Does a 'Thought for Thought' translation or 'Dynamic Equivalence' make a difference?

[reddogs]

In todays world, the average person will say that in reading different versions of the Bible it really seems no different, and it appears that they say the same thing in their eyes. The thing is, that the NIV claims it is a 'Thought for Thought' translation or 'Dynamic Equivalence', but you have to ask, whose thoughts. That is why they may seem to say much the same thing and yet, just a few changes or even words can make a big difference.

Here is one that definitely makes a difference and its done in Gods Ten Commandments:

But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates.

Do you see what they did. Its very subtle, but if you look "the Sabbath" is changed to "a Sabbath". This would broaden the scope of the command to cover ALL sabbaths including 'ceremonial' ones and not just the one made for man on the seventh day, and effectively create confusion within the Bible itself, for God did not create the world in seven days prior to each of the ceremonial sabbaths.

The "ceremonial law" was dealing with forms of worshipping God and with ritual cleanness and judicial precepts came into existence only with the Law of Moses and were only temporary. So the "ceremonial sabbaths" or high sabbaths", were seven annual biblical festivals or feast days, such as Passover which reminded the people of how God took care of them or His blessing to them.

So its a big difference from "the Sabbath" to "a Sabbath". but it would escape most readers, and the subterfuge remain hidden..

 

[The Narrow Way]

In todays world, the average person will say that in reading different versions of the Bible it really seems no different, and it appears that they say the same thing in their eyes. The thing is, that the NIV claims it is a 'Thought for Thought' translation or 'Dynamic Equivalence', but you have to ask, whose thoughts. That is why they may seem to say much the same thing and yet, just a few changes or even words can make a big difference.

Here is one that definitely makes a difference and its done in Gods Ten Commandments:

But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates.

Do you see what they did. Its very subtle, but if you look "the Sabbath" is changed to "a Sabbath". This would broaden the scope of the command to cover ALL sabbaths including 'ceremonial' ones and not just the one made for man on the seventh day, and effectively create confusion within the Bible itself, for God did not create the world in seven days prior to each of the ceremonial sabbaths.

The "ceremonial law" was dealing with forms of worshipping God and with ritual cleanness and judicial precepts came into existence only with the Law of Moses and were only temporary. So the "ceremonial sabbaths" or high sabbaths", were seven annual biblical festivals or feast days, such as Passover which reminded the people of how God took care of them or His blessing to them.

So its a big difference from "the Sabbath" to "a Sabbath". but it would escape most readers, and the subterfuge remain hidden..

If the NIV was trying to do away with THE SABBATH, they didn't do a very good job, @reddogs ~

The KJV uses the term THE SABBATH 46 times and the NIV uses the term THE SABBATH 40 times

 

[GDL]

Looks like it literally says, the seventh day [is] sabbath ___ YHWH. The "is" is being inserted. The "a" or "the" sabbath are also being inserted. The blank can mean a few different things: to, for, from, belonging to, according to...

The deletion of "YHWH" is also a problem. A quick search shows 6,800+ times its used.

So much confusion...

 

[The Narrow Way]

In todays world, the average person will say that in reading different versions of the Bible it really seems no different, and it appears that they say the same thing in their eyes. The thing is, that the NIV claims it is a 'Thought for Thought' translation or 'Dynamic Equivalence', but you have to ask, whose thoughts. That is why they may seem to say much the same thing and yet, just a few changes or even words can make a big difference.

Here is one that definitely makes a difference and its done in Gods Ten Commandments:

But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates.

Do you see what they did. Its very subtle, but if you look "the Sabbath" is changed to "a Sabbath". This would broaden the scope of the command to cover ALL sabbaths including 'ceremonial' ones and not just the one made for man on the seventh day, and effectively create confusion within the Bible itself, for God did not create the world in seven days prior to each of the ceremonial sabbaths.

The "ceremonial law" was dealing with forms of worshipping God and with ritual cleanness and judicial precepts came into existence only with the Law of Moses and were only temporary. So the "ceremonial sabbaths" or high sabbaths", were seven annual biblical festivals or feast days, such as Passover which reminded the people of how God took care of them or His blessing to them.

