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Doctrine about everything!!!???!!!

JohnMarsten

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Inspired by some of the threads I was thinking, what is the most important doctrine? If there is such?

For example, there is the doctrine of the trinity, I guess, for me it is actually of no importance as such. WHy?

Well, the bible does not talk about trinity? in the beginning it starts with monotheism, however, David (the Lord said to my Lord) was aware that there is more to it, Jesus told the disciples to baptize in the name of the Father, the Sun and the Holy Spirit. I dont know if THey wanna be called the trinity but what I know is that all THREE are indeed important. In the end I know that I need Jesus Christ to be saved, He is the way, the truth and the life, no one can come to the father except through him.

So why should I invest my time in some trinitarian dispute? WIll people go to hell if they dont include the Holy Spirit in the Godhead? For me such a discussion is sort of a waste of time, but maybe the time hasnt come for this yet, and it will be important for me in the future.

So, which doctrines are indeed important, and which are better to be left alone? Does one need to have all of them doctrines right??
 

JohnMarsten

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Having been SDA for many many years I can tell you that only the 4th commandment matters. There maybe some ultra hardcore SDA's out there that think things like the trinity matters, but they are few and far between.

only the fourth commandment?? wow!
 
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k4c

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The issue at hand is eternal life. Where does eternal life come from?

John 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Eternal life comes from a knowing through a love relationship, not a doing. The doing will come as a result of love.

We should be more concerned with the principles Jesus taught, rather than, doctrinal dogma. Doctrines come and go but love for God and love for others will be for all eternity.

Jesus once healed a man who was crippled for at least 38 years. When the religious men saw that the man was set free from his life long bondage of being cripple what did they say? They asked the man with a very stern religious tone, "Who told you to carry your bed on the Sabbath?" To me, they missed the priniciples of love and Sabbath keeping because of doctrinal dogma.

As far as the trinity goes, I believe we can find the Bible teaches a tri-unity within the godhead but it is a conclusion one must come to with many hours of study. So to me, to make the trinity doctrine the end all of what a Christian is is wrong. I believe there is a murderous spirit of doctrinal dogma behind the trinity doctrine itself that is not of God. This spirit burns people at the stake, it excommunicates people it even changes the Bible so it can be accepted by all believers. For example, the doorway for most people to enter into our relationship with God is seen in being baptized in the name of Jesus.

Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus..

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

If the spirit behind the trinity doctrine wanted to make all the people confess the trinity doctrine the place to do it would be at the baptizm. Did this spirit of doctrinal dogma do this? Yes it did!!!

The Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics:
As to Matthew 28:19, it says: It is the central piece of evidence for the traditional (Trinitarian) view. If it were undisputed, this would, of course, be decisive, but its trustworthiness is impugned on grounds of textual criticism, literary criticism and historical criticism. The same Encyclopedia further states that: "The obvious explanation of the silence of the New Testament on the triune name, and the use of another (JESUS NAME) formula in Acts and Paul, is that this other formula was the earlier, and the triune formula is a later addition."

Edmund Schlink, The Doctrine of Baptism, page 28:
"The baptismal command in its Matthew 28:19 form can not be the historical origin of Christian baptism. At the very least, it must be assumed that the text has been transmitted in a form expanded by the [Catholic] church."

The Tyndale New Testament Commentaries, I, 275:
"It is often affirmed that the words in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost are not the ipsissima verba [exact words] of Jesus, but...a later liturgical addition."

Wilhelm Bousset, Kyrios Christianity, page 295:
"The testimony for the wide distribution of the simple baptismal formula [in the Name of Jesus] down into the second century is so overwhelming that even in Matthew 28:19, the Trinitarian formula was later inserted."

The Catholic Encyclopedia, II, page 263:
"The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the second century."

Hastings Dictionary of the Bible 1963, page 1015:
"The Trinity.-...is not demonstrable by logic or by Scriptural proofs,...The term Trias was first used by Theophilus of Antioch (c AD 180),...(The term Trinity) not found in Scripture..." "The chief Trinitarian text in the NT is the baptismal formula in Mt 28:19...This late post-resurrection saying, not found in any other Gospel or anywhere else in the NT, has been viewed by some scholars as an interpolation into Matthew. It has also been pointed out that the idea of making disciples is continued in teaching them, so that the intervening reference to baptism with its Trinitarian formula was perhaps a later insertion into the saying. Finally, Eusebius's form of the (ancient) text ("in my name" rather than in the name of the Trinity) has had certain advocates. (Although the Trinitarian formula is now found in the modern-day book of Matthew), this does not guarantee its source in the historical teaching of Jesus. It is doubtless better to view the (Trinitarian) formula as derived from early (Catholic) Christian, perhaps Syrian or Palestinian, baptismal usage (cf Didache 7:1-4), and as a brief summary of the (Catholic) Church's teaching about God, Christ, and the Spirit:..."

The Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge:
"Jesus, however, cannot have given His disciples this Trinitarian order of baptism after His resurrection; for the New Testament knows only one baptism in the name of Jesus (Acts 2:38; 8:16; 10:43; 19:5; Gal. 3:27; Rom. 6:3; 1 Cor. 1:13-15), which still occurs even in the second and third centuries, while the Trinitarian formula occurs only in Matt. 28:19, and then only again (in the) Didache 7:1 and Justin, Apol. 1:61...Finally, the distinctly liturgical character of the formula...is strange; it was not the way of Jesus to make such formulas... the formal authenticity of Matt. 28:19 must be disputed..." page 435.

The Jerusalem Bible, a scholarly Catholic work, states:
"It may be that this formula, (Triune Matthew 28:19) so far as the fullness of its expression is concerned, is a reflection of the (Man-made) liturgical usage established later in the primitive (Catholic) community. It will be remembered that Acts speaks of baptizing "in the name of Jesus,"..."

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Vol. 4, page 2637, Under "Baptism," says:
"Matthew 28:19 in particular only canonizes a later ecclesiastical situation, that its universalism is contrary to the facts of early Christian history, and its Trinitarian formula (is) foreign to the mouth of Jesus."

New Revised Standard Version says this about Matthew 28:19:
"Modern critics claim this formula is falsely ascribed to Jesus and that it represents later (Catholic) church tradition, for nowhere in the book of Acts (or any other book of the Bible) is baptism performed with the name of the Trinity..."

James Moffett's New Testament Translation:
In a footnote on page 64 about Matthew 28:19 he makes this statement: "It may be that this (Trinitarian) formula, so far as the fullness of its expression is concerned, is a reflection of the (Catholic) liturgical usage established later in the primitive (Catholic) community, It will be remembered that Acts speaks of baptizing "in the name of Jesus, cf. Acts 1:5 +."

Tom Harpur:
Tom Harpur, former Religion Editor of the Toronto Star in his "For Christ's sake," page 103 informs us of these facts: "All but the most conservative scholars agree that at least the latter part of this command [Triune part of Matthew 28:19] was inserted later. The [Trinitarian] formula occurs nowhere else in the New Testament, and we know from the only evidence available [the rest of the New Testament] that the earliest Church did not baptize people using these words ("in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost") baptism was "into" or "in" the name of Jesus alone. Thus it is argued that the verse originally read "baptizing them in My Name" and then was expanded [changed] to work in the [later Catholic Trinitarian] dogma. In fact, the first view put forward by German critical scholars as well as the Unitarians in the nineteenth century, was stated as the accepted position of mainline scholarship as long ago as 1919, when Peake's commentary was first published: "The Church of the first days (AD 33) did not observe this world-wide (Trinitarian) commandment, even if they knew it. The command to baptize into the threefold [Trinity] name is a late doctrinal expansion."

The Bible Commentary 1919 page 723:
Dr. Peake makes it clear that: "The command to baptize into the threefold name is a late doctrinal expansion. Instead of the words baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost we should probably read simply-"into My Name."

Theology of the New Testament:
By R. Bultmann, 1951, page 133 under Kerygma of the Hellenistic Church and the Sacraments. The historical fact that the verse Matthew 28:19 was altered is openly confesses to very plainly. "As to the rite of baptism, it was normally consummated as a bath in which the one receiving baptism completely submerged, and if possible in flowing water as the allusions of Acts 8:36, Heb. 10:22, Barn. 11:11 permit us to gather, and as Did. 7:1-3 specifically says. According to the last passage, [the apocryphal Catholic Didache] suffices in case of the need if water is three times poured [false Catholic sprinkling doctrine] on the head. The one baptizing names over the one being baptized the name of the Lord Jesus Christ," later expanded [changed] to the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit."

