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Does anyone else have mixed thoughts about the apostle Paul?

Izdaari Eristikon

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I fully understand if you all would rather I not post here again.

I am truly sorry for every hurtful thing I said to all who were the victims of my insane psychotic rage.

:cry:
Not at all. We all have failings, yet Christ forgives us all, and commands us to forgive each other... and to forgive ourselves too, for it is pride to hold ourselves to a higher standard than even God does. So, all is forgiven. :prayer: :hug: :holy:
 
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Joykins

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On a lighter note, you realized that you achieved nearly the impossible, a bunch of liberal Christians saying nice things about Paul ^_^

More seriously, :hug: stick around. We all have our moments and it takes character to admit a wrong and apologize.
 
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Izdaari Eristikon

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On a lighter note, you realized that you achieved nearly the impossible, a bunch of liberal Christians saying nice things about Paul ^_^
:thumbsup: For sure! Though not all of us who hang out here are liberals... ^_^
 
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Catherineanne

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I'm ashamed to admit it but I am an alcoholic and have been for many years. I've been drinking long enough that I have learned how to moderate my consumption enough so that I don't go nuts.

Avatar, I will amend any of my texts which quote your words. Thank you for apologising. I can forgive you for anything that affected me personally. What I cannot forgive you for, and would not if I could, is your self destruction, and your denial. There is no such thing as an alcoholic who can brew their own beer and remain safe.

And now some tough love. I will tell you about David. I was married to David for six years when our d was born, some 14 years ago. Up until this point he seemed to hold it all together, but after this point he could not cope. He thought he was the only person bringing a wage into the house and the pressure became too much for him. In fact I was on maternity leave, and there was money, but he could not understand. Within months he was drinking out of control, and less than a year after our d was born he was sacked from his job. He drank before this, but in secret. It gradually became more and more obvious.

I insisted that he get support, and for four years I stood beside him while he did it. He was in alcohol rehab for 12 months, and then was given a supported flat on the alcohol rehab project. At this point he got a job. The alcohol people get a lot of money from the council and health authority for looking after alcoholics, and they then tried to get that same money from David, and he did not have it. So I said he could come home, but that it was his very last chance. I asked our d if she wanted daddy home and she said yes, so I allowed him to come home.

He started work in April. By June he was drinking again. I then told him he had run out of chances and had to leave. He said he had nowhere to go, and I told him that was not my problem. He said he would not leave, because it was his house, and I said, if you do not leave, then I will. I will take our d abroad and you will never see her again as long as you live.

It took 2 months to get him out of my house, but he left and went home to his parents in August. By December I was ill with post traumatic stress disorder, and I have not yet recovered, ten years later.

He is now living in a flat in the south of England. Both legs are ulcerated from the knee to the ankle. His liver and kidneys are shot. His mind is gone. He can hardly walk. His skin is yellow, his arms and legs are wasted away, and yet his feet are swollen so much that he has to wear size 14 trainers, when his foot size used to be 9.

And when he sees his parents they buy him beer with his lunch, and give him wine with his dinner. And when I hear that I have to build a brick wall around my heart so that it does not break any more than it is already broken. I have to turn my back on him, for the sake of our d.

There is no such thing as a level of alcohol which is safe for someone with an alcohol problem. The only safe thing to do, if you do not want to die a very prolonged, painful death is no alcohol whatever.

If I did not care about you, I would not say this. I would let you carry on thinking that you are holding the reins of your condition. You are not. You are being led by it, and it is damaging your life, your health and your self esteem. Chances are, in the end it will kill you.

Two years ago David had a brain scan because the doctors wanted to find out what was causing his confusion and blackouts. He rang our d and told her that they had found a brain tumour. This was not true. It was part of his confusion to mistake an investigation for a reality. This year he says he has had gangrene, and we do not know what to believe and what not to believe.

I prepared our d two years ago for her father's death, when we thought the brain tumour was real. And then a couple of weeks later he denied having said it, and said we made it up.