So its a big difference from "the Sabbath" to "a Sabbath". but it would escape most readers, and the subterfuge remain hidden..

@reddogs , if you go and read the NIV in CONTEXT, on BOTH sides of the verse you quoted, it uses THE SABBATH.... You are completely taking the NIV out of context to claim that it is doing away with the 7th Day Sabbath.

Exo 20:8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.

Exo 20:9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work,

Exo 20:10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns.

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.​

 

[reddogs]

@reddogs , if you go and read the NIV in CONTEXT, on BOTH sides of the verse you quoted, it uses THE SABBATH.... You are completely taking the NIV out of context to claim that it is doing away with the 7th Day Sabbath.

Exo 20:8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.

Exo 20:9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work,

Exo 20:10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns.

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.​

It is what it is..
Exodus 20:9-11
New International Version

9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

 

[The Narrow Way]

It is what it is..
Exodus 20:9-11
New International Version

9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

@reddogs , it is correct, THE SABBATH (verse 8) IS A SABBATH. Verses 8 and 11, on both sides of the verse you found fault with, CLEARLY state that the 7th Day is THE SABBATH. So why are you trying to make a MOUNTAIN out of a MOLE HILL?

 

[reddogs]

@reddogs , it is correct, THE SABBATH (verse 8) IS A SABBATH. Verses 8 and 11, on both sides of the verse you found fault with, CLEARLY state that the 7th Day is THE SABBATH. So why are you trying to make a MOUNTAIN out of a MOLE HILL?

But not "the" Sabbath, big difference. They try to be subtle, but the purpose is clear, need to discern..

 

[The Narrow Way]

But not "the" Sabbath, big difference. They try to be subtle, but the purpose is clear, need to discern..

I don't see anything sneaky or subtle. You do agree, don't you, that THE SABBATH was also considered A SABBATH? Remember there were OTHER SABBATHS. If they were trying to do away with THE SABBATH as the 7th Day, they certainly wouldn't have called it THE SABBATH on both sides of that verse.

 

[reddogs]

I don't see anything sneaky or subtle. You do agree, don't you, that THE SABBATH was also considered A SABBATH? Remember there were OTHER SABBATHS. If they were trying to do away with THE SABBATH as the 7th Day, they certainly wouldn't have called it THE SABBATH on both sides of that verse.

Lets see if the ceremonial were the same. Here are the ceremonial sabbaths in the SOP...

"Ceremonial Sabbaths
Leviticus 23:7, 8, 21, 24, 25, 27, 32, 39. There are seven ceremonial Sabbaths as follows:- 1. 16th of Abib; 2. 23rd of Abib; 3. Pentecost; 4. 1st of the 7th month; 5. 10th of the 7th month; 6. 15th of the 7th month; 7. 22nd of the 7th month. These were annual Sabbaths, coming only once a year. As they always came on the same day of the month, they would come only occasionally on the 7th day of the week.

? Colossians 2:16, 17. These Sabbaths were all shadows of things to come.

? Hebrews 9:8-11. The types, or shadowy service, ceased at the cross. The Desire of Ages, 774.

? Matthew 27:50-51. At the death of Christ God rent the vail of the temple, thus showing that the shadowy service had ended.

? Hebrews 9:10; Romans 14:1-6; Colossians 2:16. All of these ceremonial Sabbaths were connected with the annual feast days. On the Passover Sabbath bitter herbs were mingled with the feast. The day of atonement was a fast day; the others were feast days.

? Leviticus 23:38. These annual Sabbaths were separate and distinct from the Sabbath of the Lord.

? Exodus 20:10. The seventh day of the week is the Sabbath of the Lord.

? Exodus 20:8-11. ?Meats and drinks? not connected with the weekly Sabbath.

? Exodus 20:11. Seventh-day Sabbath a memorial of creation. The Desire of Ages, 289.

? Isaiah 66:22, 23. As long as the world stands the memorial of creation will be celebrated. "

Bible Handbook

And here is a good study on this...
"Is there proof positive in the Scriptures that there was no such blending of the ceremonial and moral law into one? Can it be shown that the Ten Commandments were of a permanent, perpetual nature while the ceremonial law of statutes and ordinances came to an end when Jesus died? Indeed, there is an abundance of evidence to answer these questions with a resounding yes!

