Colossians 2:14 KJV "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances [law] that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross." Is a completely different word than Nomos. The word used here is dogma (http://biblehub.com/greek/1378.htm) which, yes it can mean law, but the word origin is from dokeo, which means "an opinion, (a public) decree." I found that the literal ancient Greek meaning for dogma is "something that seems true." No mention of the Old Testament or the Mosaic law.

This does not mean that we continue the sacrifices because Yeshua (Jesus) was the only and final sacrifice which washed our sins completely away, there is no need to continue them. However, I don't see any problem in following the Sabbath, or the Holy Days listed in Scripture or following what foods we should eat. It should be a very joyous thing in celebrating Yahweh's (God's) Holy Days because we will celebrate them in His Kingdom. These Holy Days were not given to only Israel, because these Holy Day's belong to Yahweh (God).

1 And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘The feasts of the LORD, which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, these are My feasts." Leviticus 23:1


4 ‘These are the feasts of the LORD, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at their appointed times." Leviticus 23:4


22 “For as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I will make shall remain before Me,” says the LORD,
“So shall your descendants and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the LORD." Isaiah 66:22-23


16 "And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the Lord strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles." Zechariah 14:16-19


26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it,and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.”
27 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying,“Drink from it, all of you. 28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. 29 But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.” [Talking about the Lord's last supper/Passover] Matthew 26:26-29; Mark 14:22-25


14 "When the hour had come, He sat down, and the twelve apostles with Him. 15 Then He said to them, “With fervent desire I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer; 16 for I say to you, I will no longer eat of it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.” Luke 22:14-16


6 "...Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth." 1 Corinthians 5:6-8

 

[Light of the East]

But the other 9 Commandments stand though, right? Are you Commanded to not commit adultery? What happens if you do? You are in sin, right, at enmity against God until you confess and repent of that sin. We all know that putting anything above our love and devotion to God violates Commandment #2, so that one is still in effect....

Why don't you just be honest and state what you want to believe.... "I don't have to worship God how He says... I can decide for myself even though I don't have any authority from the Bible to do so. God will be happy for my worship because I give it and god is love, right?

The Commandments stand. Why don't you believe the Bible? I showed you the verses that connect the Old Covenant of the Jews to the keeping of the Saturday Sabbath. The Sabbath was a day of rest which looked forward to the rest which was to come in the Messiah. Now that He has done that, why would I keep a prophetic day which points to a coming Messiah when He has already come? That's a form of denying Him, you know.

The change to the Day of Resurrection now points to the accomplished and finished work of Christ to give us rest from our sins, therefore, it is appropriate that while we still have a "Seventh Day" of rest, that day is changed to the Resurrection Day to show that Christ has indeed come and successfully finished His work.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

The Commandments stand. Why don't you believe the Bible?

Considering there is no "thus saith the Lord" regarding the 4th Commandment being removed from the stone tablets we cannot trust to our own understanding. Consider that even James said many years after Christ's death..."For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." Unless the One who spoke the Commandments into existence rescinds them as a whole or even a single one, then they are all still binding as James shows.

Sabbath breakers cannot get around the fact that Jesus no where in the Bible renounced or degraded the seventh day Sabbath... on the contrary, we see that He magnified the Law with a better, more spiritual way of understanding them and keeping them through the power of His Holy Spirit.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Why don't you believe the Bible?

I do... exclusively.

I see that you are Catholic so I will show you historical quotations from your own denomination that affirm the Sabbath was changed to Sunday by their own volition... not from the Bible.

In the Catechism of the Council of Trent,
"The Church of God has thought it well to transfer the celebration and observance of the Sabbath to Sunday!"
–p 402, second revised edition (English), 1937. (First published in 1566)

In A Doctrinal Catechism,
Q. Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her. She could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.
–Rev. Stephen Keenan, (1851), p. 174.

