Doctrine about everything!!!???!!!

[keyboard321]

Then you know the rebuke is NOT from drinking wine or strong drink....

That's what appeared when I looked for the word "deceived" I just copied and pasted it here.

It says different from what you say. It simply says that whoever consumes it is not wise.

And Deuteronomy 7:13 and Genesis 27:28, yes that's maybe a blessing but it talks about unfermented wine - - Strong's H8492 - tiyrowsh

 

[Pythons]

That's what appeared when I looked for the word "deceived" I just copied and pasted it here.

It says different from what you say. It simply says that whoever consumes it is not wise.

And Deuteronomy 7:13 and Genesis 27:28, yes that's maybe a blessing but it talks about unfermented wine - - Strong's H8492 - tiyrowsh

What translation / version do you see "consumes" in keyboard?
...I've checked all the Bibles I can find online and don't see that.

I copied and pasted directly from the Strong's online....
...Which IS / uses the Blue Letter Bible.
...And the meaning is explicitly INTOXICATED.

Naturally I'm interested in what kind of "translation" you are using.....
...It can't be a paraphrase Bible because the way you have worded it has totally changed the meaning?

Ok, so what Bible are you using?

 

[keyboard321]

What translation / version do you see "consumes" in keyboard?
...I've checked all the Bibles I can find online and don't see that.

I copied and pasted directly from the Strong's online....
...Which IS / uses the Blue Letter Bible.
...And the meaning is explicitly INTOXICATED.

Naturally I'm interested in what kind of "translation" you are using.....
...It can't be a paraphrase Bible because the way you have worded it has totally changed the meaning?

Ok, so what Bible are you using?

My bad....Sorry, the word "consumes" is only from my understanding to the word "led astray"

And I just realize this, you said

DECEIVED = 7686.....
...And whoever is DRUNK, INTOXICATED, ETC is not wise.

Can you be DRUNK, INTOXICATED, ETC if you did not consume it?

And here's the different versions/translations that I based my understanding upon the word "deceived"

NKJV - Wine is a mocker, Strong drink is a brawler, And whoever is led astray by it is not wise.

NLT - Wine produces mockers; alcohol leads to brawls. Those led astray by drink cannot be wise.

NIV - Wine is a mocker and beer a brawler; whoever is led astray by them is not wise.

ESV - Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler, and whoever is led astray by it is not wise.

NASB - Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler, And whoever *is intoxicated by it is not wise.

ASV - Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler; And whosoever erreth thereby is not wise.

I think, if you are led astray you consumes it? that's why it says "is not wise".

and you said

And realize it is saying the abuse of wine and strong drink is a mocker.

I think Proverbs 20:1 is just simply telling us that the wine and strong drink itself are mocker and raging.

 

[JohnMarsten]

Finally I would like to point out that personally I cannot find it plain and simple in the bible that alcohol is forbidden, it is NOT there. OF course as I have already said it a couple of times, alcohol can be dangerous, and we as human beings CAN be led astray by it, because we are not so wise as we would like to be or see us to be.

As for me, I like to have my freedom of choice, when I have the opportunity and the willingness of course, then I will have a drink, there are good occasions on which a glass of wine doesnt do any harm, there are occasion which are better left alone, though.

As for doctrine, I consider it kind of harsh to forbid the consumtion of alcohol, making it appear as some sort of holiness, it goes hand in hand with eating meat, some people who dont eat meat might consider themselves as holier than others and stuff but you all should know that in some way.

In the end we should be guided by the Holy Spirit in most or even all of our doings! and maybe His way for us is a way of abstinences...

However, as for me again, I will not trod the road that some of you do, vehemently trying to convince others that the bible (and God) condemn alcohol in general, because its not there.

 

[Cribstyl]

Good job, Python...you're on point.
Great example of patience.