Doctrine and Practice in the Early Church:
By Dr. Stuart G. Hall 1992, pages 20 and 21. Professor Stuart G. Hall was the former Chair of Ecclesiastical History at King's College, London England. Dr. Hall makes the factual statement that Catholic Trinitarian Baptism was not the original form of Christian Baptism, rather the original was Jesus name baptism. "In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," although those words were not used, as they later are, as a formula. Not all baptisms fitted this rule." Dr Hall further, states: "More common and perhaps more ancient was the simple, "In the name of the Lord Jesus or, Jesus Christ." This practice was known among Marcionites and Orthodox; it is certainly the subject of controversy in Rome and Africa about 254, as the anonymous tract De rebaptismate ("On rebaptism") shows."

The Beginnings of Christianity: The Acts of the Apostles Volume 1, Prolegomena 1:
The Jewish Gentile, and Christian Backgrounds by F. J. Foakes Jackson and Kirsopp Lake 1979 version pages 335-337. "There is little doubt as to the sacramental nature of baptism by the middle of the first century in the circles represented by the Pauline Epistles, and it is indisputable in the second century. The problem is whether it can in this (Trinitarian) form be traced back to Jesus, and if not what light is thrown upon its history by the analysis of the synoptic Gospels and Acts.
 
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JohnMarsten

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OK! I get your point K4C,

but as far my own understanding goes: I cannot (for myself) decide what is right scenario here, maybe some words have been added maybe not. Will I go to hell if the truth turned out to be a different one??

I mean, If I believe in Jesus Christ, isnt that all that is required (in a way)? Is accepting or not accepting the trinity doctrine in any way vital?

I understand that people might have been burnt at the stake and stuff but is this question really a matter of life and death?? ( I honestly dont know the answers to these questions)

Lets take another example: The doctrine of baptism. From what I understand, people shouldnt be baptized at an infant or baby age, for known reasons. This is something that the bible is very clear about... no problems with that... it somehow affects spirituality in my opinion, consciously experienced baptism will probably have another effect than funny alternative. Whereas IMO the trinity doctrine doesnt do anything, at least thats the way I see it today
 
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k4c

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OK! I get your point K4C,

but as far my own understanding goes: I cannot (for myself) decide what is right scenario here, maybe some words have been added maybe not. Will I go to hell if the truth turned out to be a different one??

I mean, If I believe in Jesus Christ, isnt that all that is required (in a way)? Is accepting or not accepting the trinity doctrine in any way vital?

I understand that people might have been burnt at the stake and stuff but is this question really a matter of life and death?? ( I honestly dont know the answers to these questions)

Lets take another example: The doctrine of baptism. From what I understand, people shouldnt be baptized at an infant or baby age, for known reasons. This is something that the bible is very clear about... no problems with that... it somehow affects spirituality in my opinion, consciously experienced baptism will probably have another effect than funny alternative. Whereas IMO the trinity doctrine doesnt do anything, at least thats the way I see it today

Eternal life is not found in doctrinal dogma, but rather, it's about having a mind changing experience with the love of God seen and expressed in the life and teachings of Jesus.

John 5:39-40 “You search the Scriptures, (doctrinal dogma) for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 'But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

You think you have eternal life because of the rightness of your doctrines.

Jesus said, "If you've seen Me, you've seen the Father". The same way Jesus loved and treated the lost is the same way the Father loves and treats the lost. It was those with the religious dogma who had a problem with Jesus.

If the rightness of our doctrines is motivated by trying to avoid the sufferings of hell or to gain the glories of heaven then we will become as those who carry religious dogma. Why is this? Because the motive to gain the glories of heaven or avoid the sufferings of hell is still motived by self and not love for God and nighbor. You will put rightness in belief and rightness in behavior above relationship. You will say things like, "I've kept them from my youth" but you will not help the suffering needy all around you even though you are very rich.

Let people see God's love in you by you loving others, there is no law against this nor will you be lacking in anything when it comes to God who is loving through you.

Galatians 5:23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

Romans 13:8-9 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if [there is] any other commandment, are [all] summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
 
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JohnMarsten

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Eternal life is not found in doctrinal dogma, but rather, it's about having a mind changing experience with the love of God seen and expressed in the life and teachings of Jesus.

John 5:39-40 “You search the Scriptures, (doctrinal dogma) for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 'But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

You think you have eternal life because of the rightness of your doctrines.

Jesus said, "If you've seen Me, you've seen the Father". The same way Jesus loved and treated the lost is the same way the Father loves and treats the lost. It was those with the religious dogma who had a problem with Jesus.

If the things we do are to avoid the sufferings of hell or to gain the glories of heaven then we will become as those who carry religious dogma. Why is this? Because the motive to gain the glories of heaven or avoid the sufferings of hell is still motived by self and not love for God and nighbor. You will put rightness in belief and rightness in behavior above relationship. You will say things like, "I've kept them from my youth" but you will not help the suffering needy all around you even though you are very rich.