In the Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, we read:
Q. Which is the Sabbath day?
A. Saturday is the Sabbath day.
Q. Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea, (AD 336) transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday….
Q. Why did the Catholic Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?
A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday, because Christ rose from the dead on a Sunday, and the Holy Ghost descended upon the Apostles on a Sunday.
Q. By what authority did the Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?
A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday by the plenitude of that divine power which Jesus Christ bestowed upon her!
—Rev. Peter Geiermann, C.SS.R., (1946), p. 50.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Example: You claim Jesus never said that the Sabbath was abrogated. But what He DID SAY, very clearly, mind you, you choose to ignore:

Mat 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.

Not "represents" not "is a symbol of" but IS.

Even more clear here:

Jhn 6:53
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Jhn 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 6:55
For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

Not only are these clear and unambiguous statements, they are what Christians have believed and taught from the very beginning.

I'm sure you had a point to make here but maybe you could help me out with what Sabbath has to do with Jesus telling us that His words are the bread of life and that eternal life is found in His shed blood?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Great stuff!

I like it when somebody speaks his mind in an open manner!

Keep it up!!!!!

So you enjoy brethren disagreeing over Biblical doctrine do you?

You can be sure Jesus is weeping over the state of Christianity today and it is Satan that is goading and encouraging dissension.

 

[Light of the East]

I'm sure you had a point to make here but maybe you could help me out with what Sabbath has to do with Jesus telling us that His words are the bread of life and that eternal life is found in His shed blood?

The point was that you take certain parts of the Scriptures quite literally, as in regarding the Sabbath, and will brook no other interpretation of it, yet you do not treat the rest of the Scriptures in the same way.

 

[Light of the East]

Do you not even believe what your own denomination has written? They admitted they changed the day of worship from Sabbath to Sunday... it is you choice whether you want to obey the doctrines of man over the doctrines of God but know the Church won't save you in the end. As a matter of fact, we are told that those that don't separate from her system of worship will receive of the plagues kept in store for her.... I'll pray that the Spirit open your eyes of understanding before it's too late.

Well, first of all, they are not a "denomination." Denominations started with the Reformation. Prior to that, there was only one Church, which was what Jesus intended all along.

As for salvation, you are mistaken there also. If you look at the Scriptures, you will find that salvation is always found within the congregation of God, or the Church. Salvation is not individual, it is corporate. Christ came to save His Church, or the congregation of those who believe in Him. The Church is called His Bride. To be in the Church is to be in the Bride and thus in relationship with Him.

Christ gave to the Church the authority to change the Sabbath from the day of prophesied rest to the actual day of rest. Those who celebrate Saturday as the Sabbath are still under the Law which says that the Messiah is yet to come. Sunday was the day of Resurrection. Without the Resurrection, there is no salvation. This is why the devil hates it so much. It was the Resurrection which spelled out his final defeat.

Acting in Christ's authority, which was given to the Apostles and the bishops after them, the Church came to understand that the Saturday Sabbath belongs to the Old Covenant, just as circumcision does. Circumcision became baptism, the Passover became the Eucharist, and the Saturday Sabbath which pointed to Christ became the Sunday worship of Christ's victory over death.

I find it odd that you would take the word of a woman who came 1800 years after Christ and the Apostles and declared that 1800 years had it all wrong. Of course, this is the same thing that the Jehovah Witnesses say, the Mormons, the Calvinists, in fact, everyone who has come after the Reformation says this. Do you see a theme here?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

The point was that you take certain parts of the Scriptures quite literally, as in regarding the Sabbath, and will brook no other interpretation of it, yet you do not treat the rest of the Scriptures in the same way.

Probably because Jesus showed and asked of me that keeping the Commandments was the way to love Him and the Father by obedience, just as He was obedient to His Father.

Scripture shows that the apostles taught and preached on the Sabbath.... even John in 90 AD was shown and recorded the significance of the Sabbath. You see, the Sabbath was written from one end of the Bible to the other and never annulled. Any legal covenant has to be officially annulled as the ceremonial laws were when Jesus said on the cross, "it is finished" and the veil in the temple was torn from top to bottom. An event that was prophesied to happen. Annulling the Sabbath Commandment, would have resulted in a much greater show of authority with even more prophetic announcements against it, of which there are none.