 

[stork321]

[Deleted by poster: wrong post]

 

[Cribstyl]

Gen 9:21

Winemaking have been with us a long time. The abuse of it is what can cause us problems.
The fact that Paul taugth that deacons and minister should not be given to much wine proves that biblical wine did not imply grape juice.

Proverbs 20:1, is kinda saying....
wine will make you tell jokes and act folish and alcohol will make you fight, those continue to drink them cant be smart.

 

[k4c]

One side of the bible speaks negatively about the use of fermented wine and one side of the bible speaks positively of fermented wine use.

One side of the bible speaks negatively of sexual relations and one side of the bible speaks positively of sexual relationships.

One side of the bible speaks negatively of eating food and the other side of the bible speaks positively of eating food.

One side of the bible speaks negatively of money and the other side of the bible speaks positively of money.

One side of the bible speaks negatively of pleasure and the other side of the bible speaks positively of pleasure.

Which side are you on?

 

[JohnMarsten]

One side of the bible speaks negatively about the use of fermented wine and one side of the bible speaks positively of fermented wine use.

One side of the bible speaks negatively of sexual relations and one side of the bible speaks positively of sexual relationships.

One side of the bible speaks negatively of eating food and the other side of the bible speaks positively of eating food.

One side of the bible speaks negatively of money and the other side of the bible speaks positively of money.

One side of the bible speaks negatively of pleasure and the other side of the bible speaks positively of pleasure.

Which side are you on?

Exactly! there is always a right way to handle things...

the wrong thing for me is to proclaim a 'false' way of being religious.

If I tell someone that alcohol is always sin, under no circumstances is one allowed to have a drink, no matter how noble the cause, I am teaching something that is not found in the bible, in order to prove my position I have to twist and turn the bible in a way that suits my position. I wouldnt want to be doing that, and wonder why so many people go this road...

The catholic church teaches that no priest can have a wife, isnt it wonderful to be fully committed to the Lord, one could argue that they received a new light, or new present truth and that all other denoms including SDAs dont want to go that raggy road and rather have wifes and sex and stuff. Yet still they preach that a deacon must have a wife and yes, its in the bible, so is wine!!!

 

[k4c]

Exactly! there is always a right way to handle things...

the wrong thing for me is to proclaim a 'false' way of being religious.

If I tell someone that alcohol is always sin, under no circumstances is one allowed to have a drink, no matter how noble the cause, I am teaching something that is not found in the bible, in order to prove my position I have to twist and turn the bible in a way that suits my position. I wouldnt want to be doing that, and wonder why so many people go this road...

The catholic church teaches that no priest can have a wife, isnt it wonderful to be fully committed to the Lord, one could argue that they received a new light, or new present truth and that all other denoms including SDAs dont want to go that raggy road and rather have wifes and sex and stuff. Yet still they preach that a deacon must have a wife and yes, its in the bible, so is wine!!!

Eating meat and drinking fermented wine can be deep seated conscience issues. One mindset could be influenced by the fact that killing is wrong so eating meat should be wrong. One could be influenced by a past history of alcoholism or because of past physical abuse because of alcohol. This is why God never tells us to convince anyone that eating meat or drinkin wine is okay. They are called weak because of the way they believe these things should be handled. God just tells was not to partake of them in front of them.

 

[JohnMarsten]

Eating meat and drinking fermented wine can be deep seated conscience issues. One mindset could be influenced by the fact that killing is wrong so eating meat should be wrong. One could be influenced by a past history of alcoholism or because of past physical abuse because of alcohol. This is why God never tells us to convince anyone that eating meat or drinkin wine is okay. They are called weak because of the way they believe these things should be handled. God just tells was not to partake of them in front of them.

its a pretty weird world we are living in, some people will consider those weird that do eat meat and others those that dont. The bible is in support of the latter though, or maybe I am strong when I am weak, and becoming weak should be our goal? really sometimes its very hard to come up with something that is true at all times...