Let people see God's love in you by you loving others, there is no law against this nor will you be lacking in anything when it comes to God who is loving through you.

Galatians 5:23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

Romans 13:8-9 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if [there is] any other commandment, are [all] summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

thats true and I agree with it! like said there is no law against such!

why then have I opened this thread?

Its because I have come to the realization that in the SDA church (I dont know too many other churches, and you can only truly know a church after having been a member) doctrines are above everything (I kinda mispelled the thread title) and the doctrine of love is sometimes congruent with the ten commandments. IMHO love is the missing link in the SDA church. IMO this is because people are lost in doctrines (even erroneous doctrines) spend too much time reading EGW, focusing too much on health reform etc.

But then how does love manifest? maybe I have a wrong understanding, but what I have observed is that most of SDA people meet up for church services, some other church meetings, but as a whole there is no unity, friendship, groups are created, people are put on the outside, and in the end it seems as if doctrines are in the front and the brotherly love that Jesus prescribed.

How do you experience the brotherly love within or even without the church?

Is is sufficient if I dont kill my neighbor to manifest love?? If I dont make it up to his wife?

Can I love a brother who thinks differently than I do? I mean there is lots of looking down on people who dont follow certain rules like health reform by some. Maybe I am overreacting but as of now I think that the whole structure of church and its service is against brotherly and sisterly love.
 
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k4c

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thats true and I agree with it! like said there is no law against such!

why then have I opened this thread?

Its because I have come to the realization that in the SDA church (I dont know too many other churches, and you can only truly know a church after having been a member) doctrines are above everything (I kinda mispelled the thread title) and the doctrine of love is sometimes congruent with the ten commandments. IMHO love is the missing link in the SDA church. IMO this is because people are lost in doctrines (even erroneous doctrines) spend too much time reading EGW, focusing too much on health reform etc.

But then how does love manifest? maybe I have a wrong understanding, but what I have observed is that most of SDA people meet up for church services, some other church meetings, but as a whole there is no unity, friendship, groups are created, people are put on the outside, and in the end it seems as if doctrines are in the front and the brotherly love that Jesus prescribed.

How do you experience the brotherly love within or even without the church?

Is is sufficient if I dont kill my neighbor to manifest love?? If I dont make it up to his wife?

Can I love a brother who thinks differently than I do? I mean there is lots of looking down on people who dont follow certain rules like health reform by some. Maybe I am overreacting but as of now I think that the whole structure of church and its service is against brotherly and sisterly love.

Your concerns are as old as the gospel. Jesus has to deal with them, the apostles had to deal with them and we have to deal with them.

If we're being motivated to obey God to avoid hell or gain heaven then our motive is still self.

If your motive for being with your wife is the fact that her father is rich how will that make your wife feel?

If our motive for obeying God is because heaven has streets of gold or because hell is hot, how will God feel?

Eternal life is a byproduct of our relastionship with God and love for God and people is a symptom of that byproduct.

The problem is, you can't have the byproduct without the relationship and you can't have the relationship without the symptom of the byproduct. You know what this tells us? It tells us that it's all God and our part is to just say, thank you.

No one came make this happen by force or doctrine no matter how much they want you to have a relationship with God. No one can make you love God or people, only God can through embracing the gospel (Good News) message. Our job is to let God love us through us loving each other. Teach people the way of God, not as a means to be accepted by God, but rather, to experience that abundant life the Jesus came to gives us.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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Having been SDA for many many years I can tell you that only the 4th commandment matters. There maybe some ultra hardcore SDA's out there that think things like the trinity matters, but they are few and far between.


If thats what the majority of Adventists think, it's a sad indication of the leadership of the church.

Christ's righteousness and loving obedience to the whole Law are what sister White and the other pioneers taught.
 
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OntheDL

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Having been SDA for many many years I can tell you that only the 4th commandment matters. There maybe some ultra hardcore SDA's out there that think things like the trinity matters, but they are few and far between.

Aren't you a former SDA? That's the reason.

The pillars of Adventism is not the sabbath, is not the health message, is not the mortality of the soul...

The pillars of Adventism is the Sanctuary message of which the essence is Righteousness by Faith. Ellen White saw in her time not 1 in 100 understood our message. Can you imagine today's church's ratio in her deplorable condition?
 
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MidnightCry

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Let me give a little tip, JohnMarsten.

