Does anyone think they will go to hell?

[Curious Atheist]

This may seem like a silly question with an obvious answer, but I am curious if any truly honest answers might come forward.

It just seems that everyone will agree that getting in to heaven isn’t easy, also there are so many variations of Christianity alone, that nobody can know who is right or wrong. Maybe some, most or everyone is overlooking something very important? Perhaps just believing in God is all that you need to earn your place with God and really it is just about avoiding sin and hell, but then there wouldn’t be so many rules and commandments or the need to try and live by Jesus’ example.

I am referring more specifically to excuse-making to cover one’s own sins. I can admit that if there is a God I would go straight to hell for being a non-believer, yet I can also admit that I would like to believe a loving God wouldn’t condemn me just for being sceptical and would appreciate science studying his creation, if it is indeed his creation.

There are great examples in the thread I made asking whether gluttony is a sin (I think the majority rule was that it is, so I will stick with the example). Statistically speaking (and from many reliable sources from large medical surveys) 33.8% of American adults are obese and approx. 17% of American Children (just OBESE, not even counting over weight!). The stats also suggest that anything from 70-90% of Americans are Christian, but this is a more difficult and less reliable thing to measure. But either way, it is the majority of the population. So there is surely a large number of obese Christians, how do we know this isn’t enough to earn your place in hell? No-one can know so is there anyone who can openly admit that if they died tomorrow they would probably go to hell? I find it arrogant that everyone thinks they are righteous enough to be with God whilst justifying their own sins with weak excuses like ‘have you seen a $1 menu, not everyone can afford to eat healthily’. If you feared hell you would find a way, or go hungry every now and then to avoid obesity.


I am not trying to have a go at people who like food, as after all I don’t think it is a sin or it makes you a bad person. But I am curious if everyone justifies their own actions going against the word of the Bible (which refers to hell more than heaven which is hardly described at all, suggesting hell is potentially the default? My own speculation based on the little I have learned of course).

Thanks in advance, with a special thanks to the honest replies.

 

[drich0150]

This may seem like a silly question with an obvious answer, but I am curious if any truly honest answers might come forward.

It just seems that everyone will agree that getting in to heaven isn’t easy, also there are so many variations of Christianity alone, that nobody can know who is right or wrong. Maybe some, most or everyone is overlooking something very important? Perhaps just believing in God is all that you need to earn your place with God and really it is just about avoiding sin and hell, but then there wouldn’t be so many rules and commandments or the need to try and live by Jesus’ example.

I am referring more specifically to excuse-making to cover one’s own sins. I can admit that if there is a God I would go straight to hell for being a non-believer, yet I can also admit that I would like to believe a loving God wouldn’t condemn me just for being skeptical and would appreciate science studying his creation, if it is indeed his creation.

There are great examples in the thread I made asking whether gluttony is a sin (I think the majority rule was that it is, so I will stick with the example). Statistically speaking (and from many reliable sources from large medical surveys) 33.8% of American adults are obese and approx. 17% of American Children (just OBESE, not even counting over weight!). The stats also suggest that anything from 70-90% of Americans are Christian, but this is a more difficult and less reliable thing to measure. But either way, it is the majority of the population. So there is surely a large number of obese Christians, how do we know this isn’t enough to earn your place in hell? No-one can know so is there anyone who can openly admit that if they died tomorrow they would probably go to hell? I find it arrogant that everyone thinks they are righteous enough to be with God whilst justifying their own sins with weak excuses like ‘have you seen a $1 menu, not everyone can afford to eat healthily’. If you feared hell you would find a way, or go hungry every now and then to avoid obesity.


I am not trying to have a go at people who like food, as after all I don’t think it is a sin or it makes you a bad person. But I am curious if everyone justifies their own actions going against the word of the Bible (which refers to hell more than heaven which is hardly described at all, suggesting hell is potentially the default? My own speculation based on the little I have learned of course).

Thanks in advance, with a special thanks to the honest replies.

I believe the fundamental flaw in your assessment is that you seem to want to tie our righteousness before God to our works or adherence to "Christian law." If this was God's measure then we all would deserve Hell. Like your assumption with obesity. You are basically saying being fat is a damnable sin, no matter the reasons, when in fact the bible has no such command.
Members of a specific sect of Christianity have taken a "frowned upon" behavior and made it a sin, much like how they have with marriage for their clergy. Either way our "right-ness" before God is not determined by our ability to keep what you understand to be Christian law.. That is also why we can have so many different denominations (because no one in absolutely right) we are all Dependant of God's grace (We meaning all Christ centered believers.) This grace is conditional, and those conditions are found with in our two greatest commands. If "we" can meet these two conditions then we are ripe to received His grace.