God made known this distinction to His servant Moses, and Moses explained it to the people at Mt. Horeb. “And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it” (Deuteronomy 4:13, 14).

Please notice how Moses clearly separated the Ten Commandments, which “he commanded you,” from the statutes which “he commanded me” to give the people. The big question now is whether those statutes and judgments, which Moses passed on to the people, were designated as a separate and distinct “law.”

God answers that important question in such a way that no doubt can remain. “Neither will I make the feet of Israel move any more out of the land which I gave their fathers; only if they will observe to do according to all that I have commanded them and according to all the law that my servant Moses commanded them” (2 Kings 21:8). Here we are assured that the statutes which Moses gave the people were called a “law.” Anyone could discern that two different laws are being described. God speaks of the law “I commanded” and also the “law ... Moses commanded.” Unless this truth is understood properly, limitless confusion will result."
Feast Days and Sabbaths | Free Book Library | Amazing Facts

 

[The Narrow Way]

Lets see if the ceremonial were the same. Here are the ceremonial sabbaths in the SOP...

"Ceremonial Sabbaths
Leviticus 23:7, 8, 21, 24, 25, 27, 32, 39. There are seven ceremonial Sabbaths as follows:- 1. 16th of Abib; 2. 23rd of Abib; 3. Pentecost; 4. 1st of the 7th month; 5. 10th of the 7th month; 6. 15th of the 7th month; 7. 22nd of the 7th month. These were annual Sabbaths, coming only once a year. As they always came on the same day of the month, they would come only occasionally on the 7th day of the week.

? Colossians 2:16, 17. These Sabbaths were all shadows of things to come.

? Hebrews 9:8-11. The types, or shadowy service, ceased at the cross. The Desire of Ages, 774.

? Matthew 27:50-51. At the death of Christ God rent the vail of the temple, thus showing that the shadowy service had ended.

? Hebrews 9:10; Romans 14:1-6; Colossians 2:16. All of these ceremonial Sabbaths were connected with the annual feast days. On the Passover Sabbath bitter herbs were mingled with the feast. The day of atonement was a fast day; the others were feast days.

? Leviticus 23:38. These annual Sabbaths were separate and distinct from the Sabbath of the Lord.

? Exodus 20:10. The seventh day of the week is the Sabbath of the Lord.

? Exodus 20:8-11. ?Meats and drinks? not connected with the weekly Sabbath.

? Exodus 20:11. Seventh-day Sabbath a memorial of creation. The Desire of Ages, 289.

? Isaiah 66:22, 23. As long as the world stands the memorial of creation will be celebrated. "

Bible Handbook

And here is a good study on this...
"Is there proof positive in the Scriptures that there was no such blending of the ceremonial and moral law into one? Can it be shown that the Ten Commandments were of a permanent, perpetual nature while the ceremonial law of statutes and ordinances came to an end when Jesus died? Indeed, there is an abundance of evidence to answer these questions with a resounding yes!

God made known this distinction to His servant Moses, and Moses explained it to the people at Mt. Horeb. “And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it” (Deuteronomy 4:13, 14).

Please notice how Moses clearly separated the Ten Commandments, which “he commanded you,” from the statutes which “he commanded me” to give the people. The big question now is whether those statutes and judgments, which Moses passed on to the people, were designated as a separate and distinct “law.”

God answers that important question in such a way that no doubt can remain. “Neither will I make the feet of Israel move any more out of the land which I gave their fathers; only if they will observe to do according to all that I have commanded them and according to all the law that my servant Moses commanded them” (2 Kings 21:8). Here we are assured that the statutes which Moses gave the people were called a “law.” Anyone could discern that two different laws are being described. God speaks of the law “I commanded” and also the “law ... Moses commanded.” Unless this truth is understood properly, limitless confusion will result."
Feast Days and Sabbaths | Free Book Library | Amazing Facts

Don't worry, I don't believe we should be keeping the Feast Days TODAY.

 

[reddogs]

Don't worry, I don't believe we should be keeping the Feast Days TODAY.

