Doctrine about everything!!!???!!!

[Pythons]

As onthedl said - drinking does NOT kill brain cells at all....
...This is backed up by hard science and has been for many, many years.
...Drinking to excess causes all kinds of problems - as does eating to excess.

If wine in the Bible is not the same as wine today there is a problem....
....Because Jesus was contrasted with John the Baptist who drank NO WINE.
....And it's impossible to get drunk on Welches grape juice.

 

[stinsonmarri]

Inspired by some of the threads I was thinking, what is the most important doctrine? If there is such?

For example, there is the doctrine of the trinity, I guess, for me it is actually of no importance as such. WHy?

Well, the bible does not talk about trinity? in the beginning it starts with monotheism, however, David (the Lord said to my Lord) was aware that there is more to it, Jesus told the disciples to baptize in the name of the Father, the Sun and the Holy Spirit. I dont know if THey wanna be called the trinity but what I know is that all THREE are indeed important. In the end I know that I need Jesus Christ to be saved, He is the way, the truth and the life, no one can come to the father except through him.

So why should I invest my time in some trinitarian dispute? WIll people go to hell if they dont include the Holy Spirit in the Godhead? For me such a discussion is sort of a waste of time, but maybe the time hasnt come for this yet, and it will be important for me in the future.

So, which doctrines are indeed important, and which are better to be left alone? Does one need to have all of them doctrines right??

Because the trinity is a lie. The Bible never talk about monotheism because that is a lie. The Bible in the beginning said let us make man in our on resemblance and likeness. God is a singular word and Elohim is plural. One is doctrine and the other is Biblical. Gen 1:27, 27. The word his is not used in this sentence but was place there!

It is not a dispute to stand for truth. Holy Spirit is Elohim as well and yes if You deny Him you cannot get to the Son (not Sun) or the Father.

We should not heed to doctrines nor traditions which most do instead of following the Bible. Matt 15:9

Happy Sabbath,
stinsonmarri

 

[stinsonmarri]

the basic problem here is that you claim the SDA to be the true presentation OK, but then why was the God of the bible a different God then?

Have you ever thought about why he never forbade alcohol in the new testament but even endorsed it? He cannot come up with a new plan calling something sin that was Ok with His holy nation back in the day.

Now if something like that and other follies are being taught by EGW it is only natural that people are gonna doubt that and if the leadership admitted she made a mistake that would clearly shake the foundation of the church and even the ignorant members would come up and start asking questions... besides they would make a fool of themselves now after over 150 years... right? Right!

John:

As I have constantly stated that just reading the Bible through the eyes of the writers and not actually knowing what the word means is the problem. The word wine in the English means when the grape juice has feremented. But the Hebrew word Yayin means both unferemented grape juice and feremented grape juice. Why on earth would Yahweh write one thing in the Old Testament without providing you the knowledge to know that it has or has not remain the same? It is doctrines and traditions that causes this problem it is a sin to drink, sip, taste feremented wine at all. Yashua came to save the world and not to destroy it. When people becomes drunk by using feremented wine or Yayin the Bible clearly state this. Genesis 9:20, 19:30-38; Lev 10:1-9 Yashua did not drink or eat any unleavened which contain yeast that makes things feremented. Luke 22:20
Finally drinking feremented wine should be rebuke by anyone who thinks they can drink anything feremented before the presense of the Almighty. 1Co 10:31


Happy Sabbath,
stinsonmarri

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

....And it's impossible to get drunk on Welches grape juice.

Not if you let it sit a round for a while....

 

[k4c]

John:

As I have constantly stated that just reading the Bible through the eyes of the writers and not actually knowing what the word means is the problem. The word wine in the English means when the grape juice has feremented. But the Hebrew word Yayin means both unferemented grape juice and feremented grape juice. Why on earth would Yahweh write one thing in the Old Testament without providing you the knowledge to know that it has or has not remain the same? It is doctrines and traditions that causes this problem it is a sin to drink, sip, taste feremented wine at all. Yashua came to save the world and not to destroy it. When people becomes drunk by using feremented wine or Yayin the Bible clearly state this. Genesis 9:20, 19:30-38; Lev 10:1-9 Yashua did not drink or eat any unleavened which contain yeast that makes things feremented. Luke 22:20
Finally drinking feremented wine should be rebuke by anyone who thinks they can drink anything feremented before the presense of the Almighty. 1Co 10:31


Happy Sabbath,
stinsonmarri

I guess that leaves out deacons and older woman.