 

[Curious Atheist]

I believe the fundamental flaw in your assessment is that you seem to want to tie our righteousness before God to our works or adherence to "Christian law." If this was God's measure then we all would deserve Hell.

Then why do you have any Christian law if they aren’t to be adhered to? It seems a little silly to have rules no-one needs to follow, it defies the definition of rules or law. Isn’t this just the excuse making I referred to?

Like your assumption with obesity. You are basically saying being fat is a damnable sin, no matter the reasons, when in fact the bible has no such command.

It is one example, my question is broader than that. However, you become obese by eating more calories than you burn off, simple fact. Some may have genuine medical problems which make it difficult, but God would know of these exceptions (certainly not a 1/3 of the US population). If you read the Bible literally there are a plethora of rules that more modern Christianity has, for whatever reason, decided not to follow anymore. Nowhere does it state in the Bible these rules can be forgotten, so how do you know you aren’t committing a damnable sin every day? Homosexuality isn’t expressly said to be a sin, yet that is followed with a hateful fury by the masses so why not gluttony?

Members of a specific sect of Christianity have taken a "frowned upon" behavior and made it a sin, much like how they have with marriage for their clergy. Either way our "right-ness" before God is not determined by our ability to keep what you understand to be Christian law..

Am I just ignorant to think you get closer to God by accepting his rules and love, whilst staying sin-free. Am I just misinterpreting everything Jesus is quoted as preaching in the name of God?

That is also why we can have so many different denominations (because no one in absolutely right) we are all Dependant of God's grace (We meaning all Christ centered believers.) This grace is conditional, and those conditions are found with in our two greatest commands. If "we" can meet these two conditions then we are ripe to received His grace.

Would those two commandments be love God and love thy neighbour? Who is he referring to by neighbour? (Let me guess, it is open to interpretation with many different sects). Do you really love your neighbours or do you just try to? I don’t love the neighbour who lives next to me, he plays music too loud in the middle of the night. I have never spoken to the guy as he is new, so I do not love him nor would I love anyone I don’t call a close friend or family. But anyway, by that logic even a Nazi who forced thousands of Jewish children in to the gas chambers can go to heaven as long as he loved God? Or would the Jews be his neighbour? What if you love your wife, but beat her every day? Does that count as love? There are infinite examples where you can follow those rules and still be a terrible human being.

Sounds like excuse making and interpreting what you want to believe to me, but thanks for your contribution

 

[ViaCrucis]

I believe the fundamental flaw in your assessment is that you seem to want to tie our righteousness before God to our works or adherence to "Christian law." If this was God's measure then we all would deserve Hell.

Then why do you have any Christian law if they aren’t to be adhered to? It seems a little silly to have rules no-one needs to follow, it defies the definition of rules or law. Isn’t this just the excuse making I referred to?

Without getting into larger theological issues on, say, something like Justification I think it suffices to say that Christianity doesn't see obedience or good works as ways which we earn our place with God. The purpose of obedience, the point of doing good isn't to win God over or earn ourselves a reward in heaven but rather because being obedient and being good is good in and of itself. We are to be obedient to God because we love Him and we love our neighbor. There shouldn't be any further reason than love itself.

Like your assumption with obesity. You are basically saying being fat is a damnable sin, no matter the reasons, when in fact the bible has no such command.

It is one example, my question is broader than that. However, you become obese by eating more calories than you burn off, simple fact. Some may have genuine medical problems which make it difficult, but God would know of these exceptions (certainly not a 1/3 of the US population). If you read the Bible literally there are a plethora of rules that more modern Christianity has, for whatever reason, decided not to follow anymore. Nowhere does it state in the Bible these rules can be forgotten, so how do you know you aren’t committing a damnable sin every day? Homosexuality isn’t expressly said to be a sin, yet that is followed with a hateful fury by the masses so why not gluttony?

Gluttony, or more appropriately over-indulgence, doesn't simply refer to food. It can be anything. The reason why Christian Tradition regards it as one of the "seven deadly sins" is because as Christians we should be self-controlled.

Members of a specific sect of Christianity have taken a "frowned upon" behavior and made it a sin, much like how they have with marriage for their clergy. Either way our "right-ness" before God is not determined by our ability to keep what you understand to be Christian law..

Am I just ignorant to think you get closer to God by accepting his rules and love, whilst staying sin-free. Am I just misinterpreting everything Jesus is quoted as preaching in the name of God?

