Doctrine of Hell

[Zona]

Over in the apologetics forum one of the Christian doctrines that disturbs unbelievers is the idea that God will punish non-believers in hell for eternity. To be honest, I find it disturbing myself. It's for this reason I probably have not studied carefully what the scriptures say re. hell. (Being a "scripture alone" sort of guy, I realize whether it disturbs me or anyone else is not the issue.)

So, here's a question:

Where does scripture indicate that the unbeliever is punished forever rather than consumed (cease to exist) by hell?

I am only in the beginnings of looking at the scriptures, but this question immediately jumps out at me.

 

[@@Paul@@]

Over in the apologetics forum one of the Christian doctrines that disturbs unbelievers is the idea that God will punish non-believers in hell for eternity. To be honest, I find it disturbing myself. It's for this reason I probably have not studied carefully what the scriptures say re. hell. (Being a "scripture alone" sort of guy, I realize whether it disturbs me or anyone else is not the issue.)

So, here's a question:

Where does scripture indicate that the unbeliever is punished forever rather than consumed (cease to exist) by hell?

I am only in the beginnings of looking at the scriptures, but this question immediately jumps out at me.

The "unbelievers" are not cast into Hell; they are cast into the "Lake of Fire". Hell is known as "the grave", the lake of fire is not.

Rev 20:10-15 KJV
(10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
(11) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
(12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
(13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.​

...Now if we want to be fair here, IT doesn't really say "for ever and ever"; it says "for ages and ages".

G165
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.​

...So can we honestly say all unbelievers will be tormented in the Lake of Fire for all eternity?? I don't think so, it's possible, but i don't believe it's the case.

 

[porcupine]

The "unbelievers" are not cast into Hell; they are cast into the "Lake of Fire". Hell is known as "the grave", the lake of fire is not.

Rev 20:10-15 KJV
(10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
(11) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
(12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
(13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.​

...Now if we want to be fair here, IT doesn't really say "for ever and ever"; it says "for ages and ages".

G165
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.​

...So can we honestly say all unbelievers will be tormented in the Lake of Fire for all eternity?? I don't think so, it's possible, but i don't believe it's the case.

However, Jesus did believe it to be the case:

Mark 9:42-48
42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

 

[ps139]

Here are some examples:

[bible]Isaiah 33:11-14[/bible]
[bible]Matthew 25:41-46[/bible]
[bible]Luke 3:16-17[/bible]
[bible]2 Thessalonians 1:6-9[/bible]

 

[Brother Simon]

I've always thought of it as 'a person sends themselves to hell.' God loves each and every one of us, and this is why he sent His Only Begotten for us. He doesn't want to, nor does he send anyone to hell. However, through our lives and actions, since salvation is a process and not a one time thing, man may send themselves to eternal damnation.

I'm not 100% sure if this is what the Church teaches regarding hell, and if it's not I encourage my Catholic brothers and sisters to correct me!

God Bless and Pax et Bonum!
Simon

 

[ps139]

I think you've got the right idea, Brother Simon.
God loves all of His creations. But if we reject Him, then we separate ourselves from Him, reject His gift of grace - then how can we enter Heaven? And besides Heaven, where else can we go? Hell.
Evil is the absence of God. If we do not accept God, then we go where He is not.

 

[Zona]

The "unbelievers" are not cast into Hell; they are cast into the "Lake of Fire". Hell is known as "the grave", the lake of fire is not.

Rev 20:10-15 KJV


(10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
(11) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
(12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
(13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

​

...Now if we want to be fair here, IT doesn't really say "for ever and ever"; it says "for ages and ages".

Paul,


Note that it is the devil et al that is specifically and his angels to "be tormented day and night for ever and ever." In verse 15 the unbelievers are tossed in also. Given verses elsewhere stating the consuming and destruction of the unbeliever in fire, could it be possible that for the unbeliever the fire is not an everlasting punishment but rather the end of their existence?

 

[Zona]

However, Jesus did believe it to be the case:

Mark 9:42-48
42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

porcupine,

Per these passages, the fire lasts forever, but I do not see where the passages say a punishment lasts forever. It seems that at most these passages may imply an eternal punishment.

 

[Zona]

Here are some examples:

Isaiah 33:11-1411 Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, as fire, shall devour you. 12 And the people shall be as the burnings of lime: as thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire. 13 Hear, ye that are far off, what I have done; and, ye that are near, acknowledge my might. 14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

Note the use of "devour" in this passage. Would it be a mistake to think that devour may have some sense of finality, i.e. end of existence?

Matthew 25:41-46
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

This passage is probably the strongest passage I have seen indicating everlasting punishment. But could it be that to cease to exist for eternity is an eternal punishment. Is it absolutely certain that the punishment entails conscious suffering?

 

[Anti-Fear]

Zona has 666 blessings!

 

[Zona]

I'm not 100% sure if this is what the Church teaches regarding hell, and if it's not I encourage my Catholic brothers and sisters to correct me!

I'd love to see what the Catholic church has to say on this, also.

 

[Brother Simon]

Taken from the Chatechism of the Catholic Church located here:

http://www.nccbuscc.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt3art12.htm

IV. Hell


1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."612 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.613 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."

1034 Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna," of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.614 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"615 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"616

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."618

• Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."619

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance":621

• Father, accept this offering
  from your whole family.
  Grant us your peace in this life,
  save us from final damnation,
  and count us among those you have chosen.622

God Bless and Pax et Bonum!
Simon

 

[ps139]

[/color]
Note the use of "devour" in this passage. Would it be a mistake to think that devour may have some sense of finality, i.e. end of existence?