 

[Cribstyl]

One side of the bible speaks negatively about the use of fermented wine and one side of the bible speaks positively of fermented wine use.....
.....One side of the bible speaks negatively of eating food and the other side of the bible speaks positively of eating food.


Which side are you on?

Really? That would depend on which of the prophets and apostles you want to agree with.

Moses is getting underminded again ......
He wrote about Noah and his family being the only people on earth.
If strong drink an issue, why did Noah get so drunk and God said nothing about it?
Why did God commanded Noah's family to eat meat?
Why did God require strong wine as a drink offering?
Why did God only require the Levites and not the Children of Israel to drink wine?
Why did Paul require the deacon and bishop to drink only a reasonable amount?

The word of God cannot be rejected or rendered as optional by new light, Or can it?

The wisdom of the word proves that it's not wise to drink wine, but to say that God commands it is questionable.

 

[Pythons]

My bad....Sorry, the word "consumes" is only from my understanding to the word "led astray"

And I just realize this, you said



Can you be DRUNK, INTOXICATED, ETC if you did not consume it?

And here's the different versions/translations that I based my understanding upon the word "deceived"



I think, if you are led astray you consumes it? that's why it says "is not wise".

and you said



I think Proverbs 20:1 is just simply telling us that the wine and strong drink itself are mocker and raging.

No different than it would be impossible to be a glutton if one never ate...
...The teaching isn't that people need to abstain from food.
...The teaching is to not let ANYTHING control you to the point it becomes your Lord.

Proverbs 13,25
The righteous eateth to the satisfying of his soul: but the belly of the wicked shall want


Phili 3,19
Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)


Anything can become an idol - work, money, power, wine, food, sex....
...Scripture teaches us that God has given us everything to enjoy.
...It's sin that causes us to twist the blessings of God into a curse.

 

[JohnMarsten]

Really? That would depend on which of the prophets and apostles you want to agree with.

Moses is getting underminded again ......
He wrote about Noah and his family being the only people on earth.
If strong drink an issue, why did Noah get so drunk and God said nothing about it?
Why did God commanded Noah's family to eat meat?
Why did God require strong wine as a drink offering?
Why did God only require the Levites and not the Children of Israel to drink wine?
Why did Paul require the deacon and bishop to drink only a reasonable amount?

The word of God cannot be rejected or rendered as optional by new light, Or can it?

The wisdom of the word proves that it's not wise to drink wine, but to say that God commands it is questionable.

I have to agree with you!

If Wine and stuff were such a bad thing God would have said so in the bible, not by mere advice but by command not to drink. He certainly wouldnt have included it in any kind of offering, but thats just my opinion. I mean, He told us that homosexuality is a no no, with severe consequences, right? right! so we definitely know what to do or rather what we are not to do, no mistakes here, the fact the some churches are loosening their position on that matter doesnt interest me at all, I know whats in the bible! He was clear on that.

He also said that if a guy is a constant drunkard and lazy then his parents are to drag him out of town and stone him to set an example for everyone else. He was clear on that. However, He never said not to drink at all, numerous bible text as already mention reveal that drinking wine is of no condemnation.

The problem that we are having today is however of a different sort:

There are some people among us who have fallen under the sway of a false teaching of definite abstinence at all times, while mere abstinence isnt a bad thing at first sight (it is definitely weakness) it is bad to proclaim it as required holiness.

People like me, who stick to the biblical dont do it as an excuse for drinking, (I wrote about the dangers of alcohol) but seek truth as it is in pure form. Erroneous doctrines should be erased as a matter of fact.

In effect the doctrine of unnecessary abstinence is causing a rift between believers, IMHO the weak believers should just stick to their abstinence and finally agree to the biblical truths.

Otherwise this again is getting into some sort of it is wrong to be right thing.

Paul said it is good not to drink wine and abstain from meat. Why does he say so? Because it might the weak to stumble! that is truth, coming up with the grape juice thing gets into the realm of twisting the bible to suit ones purposes and this is not what the bible is to be...