I think further investigation couldn't hurt. At no point does Jesus tell anyone how they can "get to heaven", in fact no where in the Bible is that found. Jesus is far less interested in telling people how they can get to heaven as He is concerned with how they can get a little bit of heaven down here.

That is also why we can have so many different denominations (because no one in absolutely right) we are all Dependant of God's grace (We meaning all Christ centered believers.) This grace is conditional, and those conditions are found with in our two greatest commands. If "we" can meet these two conditions then we are ripe to received His grace.

Would those two commandments be love God and love thy neighbour? Who is he referring to by neighbour? (Let me guess, it is open to interpretation with many different sects). Do you really love your neighbours or do you just try to? I don’t love the neighbour who lives next to me, he plays music too loud in the middle of the night. I have never spoken to the guy as he is new, so I do not love him nor would I love anyone I don’t call a close friend or family. But anyway, by that logic even a Nazi who forced thousands of Jewish children in to the gas chambers can go to heaven as long as he loved God? Or would the Jews be his neighbour? What if you love your wife, but beat her every day? Does that count as love? There are infinite examples where you can follow those rules and still be a terrible human being.

When Jesus was asked, "Who is my neighbor?" His response was to tell the story of the Good Samaritan. Translation: Everyone is my neighbor.

Sounds like excuse making and interpreting what you want to believe to me, but thanks for your contribution

You're probably under the assumption that the Bible is basically a rule book. That's not how most Christians understand or read the Bible, in fact it's never been how most Christians engage the Bible. Rather we engage it as a multifaceted collection of texts through which we hear God speaking to us as we are invited to encounter Jesus Christ. We don't call it God's word because God wrote it, we call it God's word because, in faith, we believe God is still speaking to us through it.

In Lutheranism we have what's called the Law and Gospel Dialectic. That refers to the fact that Scripture contains both God's commands (what we ought to do, but usually fail to do) and God's promises, Law and Gospel respectively.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[IndieVisible]

I learned a long time ago it's not worth arguing with atheists, total waste of mindless time

So why bother?

 

[Curious Atheist]

[FONT=&quot]Without getting into larger theological issues on, say, something like Justification I think it suffices to say that Christianity doesn't see obedience or good works as ways which we earn our place with God. The purpose of obedience, the point of doing good isn't to win God over or earn ourselves a reward in heaven but rather because being obedient and being good is good in and of itself. We are to be obedient to God because we love Him and we love our neighbor. There shouldn't be any further reason than love itself.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Then why does Christianity exist? If you removed God from your equation you are just left with loving thy neighbour, add this with no thought of heaven or hell you are just describing atheism. It makes the Bible seem very unimportant, which to me doesn’t seem like Christianity in it’s true sense, more your own belief system.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Gluttony, or more appropriately over-indulgence, doesn't simply refer to food. It can be anything. The reason why Christian Tradition regards it as one of the "seven deadly sins" is because as Christians we should be self-controlled. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]But the obese are showing extremely poor self-control, so they are not obeying God out of love so therefore don’t love God enough to not eat too much. Would this not follow your interpretation and still lead to hell?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I think further investigation couldn't hurt. At no point does Jesus tell anyone how they can "get to heaven", in fact no where in the Bible is that found. Jesus is far less interested in telling people how they can get to heaven as He is concerned with how they can get a little bit of heaven down here.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]But surely there are things that Christians do such as persecute homosexuals which make the world less heavenly? So couldn’t this be interpreted as evil (like the way most non-Christians see this prejudice hate) and again, going against what God wants and lead to hell? Isn’t persecuting homosexuality or non-Christians pretty unloving of one’s neighbour? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]When Jesus was asked, "Who is my neighbor?" His response was to tell the story of the Good Samaritan. Translation: Everyone is my neighbor.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It would be a lie to suggest you can love everyone. I thought Jesus also taught it was OK to defend yourself and hate those who deserve it? How can you do both? I would never love a Nazi or paedophile, would you?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]You're probably under the assumption that the Bible is basically a rule book. That's not how most Christians understand or read the Bible, in fact it's never been how most Christians engage the Bible. Rather we engage it as a multifaceted collection of texts through which we hear God speaking to us as we are invited to encounter Jesus Christ. We don't call it God's word because God wrote it, we call it God's word because, in faith, we believe God is still speaking to us through it. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I was under the assumption there were certain rules you need to follow to get closer to God (ten commandments at the very least). I thought the main principles relied on avoiding sin and being as selfless as possible. What you are describing to me isn’t what I would have understood to be Christianity. Maybe more replies will confirm what you say entirely, or maybe as every question I have asked suggests there will be a multitude of contradictory and varied opinions.