1Tim 3:8 Deacons, likewise, should be worthy of respect, not hypocritical, not drinking a lot of wine, not greedy for money,

Titus 2:3 In the same way, older women are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not addicted to much wine. They are to teach what is good,​

Do you think Jesus would have anything to do with the kingdom of God?​

Matt 13:33 Another parable He spoke to them: "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened."

　​

　​

​

​

​

 

[Pythons]

Not if you let it sit a round for a while....

Pasturization is the only way to keep wine from spoiling.....
...Grape juice started to become wine almost as soon as the grapes were picked.
...There would have been no way to stop the process.
...This is why the Nazarite vows prevented one from eating even "grapes".

Numbers 6,1
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When either man or woman shall separate themselves to vow a vow of a Nazarite, to separate themselves unto the LORD: He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried. All the days of his separation shall he eat nothing that is made of the vine tree, from the kernels even to the husk. All the days of the vow of his separation there shall no razor come upon his head: until the days be fulfilled, in the which he separateth himself unto the LORD, he shall be holy, and shall let the locks of the hair of his head grow.


Numbers 6,19
And the priest shall take the sodden shoulder of the ram, and one unleavened cake out of the basket, and one unleavened wafer, and shall put them upon the hands of the Nazarite, after the hair of his separation is shaven: And the priest shall wave them for a wave offering before the LORD: this is holy for the priest, with the wave breast and heave shoulder: and after that the Nazarite MAY drink wine.

We read that John the Baptist was a Nazarite from birth.....
...Like Samson.

Luke 1, 13
But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God

Luke 7,32
For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

 

[JohnMarsten]

John:

As I have constantly stated that just reading the Bible through the eyes of the writers and not actually knowing what the word means is the problem. The word wine in the English means when the grape juice has feremented. But the Hebrew word Yayin means both unferemented grape juice and feremented grape juice. Why on earth would Yahweh write one thing in the Old Testament without providing you the knowledge to know that it has or has not remain the same? It is doctrines and traditions that causes this problem it is a sin to drink, sip, taste feremented wine at all. Yashua came to save the world and not to destroy it. When people becomes drunk by using feremented wine or Yayin the Bible clearly state this. Genesis 9:20, 19:30-38; Lev 10:1-9 Yashua did not drink or eat any unleavened which contain yeast that makes things feremented. Luke 22:20
Finally drinking feremented wine should be rebuke by anyone who thinks they can drink anything feremented before the presense of the Almighty. 1Co 10:31


Happy Sabbath,
stinsonmarri

ok, then could you please comment on what deuteronomy 14 means then, as you have apparently access to the original languages,

Tithes

22 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year. 23 Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and olive oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always. 24 But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the LORD your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the LORD will choose to put his Name is so far away), 25 then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the LORD your God will choose. 26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice. 27 And do not neglect the Levites living in your towns, for they have no allotment or inheritance of their own. 28 At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year’s produce and store it in your towns, 29 so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the foreigners, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, and so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands.

as I have pointed out so many times and nobody (as of yet) truly commented on it: Is God really speaking of wine in the sense that its not grape juice, and is He really speaking about fermented drink in the sense of strong drink here,

IF NOT
then would you kindly tell me what the both words mean in that context (which is tithing btw)

besides:

If we accept that (false IMHO) teaching that God never allowed for a drink:

Could we come up with the following doctrines:???

A bishop (or whatever) should not drink too much grape juice!

A woman shouldnt drink any grape juice during pregnancy (I mean why should an angel tell samsons mother about alcohol if they already knew not to drink it)

give grape juice to the man in trouble

grape juice, yeap yuh get it, its grape juice....

 

[Pythons]

And of course,

Acts 2,13 re translated.
Others mocking said, These men are full of new grape-juice.

Luke 5,37 re translated.
And no man putteth new grape-juice into old bottles; else the new grape-juice will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.

