Doctrine about everything!!!???!!!

[k4c]

yep. God want us to be in good health

3 John 1:2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

When you call something sin, that God does not, you can bring about unnecessary guilt, condemnation and division among family members. They may believe they are more healthy, physically, but spiritually they are full of unnecessary guilt, condemnation through family and friends who see things differently. Let's stick to the Bible, at least when it comes to calling something sinful because spiritual health is more important than physical health.

Remember, a deacon, who is a leader in church, is to be one who does not drink much wine. There are two things here we need to understand.

1. It's not talking about grape juice.

2. It doesn't say he should not drink.

Let me add one more thing.

Could EGW have seen, through inspiration, how this world in the last days would be led astray through alcohol and drugs?

Rev 18:23 "The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of bridegroom and bride shall not be heard in you anymore. For your merchants were the great men of the earth, for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived.

The word, sorcery, in this verse is the original language is the word, pharmakeia, which referrs to drugs/alcohol/medications and so on.

G5331 pharmakeia (far-mak-ei'-ah) n.

1. the use of drugs, potions, and enchantments
2. poisoning ("pharmacy")
3. (by extension) the occult, witchcraft
4. (by implication) the remedy, the cure.​

​

​

Have you watched TV lately? There is a drug for everything and the drug is ussually more harmful than the problem.​

Even in all this, we should not call something sinful that God does not. What we should do is present the facts to educate God's people and let them make personal choices in line with God's word.​

 

[JohnMarsten]

When you call something sin, that God does not, you can bring about unnecessary guilt, condemnation and division among family members. They may believe they are more healthy, physically, but spiritually they are full of unnecessary guilt, condemnation through family and friends who see things differently. Let's stick to the Bible, at least when it comes to calling something sinful because spiritual health is more important than physical health.

Remember, a deacon, who is a leader in church, is to be one who does not drink much wine. There are two things here we need to understand.

1. It's not talking about grape juice.

2. It doesn't say he should not drink.

Let me add one more thing.

Could EGW have seen, through inspiration, how this world in the last days would be led astray through alcohol and drugs?

Rev 18:23 "The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of bridegroom and bride shall not be heard in you anymore. For your merchants were the great men of the earth, for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived.

The word, sorcery, in this verse is the original language is the word, pharmakeia, which referrs to drugs/alcohol/medications and so on.

G5331 pharmakeia (far-mak-ei'-ah) n.

1. the use of drugs, potions, and enchantments
2. poisoning ("pharmacy")
3. (by extension) the occult, witchcraft
4. (by implication) the remedy, the cure.​

Have you watched TV lately? There is a drug for everything and the drug is ussually more harmful than the problem.​

Even in all this, we should not call something sinful that God does not. What we should do is present the facts to educate God's people and let them make personal choices in line with God's word.​

you have spoken wisely, however, was it a deacon or a bishop? just out of curiousity, maybe its even all the same.

as far as that sorcery thing is concerned in relation to alcohol, I can only say that Gods allowing to drink alcohol is not an excuse for abuse.

 

[JohnMarsten]

... and as K4C rightly asserted it is a problem that can not only result in unnecessary trouble but can cause SOME REAL PROBLEMS

Imagine the following (and this is not far fetched)

somebody grows up in the church and is told by very strict parents that alcohol is sin, ok, then comes a time and it may happen that he or she hasnt got any adventist friends who are lets say alike, for example in a small congregation, with many older and many younger children no peer group whatsoever...

Is can get very hard to get along and find friends who think and believe the same,right?? right!

naturally he or she will try to find friends in the so called world that is all around us.

Of course one can find good and bad friends but there will be situations where drinking alcohol is present, now our adventist friend will face a hard time resisting, fitting in or not fitting in will be the question. Now if he or she isnt really taught about proper drinking the following real dangers may occur

first: remorse, have I sinned? will I go to hell...

second: no experience with alcohol, no role model, not knowing what to expect and how to behave can even result in a serious drinking problem

third: once parents find out about it they may call him or her an 'alcoholic' that has given themselves up to the devil and stuff, putting some flawed ideas into their minds, maybe the young adult will believe and even more so believe he or she is lost

false religious assumptions may cause an idea of: I can only get back to church if I stop 'drinking' and seeing my friends

of course this is just a rough cut of ideas and life is much more complex than that and always different, but believe I have seen many things in life and things as described above happen and are reinforced through the SDA church,

 

[keyboard321]

Nowhere in my post that I say drinking wine is a sin but what I'm saying is fermented wine is not good to our health.