 

[Soyeong]

The Sabbath is part of the 10 Commandments, the other festivals and feasts pointed to Christ and He came..

Did Jesus give an example of how to observe God's feasts?

Are Christians supposed to follow his example? Or is following his example just for the Jews?

The Fall feasts point to Messiah's second coming, which hasn't happened yet, but his first coming doesn't negate the feasts that point to that either. In fact, fully understanding Passover as pointing to Messiah as our Passover lamb makes it even more important to keep, not less. It is a rehearsal of what we will be doing during his reign. We are still to follow Messiah's example, to have a holy conduct by keeping His holy days, and to refrain from sin in disobedience to God's law.

 

[Soyeong]

Indeed that is true.

BUT - and it is a big but - HE was speaking to an entirely Jewish audience:

Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

Then is following Messiah just for the Jews? If following him is not just for the Jews, then why does the distinction of who he was talking to matter?

 

[Soyeong]

Well, first of all, they are not a "denomination." Denominations started with the Reformation. Prior to that, there was only one Church, which was what Jesus intended all along.

Denomination are not just a Protestant thing because there are also many Catholic denominations. Putting them all on the Reformation is just Catholic propaganda.

Christ gave to the Church the authority to change the Sabbath from the day of prophesied rest to the actual day of rest. Those who celebrate Saturday as the Sabbath are still under the Law which says that the Messiah is yet to come. Sunday was the day of Resurrection. Without the Resurrection, there is no salvation. This is why the devil hates it so much. It was the Resurrection which spelled out his final defeat.

Acting in Christ's authority, which was given to the Apostles and the bishops after them, the Church came to understand that the Saturday Sabbath belongs to the Old Covenant, just as circumcision does. Circumcision became baptism, the Passover became the Eucharist, and the Saturday Sabbath which pointed to Christ became the Sunday worship of Christ's victory over death.

At no point was any authority ever give to countermand God. We are command not to add to or subtract from God's law, so that is a sin that the Catholic church needs to repent of (Deuteronomy 4:2). It is fine to celebrate Messiah's resurrection on Sunday, or any day of the week, or every day of the week, or once a month, or once a year, etc., as a matter of human tradition, but at no point does that countermand God's instructions to keep the Sabbath on the 7th day or change the fact that the 7th day is the day that God blessed and sanctified. The Sabbath was given before the Old Covenant in Exodus 16, so while it was commanded as part of the Old Covenant it does not belong to it, but rather it belongs to God:

Leviticus 23:1-2 The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, These are the appointed feasts of the Lord that you shall proclaim as holy convocations; they are my appointed feasts.

At no point did circumcision become baptism, did Passover become the Eucharist, or did the Sabbath switch to Sunday. Perhaps it is so according to human tradition, but not according to what God has commanded, and we must obey God rather than man.

 

[CaptainToad]

As for salvation, you are mistaken there also. If you look at the Scriptures, you will find that salvation is always found within the congregation of God, or the Church. Salvation is not individual, it is corporate. Christ came to save His Church, or the congregation of those who believe in Him. The Church is called His Bride. To be in the Church is to be in the Bride and thus in relationship with Him.

With all due respect, but this is a little bit too far fetched.

How can one say Salvation is not individual? It always is individual. Not in the sense that there is gonna be just one person to be saved in the end (I really dont think you have meant that). Then of course it will be corporate if you think about all people saved, they will make a whole group, I can agree with the word corporate in this context. But each and every one will be saved individually. There will people saved from long before the church existed, and I think also people who never even heard about the church.

Salvation is always found in Jesus, it is not the church who saves, it is Jesus who saves. He has dies on the cross to save me and you. Remember those two guys who died with him on the cross, one was saved because Jesus told him, individually I would say.