If history teaches anything, it is this: Religious organizations, by nature, place loyalty and allegiance above the importance of truth. The reason for this is simple. All religious organizations embrace a collection of teachings which they believe to be God's truth and deviation from that body is considered schismatic and counterproductive.

The SDA Church, like every other religious body, will not preach the truth about what is coming upon the earth. They cannot go against their founding pioneers and their prophet, Ellen White. They would have to admit Ellen White made a mistake. And that will never happen.

That's why God will use 144,000 people from every denomination, full of the spirit of Elijah, to preach a final message to the people of earth. That way no religious group or organization will be able to take credit for saving people in a world that is perishing.

YSIC,
MidnightCry
 
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OntheDL

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Let me give a little tip, JohnMarsten.

If history teaches anything, it is this: Religious organizations, by nature, place loyalty and allegiance above the importance of truth. The reason for this is simple. All religious organizations embrace a collection of teachings which they believe to be God's truth and deviation from that body is considered schismatic and counterproductive.

The SDA Church, like every other religious body, will not preach the truth about what is coming upon the earth. They cannot go against their founding pioneers and their prophet, Ellen White. They would have to admit Ellen White made a mistake. And that will never happen.

That's why God will use 144,000 people from every denomination, full of the spirit of Elijah, to preach a final message to the people of earth. That way no religious group or organization will be able to take credit for saving people in a world that is perishing.

YSIC,
MidnightCry

Now I'm one of the most ardent critics of the general conference of the SDA church. I think I know a lot more on what they have done wrong in teaching doctrine and in practice than you.

But I must object to the underlined statement. The bible says God preserved a remnant onto Himself. And the remnant keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus.

So what you are saying is that God has no true church on earth, no true presentation of Himself. Then it must be sad and what are you doing in the SDA church?

The SDA church will not teach the truth and will not go against their prophet Ellen White? When you make such statement, I must ask, 'are you qualified enough to judge inspiration?'

You need to be careful not to be presumptuous.
 
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JohnMarsten

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Now I'm one of the most ardent critics of the general conference of the SDA church. I think I know a lot more on what they have done wrong in teaching doctrine and in practice than you.

But I must object to the underlined statement. The bible says God preserved a remnant onto Himself. And the remnant keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus.

So what you are saying is that God has no true church on earth, no true presentation of Himself. Then it must be sad and what are you doing in the SDA church?

The SDA church will not teach the truth and will not go against their prophet Ellen White? When you make such statement, I must ask, 'are you qualified enough to judge inspiration?'

You need to be careful not to be presumptuous.

the basic problem here is that you claim the SDA to be the true presentation OK, but then why was the God of the bible a different God then?

Have you ever thought about why he never forbade alcohol in the new testament but even endorsed it? He cannot come up with a new plan calling something sin that was Ok with His holy nation back in the day.

Now if something like that and other follies are being taught by EGW it is only natural that people are gonna doubt that and if the leadership admitted she made a mistake that would clearly shake the foundation of the church and even the ignorant members would come up and start asking questions... besides they would make a fool of themselves now after over 150 years... right? Right!
 
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keyboard321

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the basic problem here is that you claim the SDA to be the true presentation OK, but then why was the God of the bible a different God then?

Have you ever thought about why he never forbade alcohol in the new testament but even endorsed it? He cannot come up with a new plan calling something sin that was Ok with His holy nation back in the day.

Now if something like that and other follies are being taught by EGW it is only natural that people are gonna doubt that and if the leadership admitted she made a mistake that would clearly shake the foundation of the church and even the ignorant members would come up and start asking questions... besides they would make a fool of themselves now after over 150 years... right? Right!

Hi :wave:

Can you show where in the NT where alcohol is endorsed? I can't remember that alcohol was endorsed in NT


:bye:
 
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JohnMarsten

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Hi :wave:

Can you show where in the NT where alcohol is endorsed? I can't remember that alcohol was endorsed in NT


:bye:

Sorry, actually I meant the old testament!

In the new testament we have it too (maybe not as endorsed

first Jesus turned water into choice wine

then Paul speaking about supper in 1 Corinthians 11:21

I understand people were supposed to eat and drink (wine) according to the example of Jesus, one way or another Paul was critisizing them that they were bringing their own supper, in the end one was drunk another was hungry, that means, they didnt share as they were supposed to, otherwise no one would have got drunk or remained hungry.