Test show that after drinking three bottles of beer, there is an average of 13 percent net memory loss. After taking only small quantities of alcohol, trained typist were tested and their errors increased to 40 percent. Only one ounce of alcohol increases the time required to make a decision by nearly 10 percent; hinders muscular reaction by 17 percent; increases errors due to lack of attention by 35 percent.

- Paul Harvey

In case of Timothy, the word "oinos" was used. "Oinos" may mean fermented or unfermented wine. There are historical references that attest that unfermented wine for medicinal purposes in the ancient world. For example, Athenaeus (280 AD) counsels the use of unfermented wine for stomach disorders. Timothy must also have been living as Nazarite, drinking only water. Paul was telling him to use a little grape juice, which has a very soothing effect in the body -- indicating that Timothy abstained and needed to be urged to take even a little new wine. Drinking fermented wine can contribute stomach ulcers. Paul would never recommend old wine for stomach therapy. (The Christian and Alcohol by Doug Batchelor)

 

[E.T.Elijah]

... and as K4C rightly asserted it is a problem that can not only result in unnecessary trouble but can cause SOME REAL PROBLEMS

Imagine the following (and this is not far fetched)

somebody grows up in the church and is told by very strict parents that alcohol is sin, ok, then comes a time and it may happen that he or she hasnt got any adventist friends who are lets say alike, for example in a small congregation, with many older and many younger children no peer group whatsoever...

Is can get very hard to get along and find friends who think and believe the same,right?? right!

naturally he or she will try to find friends in the so called world that is all around us.

Of course one can find good and bad friends but there will be situations where drinking alcohol is present, now our adventist friend will face a hard time resisting, fitting in or not fitting in will be the question. Now if he or she isnt really taught about proper drinking the following real dangers may occur

first: remorse, have I sinned? will I go to hell...

second: no experience with alcohol, no role model, not knowing what to expect and how to behave can even result in a serious drinking problem

third: once parents find out about it they may call him or her an 'alcoholic' that has given themselves up to the devil and stuff, putting some flawed ideas into their minds, maybe the young adult will believe and even more so believe he or she is lost

false religious assumptions may cause an idea of: I can only get back to church if I stop 'drinking' and seeing my friends

of course this is just a rough cut of ideas and life is much more complex than that and always different, but believe I have seen many things in life and things as described above happen and are reinforced through the SDA church,

So are you advocating that everyone should drink alcohol in order to know the effects and be able to teach our children how to drink responsibly when they are grown? Or in my case, since I was raised around alcoholics (my father died in his 50's because of alcohol's effects on his liver) and myself started to travel down that road as a teen, and I see the effects it has on the body over time at my job in an ICU, maybe it would be more prudent for me to teach my children the dangers in having even the occasional drink because it may lead to over-indulging. Is it a sin? No, but tends to lead to many . I would rather my children grow up and learn to stick to their convictions rather than follow the crowd. By the same reasoning above, it should be ok to experiment with drugs to fit in or maybe go to strip clubs. Neither is technically a sin, but I find it hard to believe that a Christian would do either with a clear conscience.

 

[JohnMarsten]

So are you advocating that everyone should drink alcohol in order to know the effects and be able to teach our children how to drink responsibly when they are grown? Or in my case, since I was raised around alcoholics (my father died in his 50's because of alcohol's effects on his liver) and myself started to travel down that road as a teen, and I see the effects it has on the body over time at my job in an ICU, maybe it would be more prudent for me to teach my children the dangers in having even the occasional drink because it may lead to over-indulging. Is it a sin? No, but tends to lead to many . I would rather my children grow up and learn to stick to their convictions rather than follow the crowd. By the same reasoning above, it should be ok to experiment with drugs to fit in or maybe go to strip clubs. Neither is technically a sin, but I find it hard to believe that a Christian would do either with a clear conscience.

I am not implying that! Personally I even live an ALMOST abstinent life! It happen to be months of abstinence only to drink once on a good occasion. I like the freedom to have a drink whenever the situation occurs, and since not all occasions are good occasion I am also liberty to decline.

What I was referring too, is the fact that the alcohol = sin theory has its limits, and why tell people a lie? How can there be many truths in the bible?