Probably. Also, I'd like to see how other Bibles translate that word, before assuming that it meant finality. Every passage I quoted mentioned that the "fire," or hell is eternal. The words used to describe hell are eternal, unquenchable, everlasting... why else would any of those words be used if hell was not permanent, if you just stopped existing... wouldn't "everlasting" lose its relevancy?

This passage is probably the strongest passage I have seen indicating everlasting punishment. But could it be that to cease to exist for eternity is an eternal punishment. Is it absolutely certain that the punishment entails conscious suffering?

If you cease to exist for eternity.....?? Once you ceased existing, you would be done, no more, just stopped existing... how could it be an eternal punishment, if there is no one to be punished?? Or an everlasting fire if there is nothing to burn?

 

[hola]

Hola friend,

A couple wise friends helped me understand part of this some time ago. You see, God IS our salvation....if and only if we have God, we are saved. Now God does love everybody. He doesn't want any to perish. The only reason that people go to hell is because they choose to. They reject God, their salvation.

Hell is the only place where God is not, and nothing of his character is there. It's the only place where people choose to go to actually get completely away from God. They are completely separated from God. Think about the fruit of the Holy Spirit (if you want to describe God's character or nature)...love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance. None of those things will be in hell, because God is not there. Neither will hope (as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 13, and other Scriptures). No one in hell will ever have any hope of leaving hell or things getting better for them. Why not? As I said....they chose to be separated from God. To be separated from God is to be separated from salvation, and any hope of going to heaven, and any hope of not going to hell.

 

[G4m]

Hola friend,

A couple wise friends helped me understand part of this some time ago. You see, God IS our salvation....if and only if we have God, we are saved. Now God does love everybody. He doesn't want any to perish. The only reason that people go to hell is because they choose to. They reject God, their salvation.

What if you never hear and hence never reject?

Hell is the only place where God is not, and nothing of his character is there. It's the only place where people choose to go to actually get completely away from God. They are completely separated from God. Think about the fruit of the Holy Spirit (if you want to describe God's character or nature)...love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance. None of those things will be in hell, because God is not there. Neither will hope (as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 13, and other Scriptures). No one in hell will ever have any hope of leaving hell or things getting better for them. Why not? As I said....they chose to be separated from God. To be separated from God is to be separated from salvation, and any hope of going to heaven, and any hope of not going to hell.

Where could we hide from God?

Psalm 139
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Revelation 14
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

O.K.
Well now we get into the nature of what is "Heaven and Hell", this is meat, not babies milk, so stick with me for a moment...

God's (the trinity) light shines eternal and can be experienced in different ways... it does not change.

When we die, we are raised in spirit right then... we live in the spirit with a foretaste of what eternity will be like for us... if we were "moving closer" to God at our repose then we will experience God's light as warmth, loving and gentle, if we were moving away from God (sinful) then we will experience the burn, the sin will not go away unless it is removed by the creator.

Thus we have heaven and hell... thinking of them as physical places is for the young, something to learn to fear, but the true nature of it is for wisdom, with time we begin to understand...

All of us past and future will be raised bodily on the day of judgement (no rapture, no warnings) and will stand before God for our final and eternal judgement... there will be no mercy, only correct judgement..

Hope this helps....

Forgive me...

 

[Zona]

Thank you , Simon, for the Catholic perspective.

[/color]Every passage I quoted mentioned that the "fire," or hell is eternal. The words used to describe hell are eternal, unquenchable, everlasting... why else would any of those words be used if hell was not permanent, if you just stopped existing... wouldn't "everlasting" lose its relevancy?

It is clear it is everlasting, but could it be that the everlasting is there for Satan and his like?

If you cease to exist for eternity.....?? Once you ceased existing, you would be done, no more, just stopped existing... how could it be an eternal punishment, if there is no one to be punished?? Or an everlasting fire if there is nothing to burn?

It is eternal in that it is irreversible. It is the end of any hope.

 

[porcupine]

porcupine,

Per these passages, the fire lasts forever, but I do not see where the passages say a punishment lasts forever. It seems that at most these passages may imply an eternal punishment.

For a fire (or a worm) to go forever, it needs fuel.

Consider this:

Revelation 14:9-11
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

The smoke of the torment ascends forever.

 

[Zona]

...Hell is the only place where God is not, ...

hola,

I agree with you on what hell is.

This is one argument for the unbeliever ceasing to exist. All of us, Christian and non, were created in the image of God. If hell to be the absense of God in every way, I find it hard to reconcile His image being there in the form of the unbelievers.

 

[porcupine]

Hell is the only place where God is not,

While this has an appeal to the sentiment, it is not true. Please note the following:

Revelation 14:10-11
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Psalms 139:8
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Modern preachers actually diminish the teaching of Hell by refusing to name the place and simply saying "eternal separation from God." If all Hell is will be eternal separation from God, then simple death with no afterlife (as the atheists claim) is sufficient. If the separation is the "worst" part of eternal damnation, why does the Scripture not emphasize this instead of the fires of Hell aspect?

Scripture teaches that Hell is only temporary -- where the soul is in torment (see: Lazarus and the rich man). In the end, Hell itself is cast into the Lake of Fire. This happens after the wicked are resurrected in bodies. This increases the torment to include physical torment. Over and over the Bible warns of this. Nowhere does it say that the worst aspect is the separation from God. Yes, I think that will be a factor, butthe gnashing of teeth may come from an eternal hatred for God or an eternal regret for missing the opportunity to be saved. The Bible does not say.