In Lutheranism we have what's called the Law and Gospel Dialectic. That refers to the fact that Scripture contains both God's commands (what we ought to do, but usually fail to do) and God's promises, Law and Gospel respectively.

[/FONT]I see, is Lutheranism one of the more commonly practiced branches of Christianity?


Looking at everything you have said in context, why would Jesus need to die for our sins if we don’t really have much in the way of sin. If we love everyone (which again, I think is impossible or at the very least dangerous) and love God then nothing else really matters, so what was the purpose of Jesus and his death that doesn’t contradict your views? I feel I may have misinterpreted what you are explaining though, as it really doesn’t fit in with anything I have learned so far.

 

[Curious Atheist]

I learned a long time ago it's not worth arguing with atheists, total waste of mindless time

So why bother?

You haven't taken your lesson to heart if you come to the outreach section of the forum and post replies like this.

Jesus clearly stated you should spread the word of God and try to save the unbelievers from damnation. Since you have refused to, I imagine I will see you in hell...well I don't really

 

[HaveHope]

I think you've figured out that no one can earn salvation by doing good works. None of us is capable, none of us is good enough. The only way we are saved is by God's grace.

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

 

[ViaCrucis]

[FONT=&quot]Without getting into larger theological issues on, say, something like Justification I think it suffices to say that Christianity doesn't see obedience or good works as ways which we earn our place with God. The purpose of obedience, the point of doing good isn't to win God over or earn ourselves a reward in heaven but rather because being obedient and being good is good in and of itself. We are to be obedient to God because we love Him and we love our neighbor. There shouldn't be any further reason than love itself.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Then why does Christianity exist? If you removed God from your equation you are just left with loving thy neighbour, add this with no thought of heaven or hell you are just describing atheism. It makes the Bible seem very unimportant, which to me doesn’t seem like Christianity in it’s true sense, more your own belief system.[/FONT]

Christianity exists as a religion to follow Jesus Christ. Why would I remove God from the equation? Why does this make the Bible unimportant? If your understanding of Christianity is that it's a religion about earning brownie points with a big grey haired dude in the sky so we can live in clouds and strum harps all day long whilst whistling in glee as the vast masses of mankind burn in a very large subterranean cauldron then you probably should be willing to open your mind a bit and read up on more serious understandings of our faith.

[FONT=&quot]

Gluttony, or more appropriately over-indulgence, doesn't simply refer to food. It can be anything. The reason why Christian Tradition regards it as one of the "seven deadly sins" is because as Christians we should be self-controlled. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]But the obese are showing extremely poor self-control, so they are not obeying God out of love so therefore don’t love God enough to not eat too much. Would this not follow your interpretation and still lead to hell?[/FONT]

Sure. And as a fat man I can tell you that I don't control myself as often as I'd like. Sometimes I buy a cheeseburger instead of making a salad.

And no, I don't think eating bacon means one is damned.

[FONT=&quot]

I think further investigation couldn't hurt. At no point does Jesus tell anyone how they can "get to heaven", in fact no where in the Bible is that found. Jesus is far less interested in telling people how they can get to heaven as He is concerned with how they can get a little bit of heaven down here.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]But surely there are things that Christians do such as persecute homosexuals which make the world less heavenly? So couldn’t this be interpreted as evil (like the way most non-Christians see this prejudice hate) and again, going against what God wants and lead to hell? Isn’t persecuting homosexuality or non-Christians pretty unloving of one’s neighbour? [/FONT]

Yes it is wrong to persecute members of the LGBT community. Christians are called to love everyone.

[FONT=&quot]

When Jesus was asked, "Who is my neighbor?" His response was to tell the story of the Good Samaritan. Translation: Everyone is my neighbor.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]It would be a lie to suggest you can love everyone. I thought Jesus also taught it was OK to defend yourself and hate those who deserve it? How can you do both? I would never love a Nazi or paedophile, would you?[/FONT]

I don't read where Jesus told us to defend ourselves, in fact I recall quite specifically that He instructs us to turn the other cheek and that whoever lives by the sword will die by the sword. As far as your statement about "hating those who deserve it", nobody deserves to be hated. Love is supposed to be impartial. And I would certainly hope I'd have the strength to love a Nazi or a pedophile. If I'm failing to love the unlovely then I'm not doing my job as a Christian.