 

[JohnMarsten]

So are you advocating that everyone should drink alcohol in order to know the effects and be able to teach our children how to drink responsibly when they are grown? Or in my case, since I was raised around alcoholics (my father died in his 50's because of alcohol's effects on his liver) and myself started to travel down that road as a teen, and I see the effects it has on the body over time at my job in an ICU, maybe it would be more prudent for me to teach my children the dangers in having even the occasional drink because it may lead to over-indulging. Is it a sin? No, but tends to lead to many . I would rather my children grow up and learn to stick to their convictions rather than follow the crowd. By the same reasoning above, it should be ok to experiment with drugs to fit in or maybe go to strip clubs. Neither is technically a sin, but I find it hard to believe that a Christian would do either with a clear conscience.

just btw: Would the SDA accept members to have an occasional drink?

 

[E.T.Elijah]

John, I just wanted to show the same logic could be applied to anything. I do understand that you were trying to make a point of alcohol not being a sin, which I do agree with, however, just in my experiences the occassional drink can lead to more and more. What I was getting at was that it is not considered sin (although it is considered unwise and unhealthy) by the SDA church at large, but there may be members within the church that look upon it that way. There will always be fanatical people that take things to the extreme. That happens in all denominations. Just a cursory search on these forums and alcohol is a topic that swings from one side of extreme to the other. As to letting someone become a member who still drinks, I think the question really becomes, do we let people become members of a church who do not agree with or want to abide by the particular church bylaws and beliefs. That isn't a question strictly for Adventist churches. Other denominations find themselves in the same situations. We must also understand that being a member of any church means you have the right to go to church meetings and vote. If there are those who do not hold the same beliefs dear as the rest of the members of the church then those people can effect the outcome just the same. A church then becomes divided and also becomes ineffective. Now please don't get me wrong, I am not saying that we close our doors to those who drink, smoke, drug, go to strip clubs, etc. If they are coming they are searching for something. We need to use those opportunities to show them Jesus and the salvation that He provides. But at the same time, how can we give someone any authority for church decisions when they do not accept or try to follow the teachings of that particular church?

 

[Stryder06]

Having been SDA for many many years I can tell you that only the 4th commandment matters. There maybe some ultra hardcore SDA's out there that think things like the trinity matters, but they are few and far between.

The 4th commandment isn't a doctrine. The Law of God is, which the 4th is a part of. The reason why there's emphasis on it is because it's been forgotten.

 

[Stryder06]

Aren't you a former SDA? That's the reason.

The pillars of Adventism is not the sabbath, is not the health message, is not the mortality of the soul...

The pillars of Adventism is the Sanctuary message of which the essence is Righteousness by Faith. Ellen White saw in her time not 1 in 100 understood our message. Can you imagine today's church's ratio in her deplorable condition?

 

[Pythons]

Hi

Can you show where in the NT where alcohol is endorsed? I can't remember that alcohol was endorsed in NT

1 Timothy 5,23
Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities

Luke 22,18
For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come

1 Timothy 3,8
Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to MUCH wine, not greedy of filthy lucre

That's 3 explicit cases where the use of alcohol is endorsed ( in moderation )...
...A Bishop can drink it ( in moderation ).
...A Deacon can drink it ( in moderation ).
...& a member of the Church can drink it ( in moderation ).

How would a Christian celebrate 'The Cup' w/out wine?
...Would one consider cool-aid or grape juice "wine"?

http://video.foxnews.com/v/4496372/the-powers-of-resveratrol/?playlist_id=86893

 

[Princessdi]

This maybe true, ODL, but it is the Sabbath that is the rule by which we judge everyone else. It is not the Sactuary or Righteousness by faith that we promote. That is not what we have shown the world. When people talk about SDAs, if indeed they even know about us, it's that we go to church on Saturday and don't eat meat. They know very little about other doctrines.

Now, it would be nice if we would present Jesus and righteousness by faith from the start, but that is not the case. We always start off with the works aspect, making it seem that Jesus love and acceptance is conditional upon the Sabbath, health message, what you wear, etc. We have it backwards.

Aren't you a former SDA? That's the reason.

The pillars of Adventism is not the sabbath, is not the health message, is not the mortality of the soul...

The pillars of Adventism is the Sanctuary message of which the essence is Righteousness by Faith. Ellen White saw in her time not 1 in 100 understood our message. Can you imagine today's church's ratio in her deplorable condition?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

This maybe true, ODL, but it is the Sabbath that is the rule by which we judge everyone else. It is not the Sactuary or Righteousness by faith that we promote. That is not what we have shown the world. When people talk about SDAs, if indeed they even know about us, it's that we go to church on Saturday and don't eat meat. They know very little about other doctrines.