Then you can see what "a" sabbath can mean, and the nuances involved. So it does make a difference...

 

[The Narrow Way]

Then you can see what "a" sabbath can mean, and the nuances involved. So it does make a difference...

No, at the time that was written, it was NECESSARY to keep ALL THE SABBATHS...so the way the NIV wrote it was correct. TODAY though, it is not necessary to keep any of the sabbaths except the 7th Day Sabbath. See the difference?

 

[reddogs]

No, at the time that was written, it was NECESSARY to keep ALL THE SABBATHS...so the way the NIV wrote it was correct. TODAY though, it is not necessary to keep any of the sabbaths except the 7th Day Sabbath. See the difference?

They didnt have the feast days/ceremonial sabbaths till Moses wrote them down, so no...

 

[reddogs]

Well lets take a look at a few of the other commandments that have been given the "dynamic equivalence" change and see if anyone can see a difference...

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.

Anyone see any real difference....?

 

[The Narrow Way]

You are right, the ceremonial Sabbaths didn't come until Moses....I was wrong on that part . But I don't see where that changes anything. On BOTH sides of the verse in question, the NIV clearly states THE SABBATH as the 7th Day. I've never seen a KJV ONLY person change their mind, so guess I'll move on to other subjects.... Have a good day .

 

[reddogs]

Now this one seems almost to be the same and yet...

Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

In one, you are told directly "not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain" while in the other its just a "misuse", so it is more of a accidental use or you just misspoke. It reduces or narrows those who just 'misuse' versus 'take'.

 

[reddogs]

You are right, the ceremonial Sabbaths didn't come until Moses....I was wrong on that part . But I don't see where that changes anything. On BOTH sides of the verse in question, the NIV clearly states THE SABBATH as the 7th Day. I've never seen a KJV ONLY person change their mind, so guess I'll move on to other subjects.... Have a good day .

Nice that you see it, and I am not a KJV only person and you clearly know that from our prior conversations...

 

[GDL]

FWIW, I see the points both of you are making.

It is clear from context that this is the seventh day based upon creation. It says this before and after the verse in question. The seventh day being "a" day of rest or "the day" of rest wouldn't make much difference in context, because it's clear what's being expressed.

Based upon all the confusion and issues in our time and upon what the Hebrew Text says, I'd have to agree that "a" sabbath is not the way this should be translated. I probably wouldn't even use "the" sabbath.

It's obviously the weekly seventh day which has a definite stated correlation to creation and is specific both before and after verse 10. Verses 8 and 11 in Hebrew do contain the article. The difference in translations comes from there being no article in verse 10. It simply says, "day the seventh sabbath {to} YHWH" (the seventh day [is] sabbath) and it's written this way in both Hebrew and Greek (Septuagint) in the versions I'm currently looking at.

Yes, various theological positions do end up in translations. Thankfully we have a lot of manuscript evidence to work from.

 

[The Narrow Way]

Nice that you see it, and I am not a KJV only person and you clearly know that from our prior conversations...

No @reddogs, I honestly didn't know that. I've read several of your posts recently and that was the distinct idea that I got from them. Sorry if I read you wrong.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Looks like it literally says, the seventh day [is] sabbath ___ YHWH. The "is" is being inserted. The "a" or "the" sabbath are also being inserted. The blank can mean a few different things: to, for, from, belonging to, according to...

The deletion of "YHWH" is also a problem. A quick search shows 6,800+ times its used.

So much confusion...

Welcome GDL! Nice to see you here. I do not post in here much but popped in and saw your post. I think there is a lot of confusion. I do not think there is a perfect translation although I do most of my readings from the KJV. I like to look at the parallel translations and also the Greek and Hebrew. My personal view though is that we cannot know the truth of God's Word unless God is our guide and teacher which is Gods new covenant promise to all those who believe and obey His Word (John 16:13; John 7:17; John 14:26; 1 John 2:27; which is also a part of God's new covenant promise in Hebrews 8:11. Take a look at the Jews for example. They had the perfect translation of God's Word and when Jesus came who the Word testified of they crucified him. So much for the arguments of "the perfect translation". We need to have more faith that God will be our guide and teacher and believe his promises to us.

God bless