[FONT=&quot]

You're probably under the assumption that the Bible is basically a rule book. That's not how most Christians understand or read the Bible, in fact it's never been how most Christians engage the Bible. Rather we engage it as a multifaceted collection of texts through which we hear God speaking to us as we are invited to encounter Jesus Christ. We don't call it God's word because God wrote it, we call it God's word because, in faith, we believe God is still speaking to us through it. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I was under the assumption there were certain rules you need to follow to get closer to God (ten commandments at the very least). I thought the main principles relied on avoiding sin and being as selfless as possible. What you are describing to me isn’t what I would have understood to be Christianity. Maybe more replies will confirm what you say entirely, or maybe as every question I have asked suggests there will be a multitude of contradictory and varied opinions.

There are going to be many different opinions. I can only speak from how I practice Christianity which is influenced by the theologians I admire--the same as other Christians.

In Lutheranism we have what's called the Law and Gospel Dialectic. That refers to the fact that Scripture contains both God's commands (what we ought to do, but usually fail to do) and God's promises, Law and Gospel respectively.

[/FONT]I see, is Lutheranism one of the more commonly practiced branches of Christianity?

We're the original Protestants, in fact this coming Hallowe'en will be the 494th anniversary of the Reformation. Luther nailed his 95 Theses on the church door in Wittenberg on October 31, 1517.

Looking at everything you have said in context, why would Jesus need to die for our sins if we don’t really have much in the way of sin. If we love everyone (which again, I think is impossible or at the very least dangerous) and love God then nothing else really matters, so what was the purpose of Jesus and his death that doesn’t contradict your views? I feel I may have misinterpreted what you are explaining though, as it really doesn’t fit in with anything I have learned so far.

I haven't suggested sin doesn't matter or that it's not a problem. Sin is very much a problem. Sin, however, isn't a list of "bad things" but is rather our condition of missing the mark. It's our failure to do what we ought as well as our doing what we ought not. We screw up, regularly, we call that sin. We hurt one another, we fail to support each other, we turn our backs toward others.

Christ came to reconcile us, not only to God but also to one another. In Christ God and man are united together, hypostatically, in the Incarnation. By His death God has become an active participant in our suffering, becoming a victim of our own inhumanity toward man. What His death means is that God cannot be said to be "out there", God has become one with us, in our misery, in our sorrow, in our troubles and, yes, even in our sin in that He has become victim, become another person destroyed by our violence, greed, and arrogance. The gospel proclamation, though, is that Christ has risen from the dead, He has defeated the powers of sin and death, He has vanquished Hell and chained the devil, crushing him underfoot. God has taken humanity--human nature--united it to Himself and destroyed every hindrance, every obstacle separating us from the fullness of God and from the fullness of being human. That is, in a word, salvation.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Curious Atheist]

I think you've figured out that no one can earn salvation by doing good works. None of us is capable, none of us is good enough. The only way we are saved is by God's grace.

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

I do understand the notion that heaven cannot be bought. But surely God does pick and choose those who have shown some factor he is said to have described? So surely there must be some guidelines to follow to better your chances, as according to scripture only Jesus was perfect and Adam and Eve tainted themselves after being created perfect. So like you said it isn't fair to be held to the standard of Jesus, but wouldn't someone who is trying to emulate Jesus be 'better' in God's eyes? So surely there must be rules for this? All I am asking is that if some of these rules are difficult to follow like gluttony, surely some must doubt their chances of heaven? Why does no-one have any lingering doubt they won't make it in to heaven?

 

[HaveHope]

I do understand the notion that heaven cannot be bought. But surely God does pick and choose those who have shown some factor he is said to have described? So surely there must be some guidelines to follow to better your chances, as according to scripture only Jesus was perfect and Adam and Eve tainted themselves after being created perfect. So like you said it isn't fair to be held to the standard of Jesus, but wouldn't someone who is trying to emulate Jesus be 'better' in God's eyes? So surely there must be rules for this? All I am asking is that if some of these rules are difficult to follow like gluttony, surely some must doubt their chances of heaven? Why does no-one have any lingering doubt they won't make it in to heaven?

We are not saved by works, so there really is nothing we can do to "better our chances" at salvation. We are totally and completely at the mercy of God alone. We strive to not sin and do good works out of the love we have for God and neighbor, but this is not done in order to look better in God's eyes. We don't love in order to earn reward or avoid punishment--that is not love, but a selfish desire for our own personal comfort.

We are saved only by the grace of God and His mercy. That is what the Bible teaches. I'm not sure where you get the idea that no one doubts their salvation, though. Many people doubt precisely because they think that they sinned too much or don't have enough faith (as if faith is a work) to be saved. But if we rely on God alone for our salvation and not ourselves, then we have assurance that God will be faithful to us and save us as He promises in the Bible.