Being a member of the church doesnt guarantee anything. Like you have already said, there is bad fish everywhere. Jesus spoke about it, too (tares and the wheat). In fact He made it quite clear, that there will be some people speaking in his name and not be saved (Matthew 25 go and check).

So speaking about some corporate salvation can be quite some dangerous teaching I would say.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

The Church is called His Bride. To be in the Church is to be in the Bride and thus in relationship with Him.

Actually, if you study it out, the bride is new Jerusalem... we (the redeemed) are invited guests to the marriage of the lamb to the bride.

 

[Light of the East]

Scripture shows that the apostles taught and preached on the Sabbath.... even John in 90 AD was shown and recorded the significance of the Sabbath. You see, the Sabbath was written from one end of the Bible to the other and never annulled. Any legal covenant has to be officially annulled as the ceremonial laws were when Jesus said on the cross, "it is finished" and the veil in the temple was torn from top to bottom. An event that was prophesied to happen. Annulling the Sabbath Commandment, would have resulted in a much greater show of authority with even more prophetic announcements against it, of which there are none.

I gave you the verse. Exodus 31:16 Maybe if I give you multiple translations it will make an impact on you.

New International Version
The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant.

New Living Translation
The people of Israel must keep the Sabbath day by observing it from generation to generation. This is a covenant obligation for all time.

English Standard Version
Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever.

New American Standard Bible
'So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.'

King James Bible
Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The Israelites must observe the Sabbath, celebrating it throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.

International Standard Version
The Israelis are to keep the Sabbath to make the Sabbath observance a perpetual covenant from generation to generation.

NET Bible
The Israelites must keep the Sabbath by observing the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
The Israelites must observe this day of worship, celebrating it for generations to come as a permanent reminder of my promise.

JPS Tanakh 1917
Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

New American Standard 1977
‘So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.’

Jubilee Bible 2000
Therefore the sons of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their ages for a perpetual covenant.

King James 2000 Bible
Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

American King James Version
Why the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

American Standard Version
Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Let the children of Israel keep the sabbath, and celebrate it in their generations. It is an everlasting covenant

Darby Bible Translation
And the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations -- [it is] an everlasting covenant.

English Revised Version
Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

Webster's Bible Translation
Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

World English Bible
Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

Young's Literal Translation
and the sons of Israel have observed the sabbath; to keep the sabbath to their generations is a covenant age-during,

NO COVENANT = NO SABBATH.

It is really that simple. You just don't wish to see it and are doing theological and hermeneutical gymnastics to avoid what this verse says in all of its translations.

 

[Light of the East]

Any legal covenant has to be officially annulled as the ceremonial laws were when Jesus said on the cross, "it is finished" and the veil in the temple was torn from top to bottom. An event that was prophesied to happen. Annulling the Sabbath Commandment, would have resulted in a much greater show of authority with even more prophetic announcements against it, of which there are none.

It was not the ceremonial laws which were ended when Christ died. You have failed to look at the "big picture." What was the Holiest of All used for? It was specifically for one thing and one thing only - and that was NOT the ceremonial laws. It was for Yom Kippur (Lev. 16) which was the ceremony of covenant renewal done yearly to remove the sins of the nation of israel and keep it in covenant with God.

The fact that the Holiest of All was exposed to human eyes (remember, only the high priest could go in there and only on the Day of Atonement) shows us that the Holiest of All was now defiled and unfit for use in Yom Kippur. Like a good lawyer figuring out facts, you need to put these facts together and come up with the right conclusion - there was no more Old Covenant because there was no more way to renew it with the yearly sacrifice. It was done.

Your other statement in blue is a pure assumption.

 

[Light of the East]

Denomination are not just a Protestant thing because there are also many Catholic denominations. Putting them all on the Reformation is just Catholic propaganda.

You don't know what you are talking about. You don't understand what comprises a denomination.

