Does all/ pas mean all or some?

[Servus]

Stick with the topic! I am not arguing either for or against unending torture. The topic seeks to determine whether ALL of humanity will in the end be eternally saved, even those who die in unbelief. Scripture speaks very plainly about this subject, warning all men everywhere to repent and believe the Gospel. Why bother with the warning if all of humanity will be eternally saved anyway?

How can you talk about being saved, while leaving out what one is being saved from?

Has anyone laid this one on you yet?

"But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!" Romans 5:15

That seems to say that all who died because of what Adam did, which is everyone, everyone was made alive because of what Jesus did.

 

[rwb]

How can you talk about being saved, while leaving out what one is being saved from?

Has anyone laid this one on you yet?

"But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!" Romans 5:15

That seems to say that all who died because of what Adam did, which is everyone, everyone was made alive because of what Jesus did.

The passage doesn't say everyone was made alive through Christ. It says "the many died". What many? The same many that by God's grace are made alive through Christ.

Paul had already said that sin entered the world and death by sin through one man. Because of that man the sentence of death has come upon all men, because all have sinned.

Romans 5:12 (KJV) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

But then Paul speaks of the free gift by God's grace, and how through it the offense that brought death through the one man brought death not to ALL, because Paul says, "by the offense of one MANY be dead". All mankind were assigned the sentence of death through Adam, but from ALL only MANY die. Because the gift by grace by the one man, Jesus Christ has abounded only to MANY, not to ALL.

Romans 5:15 (KJV) But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

By the offense of Adam death reigns over ALL mankind. But "THEY" not ALL which receive through grace the gift of righteousness shall reign in life through Jesus Christ.

Romans 5:17 (KJV) For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Just as judgment by the offense of one came to ALL humanity to condemnation, so too the free gift by righteousness unto justification of life came upon ALL humanity. Does that mean every human will be saved through Christ? The answer is NO, read on, what else does Paul say.

Romans 5:18 (KJV) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Through Adam MANY, not all were made sinners, so that by the obedience of one MANY shall be made righteous. The same MANY made sinners are the MANY made righteous through Christ. Not ALL, but MANY. What MANY? The MANY who receive grace through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 5:19-21 (KJV) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Not ALL humanity is made alive by Christ! To be made alive in Christ one MUST believe in Him, being born again by the gift of righteousness through Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit. Those who physically die without believing Christ for eternal life will not be among the MANY who obtain eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[FineLinen]

The passage doesn't say everyone was made alive through Christ. It says "the many died". What many? The same many that by God's grace are made alive through Christ.

The identical many dying in Adam, are the ones being made alive in the Last. Every last one.

Many made sinners = many made righteous.

 

[rwb]

The identical many dying in Adam, are the ones being made alive in the Last. Every last one.

Many made sinners = many made righteous.

I fully agree! MANY not ALL! Because from the ALL those many who came under condemnation of death are no longer condemned because through Christ the same MANY assigned to death are the MANY made righteous through Christ. I'm glad we finally agree. Not all who are assigned to death are made righteous through Christ and freed from condemnation to death. Those who are not among the MANY made righteous through Christ will die in their sins and will be called as "the dead" to stand before God in judgment according to what is found written in the books and the book of life. Whosoever is not found written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire eternally.

 

[FineLinen]

I fully agree! MANY not ALL!

The identical many made sinners are the many made righteous.

Many = many

 

[rwb]

The identical many made sinners are the many made righteous.

Many = many

Did you fail to notice, we agree? MANY not ALL, Amen!

 

[P1LGR1M]

The identical many made sinners are the many made righteous.

Many = many

So where do we see "all" here...


John 3:36
King James Version

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


...?


God bless.

 

[Servus]

The passage doesn't say everyone was made alive through Christ. It says "the many died". What many? The same many that by God's grace are made alive through Christ.

Paul had already said that sin entered the world and death by sin through one man. Because of that man the sentence of death has come upon all men, because all have sinned.

Romans 5:12 (KJV) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

But then Paul speaks of the free gift by God's grace, and how through it the offense that brought death through the one man brought death not to ALL, because Paul says, "by the offense of one MANY be dead". All mankind were assigned the sentence of death through Adam, but from ALL only MANY die. Because the gift by grace by the one man, Jesus Christ has abounded only to MANY, not to ALL.

Romans 5:15 (KJV) But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

By the offense of Adam death reigns over ALL mankind. But "THEY" not ALL which receive through grace the gift of righteousness shall reign in life through Jesus Christ.

Romans 5:17 (KJV) For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Just as judgment by the offense of one came to ALL humanity to condemnation, so too the free gift by righteousness unto justification of life came upon ALL humanity. Does that mean every human will be saved through Christ? The answer is NO, read on, what else does Paul say.

Romans 5:18 (KJV) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Through Adam MANY, not all were made sinners, so that by the obedience of one MANY shall be made righteous. The same MANY made sinners are the MANY made righteous through Christ. Not ALL, but MANY. What MANY? The MANY who receive grace through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 5:19-21 (KJV) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Not ALL humanity is made alive by Christ! To be made alive in Christ one MUST believe in Him, being born again by the gift of righteousness through Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit. Those who physically die without believing Christ for eternal life will not be among the MANY who obtain eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

It sounds to me like Paul is referring to all mankind in both cases throughout Romans 5:12-21. The augment that the first "many" equals everyone, but not the second "many" and the first "all" means everyone, but not the second "all" sounds like a less convincing interpretation.