Now, it would be nice if we would present Jesus and righteousness by faith from the start, but that is not the case. We always start off with the works aspect, making it seem that Jesus love and acceptance is conditional upon the Sabbath, health message, what you wear, etc. We have it backwards.

I definitely agree with you Princess...

 

[OntheDL]

This maybe true, ODL, but it is the Sabbath that is the rule by which we judge everyone else. It is not the Sactuary or Righteousness by faith that we promote. That is not what we have shown the world. When people talk about SDAs, if indeed they even know about us, it's that we go to church on Saturday and don't eat meat. They know very little about other doctrines.

Now, it would be nice if we would present Jesus and righteousness by faith from the start, but that is not the case. We always start off with the works aspect, making it seem that Jesus love and acceptance is conditional upon the Sabbath, health message, what you wear, etc. We have it backwards.

What do you mean by 'we'?

Our message has always been the 'righteousness by faith' based on our unique sanctuary message.

It's the dialog of GC with Dr. Walter Martin in the '60s changed/altered our beliefs.

We have never changed what we believe. However the other teachings on the sabbath, health and healing...are parts of the sanctification/3rd angel's message.

I don't see why someone should have a problem with them if he/she understands the sanctification message and is in the sanctification process.

 

[Stryder06]

1 Timothy 5,23
Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities

Luke 22,18
For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come

1 Timothy 3,8
Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to MUCH wine, not greedy of filthy lucre

That's 3 explicit cases where the use of alcohol is endorsed ( in moderation )...
...A Bishop can drink it ( in moderation ).
...A Deacon can drink it ( in moderation ).
...& a member of the Church can drink it ( in moderation ).

How would a Christian celebrate 'The Cup' w/out wine?
...Would one consider cool-aid or grape juice "wine"?

The Powers of Resveratrol - Fox News Video - Fox News

First, none of those texts say anything about alcohol. How do you get alcohol from the fruit of the fine if you don't process it? Second, none of those texts say anything about "Moderation". Alcohol is posion. No two ways about it. It doesn't belong in your body. To think that Jesus or anyone else was saying otherwise is not wise. Our bodies are a temple are they not? Posion doesn't belong in it.

 

[Pythons]

If you put welches grape juice into old wine "skins" it does not swell up and burst....
...If however you put freshly made wine into old skins they indeed do burst.
...It's not much more difficult than that.

You wouldn't want a Bishop that was given to too much wine...

Vs.

You wouldn't want a Bishop that was given to too much grape juice?

OR,

"These men are full of new wine"....

Vs.

"These men are full of new grape juice"?

Grape juice does not seem to make sense.....
....But before I post any more about it could you tell me if wine = grape juice in the Bible is a doctrine for SDA's.
....I wouldn't want to get reported for debating against a doctrine in your forum.
....It's just a question.

 

[Stryder06]

If you put welches grape juice into old wine "skins" it does not swell up and burst....
...If however you put freshly made wine into old skins they indeed do burst.
...It's not much more difficult than that.

You wouldn't want a Bishop that was given to too much wine...

Vs.

You wouldn't want a Bishop that was given to too much grape juice?

OR,

"These men are full of new wine"....

Vs.

"These men are full of new grape juice"?

Grape juice does not seem to make sense.....
....But before I post any more about it could you tell me if wine = grape juice in the Bible is a doctrine for SDA's.
....I wouldn't want to get reported for debating against a doctrine in your forum.
....It's just a question.

It doesnt make sense to you because of our culture. Look at it like this. Fact: Alcohol kills brain cells. Do you really think Christ will provide for us a substance that will work to destroy His creation in the New Heavens?

 

[Kira Light]

recent research has shown that the quantity of alcohol you could possibly take in, without killing yourself, does not introduce enough alcohol into your bloodstream to kill brain cells

Alcohol Does Not Kill Brain Cells

 

[OntheDL]

Alcohol Does Not Kill Brain Cells

Alcohol does not kill brain cells, but kills the links between them, rendering the cells useless.

 

[Kira Light]

Alcohol does not kill brain cells, but kills the links between them, rendering the cells useless.

Useless? It can be repaired if you stop drinking so much. Not the same as a dead brain cell at all...

This is interesting, from the same article:

According to a study done at the Catholic University of the Sacred Heart, in Italy, 29% of people 65 years or older who almost never drank alcohol throughout their life had mental impairment issues. On the flip-side of that, only about 19% of people 65 years or older who drank moderate amounts of alcohol regularly had any mental impairment.

That seems weird if drinkers have so many "useless" brain cells.