A denomination is a sui-juris (self-governing) body which answers to no one else other than itself. Thus there are three denominations of Lutherans: WELS, ELCA, and Wisconsin Synod. WELS have no authority over ELCA or WS. Do you get the picture here?

The same is true for Fundamentalists: Bob Jones Fundamentalist assemblies are each independent and each has its own authority - its pastor. The Presbyterians have three separate distinctions that I know of: OPC, PCA, and PCUSA. Again, if a PCA leader tried to give orders to an OPC church they would tell him - possibly none too politely - to go pound sand.

This is NOT TRUE of the Catholic Church. There are 24 different ethnic variations of the Catholic faith, but ONE AND ONE ONLY LEADER.

You are disseminating a lie to say that there are denominations in the Catholic Church. There is one Church with one leader and only one on earth. There are different ethnic expressions of that Church, with different ways of expressing worship, but that it ethnic. The difference is that in denominations, you have different doctrines. Baptists reject paedo-baptism. Fundamentalists reject hierarchical authority and liturgical worship. Heck, some Fundamentalists even disagree with other Fundamentalists. I remember our pastor scalding Jack Hyles from his pulpit.

At no point was any authority ever give to countermand God. We are command not to add to or subtract from God's law, so that is a sin that the Catholic church needs to repent of (Deuteronomy 4:2).

We used to have a saying in the South where I was born and raised. You, sir, are as full of stuffin' as a Christmas turkey. The Catholic faith is the fulfillment of all the OT prophesied. You are just pushing typical anti-Catholic boilerplate.

It is fine to celebrate Messiah's resurrection on Sunday, or any day of the week, or every day of the week, or once a month, or once a year, etc., as a matter of human tradition, but at no point does that countermand God's instructions to keep the Sabbath on the 7th day or change the fact that the 7th day is the day that God blessed and sanctified.

Then why would He attach it to the Covenant in Exodus 31: 16, knowing that the Jews would destroy that covenant and render it null and void?

The Sabbath was given before the Old Covenant in Exodus 16, so while it was commanded as part of the Old Covenant it does not belong to it, but rather it belongs to God:

Leviticus 23:1-2 The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, These are the appointed feasts of the Lord that you shall proclaim as holy convocations; they are my appointed feasts.

Yeah, and those feasts have found fulfillment in the feasts of the New Covenant.

At no point did circumcision become baptism, ( Wrong - Colossians 2: 11 -12) did Passover become the Eucharist, (Wrong - Jesus changes Passover to Eucharist - Mat 26:26; Mar 14:22: Luke 22:19 ) or did the Sabbath switch to Sunday. (Wrong again - Old Covenant is finished. Sabbath worship belongs to Old Covenant - Exodus 31:16) Perhaps it is so according to human tradition, but not according to what God has commanded, and we must obey God rather than man.

I agree with your last statement, therefore, when Jesus says this:

Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

and also this:

1Ti 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

And then He promises - PROMISES - that the Church will not be overcome by the gates of hell (Matt. 16: 18)

then I am not going to listen to some Johnny-Come-Lately who comes along 1800 years after Christ and the Apostles and starts teaching something which is A.) totally new B.) based on a highly questionable spiritual experience C.) denies the Covenant and D. denies the promise of Christ to protect His Church.

AIN'T
HAPPENING!!!

 

[Light of the East]

Actually, if you study it out, the bride is new Jerusalem... we (the redeemed) are invited guests to the marriage of the lamb to the bride.

I will not argue with that Scripture, but could it be that rather than set up a dichotomy between the two, could not the Church be both Bride and New Jerusalem.

Why do you feel that one could not be the other?

 

[CaptainToad]

I will not argue with that Scripture, but could it be that rather than set up a dichotomy between the two, could not the Church be both Bride and New Jerusalem.

Why do you feel that one could not be the other?

Just out of curiosity. You said, that before you were totally anti-catholic. Now you are quite a fervent catholic.