Everyone knows if you put welches grapejuice into a "NEW" sealed container...
...That the grape-juice will cause the container to blow up.
...LOL.

 

[keyboard321]

ok, then could you please comment on what deuteronomy 14 means then, as you have apparently access to the original languages,

Tithes

22 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year. 23 Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and olive oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always. 24 But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the LORD your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the LORD will choose to put his Name is so far away), 25 then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the LORD your God will choose. 26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice. 27 And do not neglect the Levites living in your towns, for they have no allotment or inheritance of their own. 28 At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year’s produce and store it in your towns, 29 so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the foreigners, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, and so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands.

as I have pointed out so many times and nobody (as of yet) truly commented on it: Is God really speaking of wine in the sense that its not grape juice, and is He really speaking about fermented drink in the sense of strong drink here,

IF NOT
then would you kindly tell me what the both words mean in that context (which is tithing btw)

besides:

If we accept that (false IMHO) teaching that God never allowed for a drink:

Could we come up with the following doctrines:???

A bishop (or whatever) should not drink too much grape juice!

A woman shouldnt drink any grape juice during pregnancy (I mean why should an angel tell samsons mother about alcohol if they already knew not to drink it)

give grape juice to the man in trouble

grape juice, yeap yuh get it, its grape juice....

Strong drink is translated as "shekar". Shekar is condemned by Solomon as brawler and Isaiah pronounces a woe to those who run after shekar.

Also, the above verses doesn't tell us that drinking wine is ok. The passage tells us how to transport offerings when presenting it to the Lord in long distances, Moses even recommended to carry money rather than carrying offering of beasts, grain and etc..Animal sacrifices can be eaten but drink offerings should be poured to the ground.

"And the drink offering thereof shall be the fourth part of an hin for the one lamb: in the holy place shalt thou cause the strong wine to be poured unto the LORD for a drink offering."

 

[Pythons]

Strong drink is translated as "shekar". Shekar is condemned by Solomon as brawler and Isaiah pronounces a woe to those who run after shekar.

Also, the above verses doesn't tell us that drinking wine is ok. The passage tells us how to transport offerings when presenting it to the Lord in long distances, Moses even recommended to carry money rather than carrying offering of beasts, grain and etc..Animal sacrifices can be eaten but drink offerings should be poured to the ground.

"And the drink offering thereof shall be the fourth part of an hin for the one lamb: in the holy place shalt thou cause the strong wine to be poured unto the LORD for a drink offering."

In both the cases it's not the strong drink or wine that's condemned...
...But the abuse of it - same as is done with food.

 

[keyboard321]

In both the cases it's not the strong drink or wine that's condemned...
...But the abuse of it - same as is done with food.

Really? Read again Proverbs 20:1

 

[Pythons]

Really? Read again Proverbs 20:1

Yes, Really.

Let's look at it again.

Proverbs 20,1
Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: AND whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise

Is this ^ the same wine as used in the following passages?

Genesis 27,28
Therefore God give thee of the dew of heaven, and the fatness of the earth, and plenty of corn and wine:

Deut 7,13
And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee


So, wine is said to be a "blessing" from God yet you are suggesting the Bible says it's a mocker...
....I would suggest that you read Proverbs 20, 1 again.
....And realize it is saying the abuse of wine and strong drink is a mocker.
....No different than eating until you can't move.

If you are "deceived".

H7686 in Strong's
2) to swerve, meander, reel, roll, be intoxicated, err (in drunkenness)

Check your Strong's Keyboard321...
...You will see I'm not pulling your leg here.
...It's a different # & meaning than, say, 2 Sam 19,26.

So, how do you answer this?

 

[keyboard321]

Yes, Really.

Let's look at it again.

Proverbs 20,1
Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: AND whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise

Is this ^ the same wine as used in the following passages?

Genesis 27,28
Therefore God give thee of the dew of heaven, and the fatness of the earth, and plenty of corn and wine:

Deut 7,13
And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee


So, wine is said to be a "blessing" from God yet you are suggesting the Bible says it's a mocker...
....I would suggest that you read Proverbs 20, 1 again.
....And realize it is saying the abuse of wine and strong drink is a mocker.
....No different than eating until you can't move.