I now have a very confused young lady, who loves her dad very much, but who knows that the best of her dad is gone, and that who we have left is, as you rightly say, some other person. She does not know whether she wants him to live or to die. I taught her the word 'ambivalent' a long time ago, and that it is very possible to love and hate both at the same time.

If you do not want that other person to become all that is left of you, as it is all that is left of the man I married, then please recognise, there is no such thing as a safe level of drink for you. I am a liberal, I am as loving as I can be, but I cannot forgive you for destroying your life bit by bit, just as I cannot forgive my former husband. This much love needs God, because it is beyond me.
 
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UberLutheran

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Darling, the problem is not solved by any action of yours unless you are the source of that problem.

You are not the source of the problem. :hug:

If someone is nauseated because I love the blessed Paul, then that is their problem. Not mine, not yours, and not Paul's. Christ himself commissioned Paul to his mission, and it is not possible, imo, to honour Christ while at the same time denegrating the man he chose to take the gospel into the world.

I'm a little raw right now -- just travelling back from attending the funeral of the uncle who got me into meteorology (who lives in Central Florida) and three difficult days with my father.

I'm glad I've got this long driving trip to help me re-group after being with my father. I finally told him, "Dad, you may not be aware of this, but my first name is NOT "G.d. it, Mark!"
 
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plmarquette

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Does anyone else have mixed thoughts about the apostle Paul?


Am I the only one who feels this way? Personally, when I read the NT, I find him a bit off, fanatical and strange in some of his "teachings". He clearly has problems with women.

1......

The issue of women speaking in church. Now, I'm sure this topic has been covered. However, I feel almost every Christian has been brainwashed and conditioned into a standard response.

That "Paul was talking about disruptive women" being silenced. However, this is complete nonsense. The NT does not say this at all. This is just something made up by the church. Paul clearly says that it is a disgrace for women to speak in a church because they are women. Without a shadow of a doubt, he says that a woman sinned first, that a woman is never to instruct a man, and consequently they are not to speak in church. And I will not debate this, because this is what the scriptures clearly say, and I will not enter into convoluted arguments that attempt to twist it.

This is one of his strange theologies that appears nowhere else in the NT.

2.................

Celibacy. He's a fanatical celebist. He laments that he wishes everybody could be celibate like he is. Now, that on it's own simply could be interpreted as being passionate about his calling that he wishes everyone has. However, he makes a truly odd remark about "young widows". He shows his fanaticism when he lambasts them for "abandoning their first love" when they want to remarry. Very harsh I think.

3..............

Head coverings. Again, showing his problems with women. The idea of head coverings on a woman are that they show their submission by an outward garment. Again, this is an odd theology nowhere else in the NT.

4...............

Men and long hair. He is quite descriptive about how much of an abomination it is for a man to have long hair. Yet another oddball doctrine. This is nowhere else stated in the NT. What about Samson?


Opinions?
Look at the Islamofacists of today... their culture now is similar to what the culture was then ... women were 2nd class citizens ...

Paul did an about face on the damascus road, he returned to build the church with the same zeal he had been destroying it ... sure he had tunnel vision.. but isn't our return, based upon our investment?

Wouldn't God be a bit more impressed with works for the kingdom... feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and imprisoned than he would with our addiction to sports, nascar, reality tv...

some of what paul writes is a bit difficult to read,,, as peter remarked... difficult, for at times it is a mirror to that which needs changed within us , difficult because it admonishes us to get off our blessed assurance, difficult because all believers have a ministry of sorts... and God is waiting for us to "get-er-done"
 
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Gukkor

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Wouldn't God be a bit more impressed with works for the kingdom... feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and imprisoned than he would with our addiction to sports, nascar, reality tv...

Just to clarify, do you mean to imply that the latter activities are evil, or just addiction to them?
 
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UberLutheran

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I guess your alcoholism met my codependency last night, and the result was like throwing cesium into a tub of water.

When I say I'm codependent, I'm not just "a little" codependent: I have a pedigree. Two alcoholic parents, two alcoholic grandparents, alcoholic uncles and aunts, and three consecutive alcoholic boyfriends (all now ex-boyfriends).