What is your view on non-catholics? Are they also gonna be saved?
Is salvation exclusive to the catholic church? (I got that feeling when reading your post!)

 

[Light of the East]

Just out of curiosity. You said, that before you were totally anti-catholic. Now you are quite a fervent catholic.

What is your view on non-catholics? Are they also gonna be saved?
Is salvation exclusive to the catholic church? (I got that feeling when reading your post!)

The Scriptures teach us that salvation is much wider than we realize. The Catholic Church, as well as the Holy Orthodox, do not give allowance to say who is and who ain't saved. I am not God and I do not have that right, nor do I know the hearts of other people. How can I judge what is in your heart or what is in the hearts of others?

The Church (congregation of God) - the eklessia or qahal - is the vehicle by which God normally saves people. It was in the congregation of God that the sacrifices of sin existed for the people of the OT. It is in the Church that the Sacraments of Christ exist to unite us with Christ in the NT. The Church has the fullness of the faith, which means that in the Church you can find the best of the Christian faith. The best simply means that the Catholic faith is a life in which we experience a closeness to Christ which is tangible through the reality of the Eucharist being Christ Himself. The Sacraments bring Him to us in a form we can see and touch. And isn't that what we all want, those of us who are pursuing Christ.

But if you are out of the Church, does that mean that you do not love Christ? Of course not. I have met many people who are not Catholic of whom I thought after leaving them "That guy (or gal) is probably a much better Christian than I am."

And what of the many obstacles which are placed in the way of people that didn't exist 1000 years ago? A thousand years ago there was only one Church - Roman in the West, Holy Orthodox in the East. Most people knew what it stood for and a rejection of the Church was a clear defiance to God that you didn't want anything to do with Him or His Christ. Not so clear now. Many people have been filled with fear by things written about the Church which are utterly untrue but keep being promoted to this day, long after they have been proven false. Some of them would be laughable if they were not so tragically sad and showed such ignorance and lack of theological clarity.

The thought of becoming Catholic (or Orthodox) therefore, can be filled with confusion and fear. Confusion because of a lack of good exegesis on the part of Catholics and Orthodox, and fear of losing one's soul. That last one was a biggie for me and a lot of converts.

So how are you to be blamed or condemned by God for having all these things against you? You may never be able to overcome the things that have been falsely said about the Catholic faith. You may never be open to looking at the Bible in a manner (exegesis) which proves the Catholic faith. But do you love Jesus? How can I say no? I say that your salvation is between you and God

HOWEVER

the safest place to be, in my opinion, is in the Church rather than out of it. Mind you, that is no guarantee, for as we have seen, there have been devils in the Church since God started His earthly congregation with Moses in the wilderness. But if you can get over your fears and open up to really study the Bible and see that there are other ways of looking at the Scriptures, then perhaps you can overcome your fears.

One final thought here, if I may. Ten years ago I would have answered this question differently. It took me a while to realize that it was pride that made me say "Oh, yeah, not in the Church, going to hell. End of discussion." I think it's that kind of pride we all feel, a desire to make ourselves feel better about ourselves by looking down upon those who are not like we are. This is a lesson I am still working on. You wouldn't believe how many times I have to go back and edit posts because I've been a proud jerk with people - people whom God loves.

We forget that. We have this picture of God's love as conditional rather than unconditional. And we base that condition upon our fidelity to doctrine (and I am not saying that truth is not important) rather than our living God's love to others. Hard lesson to learn!!!

1Co 13:1 If with the tongues of men and of messengers I speak, and have not love, I have become brass sounding, or a cymbal tinkling;

1Co 13:2

and if I have prophecy, and know all the secrets, and all the knowledge, and if I have all the faith, so as to remove mountains, and have not love, I am nothing;

1Co 13:3

and if I give away to feed others all my goods, and if I give up my body that I may be burned, and have not love, I am profited nothing.

Salvation is up to God. Sharing what I found out about the historic faith of Christianity, which came to be called "katholicos" in the second century - that is up to me.