No, they are not the same. Proverbs 20:1 is Strong's H7941 - shekar

which means
strong drink, intoxicating drink, fermented or intoxicating liquor

Yes, wine is a blessing. And I want to clarify that I'm not suggesting that wine is a mocker but the Bible itself is suggesting that wine is a mocker.

And Deut 7:13 and Genesis 27:28 are both Strong's H8492 - tiyrowsh

which means

wine, fresh or new wine, must, freshly pressed wine - - - meaning not fermented

I followed your suggestion and I read again Proverbs 20:1 but I can't see that it's saying the abuse of wine and strong drink is a mocker rather what I've understood in that passage that it's simply saying that wine is a mocker and strong drink is raging.....and who ever take those are not wise

If you are "deceived".


H7686 in Strong's
2) to swerve, meander, reel, roll, be intoxicated, err (in drunkenness)

Check your Strong's Keyboard321...
...You will see I'm not pulling your leg here.
...It's a different # & meaning than, say, 2 Sam 19,26.

So, how do you answer this?

Yes, I checked it again here's it is.

In Proverbs 20:1 deceived is Strong's H7686 - shagah

1) to go astray, stray, err
a) (Qal)
1) to err, stray
2) to swerve, meander, reel, roll, be intoxicated, err (in drunkenness)
3) to go astray (morally)
4) to commit sin of ignorance or inadvertence, err (ignorantly)

b) (Hiphil)
1) to lead astray
2) to lead astray, mislead (mentally)
3) to lead astray (morally)


Let's look in other Bible versions


NKJV - Wine is a mocker, Strong drink is a brawler, And whoever is led astray by it is not wise.

NLT - Wine produces mockers; alcohol leads to brawls. Those led astray by drink cannot be wise.

NIV - Wine is a mocker and beer a brawler; whoever is led astray by them is not wise.

ESV - Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler, and whoever is led astray by it is not wise.

NASB - Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler, And whoever *is intoxicated by it is not wise.

ASV - Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler; And whosoever erreth thereby is not wise.

What I understand after reading (the above) is it simply says that whosoever consumes it will not be wise.

 

[JohnMarsten]

Strong drink is translated as "shekar". Shekar is condemned by Solomon as brawler and Isaiah pronounces a woe to those who run after shekar.

Also, the above verses doesn't tell us that drinking wine is ok. The passage tells us how to transport offerings when presenting it to the Lord in long distances, Moses even recommended to carry money rather than carrying offering of beasts, grain and etc..Animal sacrifices can be eaten but drink offerings should be poured to the ground.

"And the drink offering thereof shall be the fourth part of an hin for the one lamb: in the holy place shalt thou cause the strong wine to be poured unto the LORD for a drink offering."

the text says "anything you wish"...


anyways I think I give it up argueing about the wine/strong drink/grape juice stuff, everyone will believe what he or she either wants to beliebe, or is taught to believe, let everyone be convinced in his own right...

 

[keyboard321]

the text says "anything you wish"...


anyways I think I give it up argueing about the wine/strong drink/grape juice stuff, everyone will believe what he or she either wants to beliebe, or is taught to believe, let everyone be convinced in his own right...

Let the Holy Spirit lead us into all truth.

 

[JohnMarsten]

Let the Holy Spirit lead us into all truth.

yep! I can only wish...

 

[Pythons]

No, they are not the same. Proverbs 20:1 is Strong's H7941 - shekar

which means
strong drink, intoxicating drink, fermented or intoxicating liquor

Yes, wine is a blessing. And I want to clarify that I'm not suggesting that wine is a mocker but the Bible itself is suggesting that wine is a mocker.

And Deut 7:13 and Genesis 27:28 are both Strong's H8492 - tiyrowsh

which means

wine, fresh or new wine, must, freshly pressed wine - - - meaning not fermented

I followed your suggestion and I read again Proverbs 20:1 but I can't see that it's saying the abuse of wine and strong drink is a mocker rather what I've understood in that passage that it's simply saying that wine is a mocker and strong drink is raging.....and who ever take those are not wise
Yes, I checked it again here's it is.