 

[Hakan101]

I do understand the notion that heaven cannot be bought. But surely God does pick and choose those who have shown some factor he is said to have described? So surely there must be some guidelines to follow to better your chances, as according to scripture only Jesus was perfect and Adam and Eve tainted themselves after being created perfect. So like you said it isn't fair to be held to the standard of Jesus, but wouldn't someone who is trying to emulate Jesus be 'better' in God's eyes? So surely there must be rules for this? All I am asking is that if some of these rules are difficult to follow like gluttony, surely some must doubt their chances of heaven? Why does no-one have any lingering doubt they won't make it in to heaven?

You are right, things like gluttony are hard to follow. But God sends his Holy Spirit into us, and so when people truly "emulate" Jesus, it is because God is the one doing the emulating inside of them. We cannot do it all on our own.

If we have faith in Jesus as our savior, we are saved, period. Even in the very worst case, if we did not grow our faith or build a foundation of our lives under God, at the end if we still truly believed, Jesus said we would be still saved, but it would be like a man escaping his house as it burned to the ground.

Honestly, it wasn't until I became Christian myself that I realized why other Christians don't fear Hell. There's just so much more to God than Heaven and Hell, it's like everyone tries to box him in these two concepts. For the people who reject God, Hell is all they'll ever think of, because they don't know him.

 

[drich0150]

Then why do you have any Christian law if they aren’t to be adhered to?

To identify sin in your life.

It seems a little silly to have rules no-one needs to follow, it defies the definition of rules or law. Isn’t this just the excuse making I referred to?

Only if you have not read the bible.

It is one example, my question is broader than that. However, you become obese by eating more calories than you burn off, simple fact. Some may have genuine medical problems which make it difficult, but God would know of these exceptions (certainly not a 1/3 of the US population). If you read the Bible literally there are a plethora of rules that more modern Christianity has, for whatever reason, decided not to follow anymore.

Such as?

Nowhere does it state in the Bible these rules can be forgotten, so how do you know you aren’t committing a damnable sin every day?

I am, everyday. what you fail to understand or acknowledge is so are all the rest of us as well.(If you read your bible you would understand this)

Homosexuality isn’t expressly said to be a sin,

Indeed it is. Would you like to see the book chapter and verse?

yet that is followed with a hateful fury by the masses so why not gluttony?

again one is identified as a sin, and the other is not. we can have a strong dislike for sin, but nowhere are we to transfer the dislike for sin to the sinner.

Am I just ignorant to think you get closer to God by accepting his rules and love, whilst staying sin-free.

That's just it, no one can live sin free. (Not even the pope) That is precisely why we have "Christian rules" so as to remind ourselves that no one is sin free and that our righteousness can not be obtained by trying to live a sin free life. Righteousness is a gift given through atonement, and can only be excepted by one who follows our greatest commands.

Am I just misinterpreting everything Jesus is quoted as preaching in the name of God?

Apparently.

Would those two commandments be love God and love thy neighbor?

No. Our greatest commands are to Love our God with all of our Heart Mind Spirit and Strength, and the second is to love our neighbor as our self. Simple "love" for either is not enough.

Who is he referring to by neighbor?

The man standing next to you. In my case the man asking the questions.

(Let me guess, it is open to interpretation with many different sects).

keep reading

Do you really love your neighbors or do you just try to?

I put the same effort as I give myself. I give opportunity as I have been given and take opportunity back as it has been taken. I do not over give as I do not see this as beneficial, but I do give beyond my limits when I see the need and know the person receiving it would not get that help, if I did not give it. So yes.

I don’t love the neighbor who lives next to me, he plays music too loud in the middle of the night. I have never spoken to the guy as he is new, so I do not love him nor would I love anyone I don’t call a close friend or family. But anyway, by that logic even a Nazi who forced thousands of Jewish children in to the gas chambers can go to heaven as long as he loved God?

Did He love His neighbor as his self?? Neighbor, Being the Jews He placed in the gas chamber?

Or would the Jews be his neighbor?

Ironically "Neighbor" in the OT text refers to countrymen (other Jews) However in this text Christ states (In the parable of the good Samaritan) that anyone in need has now become your neighbor. I would say that one being marched into a gas chamber is one in need.

What if you love your wife, but beat her every day? Does that count as love?

It depends on why you beat her. I know it would be hard to justify a daily beating for anyone, but the underlining principle is this: It is not what you do that defines love, it is why you are doing it.

There are infinite examples where you can follow those rules and still be a terrible human being.

What rules are you speaking of? Do you still not understand that Biblical Christianity is "freedom" from the rules?