Three days with my dad, and all I need was a detonater...

Make you a deal, Avatar: I'll forgive your momentary bit of ill humor and you forgive my momentary bit of ill humor, and we'll call it even.


 
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Avatar

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Thank you for you forgiveness, it means a lot, but you haven't done anything you need to ask my forgiveness for. I was completely in the wrong. Thank you and God bless, brother. :hug:

And I'm sorry to hear about your Uncle's passing and your relationship with your Dad. You are in my prayers.
 
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Avatar

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Avatar, I will amend any of my texts which quote your words. Thank you for apologising. I can forgive you for anything that affected me personally. What I cannot forgive you for, and would not if I could, is your self destruction, and your denial. There is no such thing as an alcoholic who can brew their own beer and remain safe.

And now some tough love. I will tell you about David. I was married to David for six years when our d was born, some 14 years ago. Up until this point he seemed to hold it all together, but after this point he could not cope. He thought he was the only person bringing a wage into the house and the pressure became too much for him. In fact I was on maternity leave, and there was money, but he could not understand. Within months he was drinking out of control, and less than a year after our d was born he was sacked from his job. He drank before this, but in secret. It gradually became more and more obvious.

I insisted that he get support, and for four years I stood beside him while he did it. He was in alcohol rehab for 12 months, and then was given a supported flat on the alcohol rehab project. At this point he got a job. The alcohol people get a lot of money from the council and health authority for looking after alcoholics, and they then tried to get that same money from David, and he did not have it. So I said he could come home, but that it was his very last chance. I asked our d if she wanted daddy home and she said yes, so I allowed him to come home.

He started work in April. By June he was drinking again. I then told him he had run out of chances and had to leave. He said he had nowhere to go, and I told him that was not my problem. He said he would not leave, because it was his house, and I said, if you do not leave, then I will. I will take our d abroad and you will never see her again as long as you live.

It took 2 months to get him out of my house, but he left and went home to his parents in August. By December I was ill with post traumatic stress disorder, and I have not yet recovered, ten years later.

He is now living in a flat in the south of England. Both legs are ulcerated from the knee to the ankle. His liver and kidneys are shot. His mind is gone. He can hardly walk. His skin is yellow, his arms and legs are wasted away, and yet his feet are swollen so much that he has to wear size 14 trainers, when his foot size used to be 9.

And when he sees his parents they buy him beer with his lunch, and give him wine with his dinner. And when I hear that I have to build a brick wall around my heart so that it does not break any more than it is already broken. I have to turn my back on him, for the sake of our d.

There is no such thing as a level of alcohol which is safe for someone with an alcohol problem. The only safe thing to do, if you do not want to die a very prolonged, painful death is no alcohol whatever.

If I did not care about you, I would not say this. I would let you carry on thinking that you are holding the reins of your condition. You are not. You are being led by it, and it is damaging your life, your health and your self esteem. Chances are, in the end it will kill you.

Two years ago David had a brain scan because the doctors wanted to find out what was causing his confusion and blackouts. He rang our d and told her that they had found a brain tumour. This was not true. It was part of his confusion to mistake an investigation for a reality. This year he says he has had gangrene, and we do not know what to believe and what not to believe.

I prepared our d two years ago for her father's death, when we thought the brain tumour was real. And then a couple of weeks later he denied having said it, and said we made it up.

I now have a very confused young lady, who loves her dad very much, but who knows that the best of her dad is gone, and that who we have left is, as you rightly say, some other person. She does not know whether she wants him to live or to die. I taught her the word 'ambivalent' a long time ago, and that it is very possible to love and hate both at the same time.