In Proverbs 20:1 deceived is Strong's H7686 - shagah

1) to go astray, stray, err
a) (Qal)
1) to err, stray
2) to swerve, meander, reel, roll, be intoxicated, err (in drunkenness)
3) to go astray (morally)
4) to commit sin of ignorance or inadvertence, err (ignorantly)

b) (Hiphil)
1) to lead astray
2) to lead astray, mislead (mentally)
3) to lead astray (morally)


Let's look in other Bible versions


NKJV - Wine is a mocker, Strong drink is a brawler, And whoever is led astray by it is not wise.

NLT - Wine produces mockers; alcohol leads to brawls. Those led astray by drink cannot be wise.

NIV - Wine is a mocker and beer a brawler; whoever is led astray by them is not wise.

ESV - Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler, and whoever is led astray by it is not wise.

NASB - Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler, And whoever *is intoxicated by it is not wise.

ASV - Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler; And whosoever erreth thereby is not wise.

What I understand after reading (the above) is it simply says that whosoever consumes it will not be wise.

You must have a different Strong's, one that's unlike any other strong's.

Pro 20:1Wine 3196 [is] a mocker 3887, strong drink 7941 [is] raging 1993: and whosoever is deceived 7686 thereby is not wise 2449.

DECEIVED = 7686.....
...And whoever is DRUNK, INTOXICATED, ETC is not wise.

 

[keyboard321]

You must have a different Strong's, one that's unlike any other strong's.




DECEIVED = 7686.....
...And whoever is DRUNK, INTOXICATED, ETC is not wise.

I'm using blueletterbible.org

 

[Pythons]

I'm using blueletterbible.org

Then you know the rebuke is NOT from drinking wine or strong drink....
...But abusing it to the point one becomes staggering drunk.
...I.E. "Decieved".

The Bible is explicit that wine is one of the many blessings God gives us....
...The Bible is also explicit that some people twist God's blessings into sin.
...If a person is controlled by drinking THAT is what is condemned by Scripture.
...Not that wine ( which is said multiple times to be blessing ) is a sin.

Proverbs 23,20
Be not among winebibbers; among riotous eaters of flesh: For the drunkard and the glutton shall come to poverty: and drowsiness shall clothe a man with rags.

Proverbs 23,2
And put a knife to thy throat, if thou be a man given to appetite

Galations 5,19
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Gluttony is being led astray by food....
...In the exact same way a person is led away ( deceived ) by drink.
...This is not to say food is bad - but the abuse of food.

 

[keyboard321]

Then you know the rebuke is NOT from drinking wine or strong drink....
...But abusing it to the point one becomes staggering drunk.
...I.E. "Decieved".

The Bible is explicit that wine is one of the many blessings God gives us....
...The Bible is also explicit that some people twist God's blessings into sin.
...If a person is controlled by drinking THAT is what is condemned by Scripture.
...Not that wine ( which is said multiple times to be blessing ) is a sin.

Read again post number 53.

Sure, gluttony and drunkenness are being condemned

And Deut 7:13 and Genesis 27:28 are both Strong's H8492 - tiyrowsh

which means

wine, fresh or new wine, must, freshly pressed wine - - - meaning not fermented

In Proverbs 20:1 deceived is Strong's H7686 - shagah

1) to go astray, stray, err
a) (Qal)
1) to err, stray
2) to swerve, meander, reel, roll, be intoxicated, err (in drunkenness)
3) to go astray (morally)
4) to commit sin of ignorance or inadvertence, err (ignorantly)

b) (Hiphil)
1) to lead astray
2) to lead astray, mislead (mentally)
3) to lead astray (morally)


Let's look in other Bible versions


NKJV - Wine is a mocker, Strong drink is a brawler, And whoever is led astray by it is not wise.

NLT - Wine produces mockers; alcohol leads to brawls. Those led astray by drink cannot be wise.

NIV - Wine is a mocker and beer a brawler; whoever is led astray by them is not wise.

ESV - Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler, and whoever is led astray by it is not wise.

NASB - Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler, And whoever *is intoxicated by it is not wise.

ASV - Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler; And whosoever erreth thereby is not wise.

What I understand after reading (the above) is it simply says that whosoever consumes it will not be wise.