Sounds like excuse making and interpreting what you want to believe to me, but thanks for your contribution

That's funny to me, your challenges sound like excuse making for not personally studying the bible with an open heart and/or mind for God. It also sounds like you are trying to dismiss what you are not familiar with for your bigoted view of God, the bible, and Christianity as a whole. Forgive me for not caving in under you dismissive attitude, but I do want to thank you for your questions, because even if your intentions were less than honorable, your questions will be used to help others grow in their understandings and faith.

 

[GrayAngel]

This may seem like a silly question with an obvious answer, but I am curious if any truly honest answers might come forward.

It just seems that everyone will agree that getting in to heaven isn’t easy, also there are so many variations of Christianity alone, that nobody can know who is right or wrong. Maybe some, most or everyone is overlooking something very important? Perhaps just believing in God is all that you need to earn your place with God and really it is just about avoiding sin and hell, but then there wouldn’t be so many rules and commandments or the need to try and live by Jesus’ example.

I am referring more specifically to excuse-making to cover one’s own sins. I can admit that if there is a God I would go straight to hell for being a non-believer, yet I can also admit that I would like to believe a loving God wouldn’t condemn me just for being sceptical and would appreciate science studying his creation, if it is indeed his creation.

There are great examples in the thread I made asking whether gluttony is a sin (I think the majority rule was that it is, so I will stick with the example). Statistically speaking (and from many reliable sources from large medical surveys) 33.8% of American adults are obese and approx. 17% of American Children (just OBESE, not even counting over weight!). The stats also suggest that anything from 70-90% of Americans are Christian, but this is a more difficult and less reliable thing to measure. But either way, it is the majority of the population. So there is surely a large number of obese Christians, how do we know this isn’t enough to earn your place in hell? No-one can know so is there anyone who can openly admit that if they died tomorrow they would probably go to hell? I find it arrogant that everyone thinks they are righteous enough to be with God whilst justifying their own sins with weak excuses like ‘have you seen a $1 menu, not everyone can afford to eat healthily’. If you feared hell you would find a way, or go hungry every now and then to avoid obesity.


I am not trying to have a go at people who like food, as after all I don’t think it is a sin or it makes you a bad person. But I am curious if everyone justifies their own actions going against the word of the Bible (which refers to hell more than heaven which is hardly described at all, suggesting hell is potentially the default? My own speculation based on the little I have learned of course).

Thanks in advance, with a special thanks to the honest replies.

Sin does not disqualify you for Heaven. We all sin. Even David, "a man after God's own heart," was an adulterer and a murderer.

No one will ever get into Heaven by being perfect. In the Bible, God says to the people locked outside of Heaven that He never knew them. In contrast, the people on the inside are the ones He always knew. It's the relationship that counts.

Yes, good deeds do matter. Faith without works is dead. But works without faith are like dirty rags. Good works that come from a living faith are the evidence of salvation.

Do I think I'm going to Hell? No. I have no reason to think so. I believe in God, I believe in the Bible, and I apply it to my life. My faith is the number one most important thing to me.

Of course, many Christians do think that it's enough just to believe that God exists, but they don't know the Bible or believe in it, and so they cannot live it out. People who lack salvation typically don't know it.

 

[razeontherock]

Well since you value honesty, here is a rather startling Scripture:

Psalm 22:29 All [they that be] fat upon earth shall eat and worship"

What is this saying? If we back out a bit, to take in the context better, I think you'll find it's saying exactly what it looks like it is saying:

"My praise [shall be] of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him. The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever. All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. For the kingdom [is] the LORD'S: and he [is] the governor among the nations. All [they that be] fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul."

So I think G-d is telling us that our own divisions and expectations of who is "in or out," are all petty. (You'll also see the Bible define it's own use of the word "generation" in the very next verse, and this has come up frequently in discussions here, but I digress)

really it is just about avoiding sin and hell, but then there wouldn’t be so many rules and commandments or the need to try and live by Jesus’ example.

Just avoiding sin? JUST avoiding sin?!? Your statement here defies logic; please reconsider. "Living by Jesus' example," (in quotes due to the fact of as if any of us did that) and commandments seem to center around the task of avoiding sin. And yet what does God Himself say about this?

"You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your own blood, striving against sin."

Please notice that this is addressed not merely to Christians, but to the most devout, and best educated Christians. I think G-d would like us to be *a bit* more concerned with avoiding sin!

I am referring more specifically to excuse-making to cover one’s own sins.

There is a recent / current thread on this very thing, in the Christian only section. Someone who's opinion I value very much due to their Scriptural knowledge put it, that forgiveness for repeated / habitual sin, you know, the type that doesn't harm anyone else and we can all justify to ourselves as being "not so bad," is predicated on our desire and effort to stop it.