 

[rwb]

It sounds to me like Paul is referring to all mankind in both cases throughout Romans 5:12-21. The augment that the first "many" equals everyone, but not the second "many" and the first "all" means everyone, but not the second "all" sounds like a less convincing interpretation.

Give one example from Scripture where many is translated ALL???

Many means abundant as in Rev 7:9 where we find in heaven an "innumerable multitude". But that does not represent all.

Many =
Strong's Greek Dictionary
4183. πολύς polys (polýs)
Search for G4183 in KJVSL; in KJV.
πολύς polýs, pol-oos'

including the forms from the alternate πολλός pollós; (singular) much (in any respect) or (plural) many; neuter (singular) as adverbial, largely; neuter (plural) as adverb or noun often, mostly, largely:—abundant, + altogether, common, + far (passed, spent), (+ be of a) great (age, deal, -ly, while), long, many, much, oft(-en (-times)), plenteous, sore, straitly.

 

[FineLinen]

Did you fail to notice, we agree? MANY not ALL, Amen!

We simply do not agree! NOT!!



I fully agree! MANY not ALL! Because from the ALL those many who came under condemnation of death are no longer condemned because through Christ the same MANY assigned to death are the MANY made righteous through Christ. I'm glad we finally agree. Not all who are assigned to death are made righteous through Christ and freed from condemnation to death. Those who are not among the MANY made righteous through Christ will die in their sins and will be called as "the dead" to stand before God in judgment according to what is found written in the books and the book of life. Whosoever is not found written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire eternally.

Many are sinners, the identical many are made righteous.

The Divine Lake of theion & theioo, like our God of FIRE, I suggest you probe much, much deeper.

 

[Servus]

Give one example from Scripture where many is translated ALL???

Many means abundant as in Rev 7:9 where we find in heaven an "innumerable multitude". But that does not represent all.

Many =
Strong's Greek Dictionary
4183. πολύς polys (polýs)
Search for G4183 in KJVSL; in KJV.
πολύς polýs, pol-oos'

including the forms from the alternate πολλός pollós; (singular) much (in any respect) or (plural) many; neuter (singular) as adverbial, largely; neuter (plural) as adverb or noun often, mostly, largely:—abundant, + altogether, common, + far (passed, spent), (+ be of a) great (age, deal, -ly, while), long, many, much, oft(-en (-times)), plenteous, sore, straitly.

Paul affirms "many" seen in Romans 5:15 as being "all" as seen in Romans 5:18. Plus we know that "the many died by the trespass of the one man" has to pertain to all mankind. Which again is backed up by "one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people".

 

[FineLinen]

We simply do not agree! NOT!!

The Lake of Divinity

Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series

 

[rwb]

Paul affirms "many" seen in Romans 5:15 as being "all" as seen in Romans 5:18. Plus we know that "the many died by the trespass of the one man" has to pertain to all mankind. Which again is backed up by "one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people".

How do you reconcile Paul saying death passed upon ALL men, for ALL have sinned? How can only MANY die since Paul says death passed upon ALL? Do you consider Paul to be contradictory fool?

Romans 5:12 (KJV) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

 

[FineLinen]

How do you reconcile Paul saying death passed upon ALL men, for ALL have sinned? How can only MANY die since Paul says death passed upon ALL?

Death indeed encompasses all mankind, for all mankind has sinned. Not only has mankind sinned, their very nature dictates the foundation. It must be changed!

Adam1 = many made sinners

Last Adam = the identical many made righteous.

 

[rwb]

Death indeed encompasses all mankind, for all mankind has sinned. Not only has mankind sinned, their very nature dictates the foundation. It must be changed!

Adam1 = many made sinners

Last Adam = the identical many made righteous.

Yes to pass from death to life we must believe on Christ. And those who in life believe has everlasting lifle, and has passed from death to life. Only THEY THAT HEAR the voice of the Son of God NOW (in this age) shall live.

John 5:24-25 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

 

[Servus]

How do you reconcile Paul saying death passed upon ALL men, for ALL have sinned? How can only MANY die since Paul says death passed upon ALL? Do you consider Paul to be contradictory fool?

Romans 5:12 (KJV) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

It's quite clear to me that Paul is using "the many" and "all" interchangeably throughout Romans 5:12-21.

"the many died by the trespass of the one man" Romans 5:15

"one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people" Romans 5:18

I take note that it's "the many". Comparatives to "the many" are "the masses", "the multitude", "the people", "the public".

 

[FineLinen]

Yes to pass from death to life we must believe on Christ. And those who in life believe has everlasting life, and has passed from death to life. Only THEY THAT HEAR the voice of the Son of God NOW (in this age) shall live.

When you add "Only THEY THAT HEAR the voice of the Son of God NOW (in this age) shall live", you fail to grasp the scope of every being bowing in worship in the heavens, earth & underworld ! ! !

en = in

The identical in/en of saving faith within the Christ

 

[FineLinen]

It's quite clear to me that Paul is using "the many" and "all" interchangeably throughout Romans 5:12-21.

"the many died by the trespass of the one man" Romans 5:15

"one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people" Romans 5:18

I take note that it's "the many". Comparatives to "the many" are "the masses", "the multitude", "the people", "the public".

It is clear to me as well. Much thanks for your posts, they are a breath of fresh life.

 

[Saint Steven]

The passage doesn't say everyone was made alive through Christ. It says "the many died". What many? The same many that by God's grace are made alive through Christ.

Is this the second time you have painted yourself into a corner?

Those outside "the many" that neither died, nor were made alive, are what; alive or dead?

 

[Servus]