If you do not want that other person to become all that is left of you, as it is all that is left of the man I married, then please recognise, there is no such thing as a safe level of drink for you. I am a liberal, I am as loving as I can be, but I cannot forgive you for destroying your life bit by bit, just as I cannot forgive my former husband. This much love needs God, because it is beyond me.
Thank you for sharing this. You have given me a lot to think and pray about. :hug:
 
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UberLutheran

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Thank you for you forgiveness, it means a lot, but you haven't done anything you need to ask my forgiveness for. I was completely in the wrong. Thank you and God bless, brother. :hug:

And I'm sorry to hear about your Uncle's passing and your relationship with your Dad. You are in my prayers.

In the grand scheme of life, most things are belly-button lint.

When my uncle showed me the home movie he made of Hurricane Donna (one of the most infamous of landfalling U.S. hurricanes), including the passage of the eyewall into the eye, I was hooked for life on meteorology.

It was kind of like throwing liquid oxygen on the smoldering coals of my interest, followed by gallons upon gallons of gasoline! :D

Also, when I say I'm "codependent" -- I'm not just a little codependent: the day I came home from the hospital following rectal surgery from Hell, I surveyed the house, decided that the carpet really needed vacuuming, then the kitchen and living room needed mopping, then I decided it would be a good idea to get the laundry done and the bathrooms cleaned, and our portable refrigerator where we store soft drinks really ought to be defrosted -- and THEN the anaesthetic wore off!

I was in bed for four days after that -- but at least the house was clean so I could groan in agony in a clean house!

Mark
 
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Catherineanne

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Also, when I say I'm "codependent" -- I'm not just a little codependent: the day I came home from the hospital following rectal surgery from Hell, I surveyed the house, decided that the carpet really needed vacuuming, then the kitchen and living room needed mopping, then I decided it would be a good idea to get the laundry done and the bathrooms cleaned, and our portable refrigerator where we store soft drinks really ought to be defrosted -- and THEN the anaesthetic wore off!

:hug:

Re-interpret it as nesting, maybe? I spend a lot of my time recovering from one thing or another in my room, and it certainly helps recovery if it is clean and tidy first. And conversely, if my house is in a mess, it brings me down and I end up bad tempered and snappy.

I am sorry you had to do all this for yourself, though, UL. :)
 
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Catherineanne

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Thank you for sharing this. You have given me a lot to think and pray about. :hug:

Thinking is good. Praying is very good. And best of all is throwing all that beer making equipment into the rubbish bin, and the beer down the toilet, where it belongs, and investing in a juicer instead. Don't even think about giving it away, or taking it to a charity shop or anything. Just get rid of it.

:wave:
 
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Catherineanne

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When I say I'm codependent, I'm not just "a little" codependent: I have a pedigree. Two alcoholic parents, two alcoholic grandparents, alcoholic uncles and aunts, and three consecutive alcoholic boyfriends (all now ex-boyfriends).

:hug: :hug: :hug:
 
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Followers4christ

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Does anyone else have mixed thoughts about the apostle Paul?


Am I the only one who feels this way? Personally, when I read the NT, I find him a bit off, fanatical and strange in some of his "teachings". He clearly has problems with women.

Men and women have different roles,but are equal in the eyes of God (Galatians 3:28).Men are told to be the head of church and marriage.Men are told to never be harsh or deprive their wives,but to love their wives as Christ loves his church (1 Peter 3:7,Ephesians 5:25,Colossians 3:19,1 Corinthians 7:5,1 Timothy 5:8).Submission does not mean that a wife does not have input.Sarah, (the example of submission in 1 Peter 3:6) gave Abraham input which God said he was to follow (Genesis 21:11-12).A Godly wife is worth far more than all the rubies and treasures of this world (Proverbs 31:10-12).Godly wivies should submit out of love towards their husbands and God.God Bless

This does not come from just Paul but through out the whole bible for which God is the author.


Genesis 3:16 To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."

1 Corinthians 11:3"Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God."

Colossians 3:18"Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord."

1 Peter 3:5-6"For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands,like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear."

1 Timothy 2:11-14"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission.I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.For Adam was formed first, then Eve.And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner."

Ephesians 5:22-24"Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything."

Titus 2:5"to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God."

1 Corinthians 14:34-35"women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church."
 
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