The concept of "sincerity" comes to mind here. It's seems to be a big deal to G-d.

I can admit that if there is a God I would go straight to hell for being a non-believer, yet I can also admit that I would like to believe a loving God wouldn’t condemn me just for being sceptical and would appreciate science studying his creation, if it is indeed his creation.

This is an idea that has gotten a lot of airplay recently. Or maybe G-d has drawn my attention to it, just to make me consider it? I dunno, but I have no good response to this. I do know for a fact that He motivates us to learn about the world we live in.

But I am curious if everyone justifies their own actions going against the word of the Bible (which refers to hell more than heaven which is hardly described at all, suggesting hell is potentially the default?

There are certainly factions within Christianity that teach hell as "the default." It appears that this was not what the early Church taught, which should make me wonder where the idea came from? A HUGE aspect of this Faith, is that ALL of it was "once delivered to the Saints," which does mean it leaves NO room for ... making up new stuff later. If you haven't noticed, I like to strip away all the junk, and get to what really matters.

Turning towards G-d and away from sin seems to really matter. And that is the correct order.

 

[razeontherock]

The purpose of obedience, the point of doing good isn't to win God over or earn ourselves a reward in heaven but rather because being obedient and being good is good in and of itself. We are to be obedient to God because we love Him and we love our neighbor. There shouldn't be any further reason than love itself.

Jesus is far less interested in telling people how they can get to heaven as He is concerned with how they can get a little bit of heaven down here.

We don't call it God's word because God wrote it, we call it God's word because, in faith, we believe God is still speaking to us through it.

A collection of some great statements!!

 

[razeontherock]

But surely God does pick and choose those who have shown some factor he is said to have described? So surely there must be some guidelines to follow to better your chances

Sometimes what we think about, is not really our primary concern. Our sub-conscious is a powerful thing!

It seems that you are expressing a misconception here. I wince as I consider posting this, but Einstein said "God does not play dice." Out of context thought it is, it applies here. The Christian life is not about increasing our chances, nor beating the odds. Please attempt to compare this to Faith as a concept, and hopefully you will see the dilemma.

We are told to "labor to enter into rest." There are many paradoxes in Christianity, but they are all very meaningful. Personally, I find I need to understand them at a very deep level, but then I need to ignore the understanding to put it into practice. (This same concept appears in Eastern belief systems)

Christianity is described as "the Faith of Abraham." Understanding Grace is no easy task! Yet what you are driving at, is the difference between law and Grace. I literally do not know a good Church that hasn't had a teaching series on this. To understand this, it needs to be both sought and taught. And yet some manage to put it into practice with seemingly 0 intellectual understanding of any of it ...

wouldn't someone who is trying to emulate Jesus be 'better' in God's eyes? So surely there must be rules for this?

This is not Christianity! This looks an awful lot like Jesus' description of those He refers to by saying, "depart from Me, for I never knew you." Instead, Christianity is Christ in you, the Hope of Glory.

 

[chris4243]

There are great examples in the thread I made asking whether gluttony is a sin (I think the majority rule was that it is, so I will stick with the example). Statistically speaking (and from many reliable sources from large medical surveys) 33.8% of American adults are obese and approx. 17% of American Children (just OBESE, not even counting over weight!). The stats also suggest that anything from 70-90% of Americans are Christian, but this is a more difficult and less reliable thing to measure. But either way, it is the majority of the population. So there is surely a large number of obese Christians, how do we know this isn’t enough to earn your place in hell?

Proverbs 13:4 The soul of the sluggard desireth, and hath nothing: but the soul of the diligent shall be made fat.

Proverbs 11:25 The liberal soul shall be made fat: and he that watereth shall be watered also himself.

Proverbs 28:25 He that putteth his trust in the LORD shall be made fat.


We Americans are fat because we're diligent, liberal, and we trust in the LORD. God bless America.

 

[chris4243]

1 Corinthians 6:9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Just so you know, the verse doesn't really mean that you can't go to heaven if you're greedy, a drunkard, or any of those minor sins. Once you're saved, whatever you were before is forgotten and whatever you still are no matter how bad doesn't really matter because otherwise you wouldn't be saved now would you.

 

[razeontherock]

Chris, in these last two posts it's hard to see how you are "advocating for Truth." I do try to give people the benefit of the doubt, but could you clarify?

Maybe I should also add Proverbs 15:30, "a good report maketh the bones fat."

There are many such passages, but neither of us takes them literally. Incidentally, all these passages use the same Hebrew word, which also means anoint, prosperity, and to take ashes away. While it seems like an interesting word study, it doesn't seem like it will help our OP ...