Thinking about SDA supper, getting drunk is impossible, but if one were to rely on that food he or she would die of starvation ;) which means SDA supper is merely symbolic whereas it should be a time of communion with real food and drink
 
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keyboard321

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Sorry, actually I meant the old testament!

In the new testament we have it too (maybe not as endorsed

first Jesus turned water into choice wine

then Paul speaking about supper in 1 Corinthians 11:21

I understand people were supposed to eat and drink (wine) according to the example of Jesus, one way or another Paul was critisizing them that they were bringing their own supper, in the end one was drunk another was hungry, that means, they didnt share as they were supposed to, otherwise no one would have got drunk or remained hungry.

If you're referring to the wedding at Cana, remember that there were 6 pots for Jesus to fulfill. Each would hold up to 20-30 gallons and it would be 180 gallons of beverage!

If were going to believe that this was indeed a fermented wine, imagine Jesus made 180 gallons of destructive drug. And He would be contradicting His own Word (Habakkuk 2:15 ; Luke 12:26 ; Eph 5:18).
 
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JohnMarsten

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If you're referring to the wedding at Cana, remember that there were 6 pots for Jesus to fulfill. Each would hold up to 20-30 gallons and it would be 180 gallons of beverage!

If were going to believe that this was indeed a fermented wine, imagine Jesus made 180 gallons of destructive drug. And He would be contradicting His own Word (Habakkuk 2:15 ; Luke 12:26 ; Eph 5:18).

lets see

15Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!

that mayest look on their nakedness... hmmm... bad motives... I would never like to do that... I am purely hetero...

26 Since you cannot do this very little thing, why do you worry about the rest?

Maybe we have got something wrong

18 Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit,

here we can talk, dont have an answer to this

anyways... God himself allowed for a drink in the old testamtent times (5. Moses 14 go and check) so there is no contradiction if Jesus turns water into wine

as far as the amount is concerned? where are you heading? do you know for sure how many people were present at the wedding?? for how long the wine was to last (an hour, a day, a week), how big the pots were?

destructive drug? food is also destructive (ever thought about overeating?? look at those obese dudes, lets forbid food ;)

cars are destructive as well...

no really look at the context! If God allowed for a drink at one time lets claim He is against it in general. In the end I guess Moses is very reliable
 
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K

keyboard321

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lets see

15Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!

that mayest look on their nakedness... hmmm... bad motives... I would never like to do that... I am purely hetero...

26 Since you cannot do this very little thing, why do you worry about the rest?

Maybe we have got something wrong

18 Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit,

here we can talk, dont have an answer to this

anyways... God himself allowed for a drink in the old testamtent times (5. Moses 14 go and check) so there is no contradiction if Jesus turns water into wine

as far as the amount is concerned? where are you heading? do you know for sure how many people were present at the wedding?? for how long the wine was to last (an hour, a day, a week), how big the pots were?

destructive drug? food is also destructive (ever thought about overeating?? look at those obese dudes, lets forbid food ;)

cars are destructive as well...

no really look at the context! If God allowed for a drink at one time lets claim He is against it in general. In the end I guess Moses is very reliable

You don't know that alcohol is destructive to our own body?

Of course overeating is not good., but to say that food itself is destructive is I think questionable (depending of the food of course).

Cars are destructive? yeah its destructive if you don't know how to use a car.,

hmmm...did Noah ever knew that he will be naked after he drunk the wine?

If I give someone a fermented wine (I dont have bad motive, I just want to give him) and he got drunk and did something not good is it not my fault after all? (Habakkuk 2:15)
 
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JohnMarsten

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Dont get me wrong here, the discussion is alcohol is indeed destructive is a little bit pointless!!!

BECAUSE: be it as it may GOD himself allowed for a drink of wine/string drink (if you had checked 5.Moses 14 you would know, or is there any other way to understand that passage), so will you now question Gods decision making? will you tell Him that alcohol is desctructive and stuff, teaching Him that its sin and that He apparently made a mistake back in the day?

Besides doesnt Paul teach Timothy (I guess) to drink a little wine?? to help cure him (as far as I remember correctly). So you imply that he was wrong as well, overlooking the destructive nature of alcohol...

I dont wanna be wiser than the Lord, and I dont wanna make any one stumble because of alcohol, if somebody wants to live an abstinent life (even non christians do so) then why should I encourage him to drink, on the other hand I dont wanna demonise something that is not meant to be demonised, or call it sin and others sinners because they have a drink every now and then, because then my teaching becomes unbiblical.

Is it again wrong to be right??

As far as Noah and everyone else is concerned, well, come on, will you tell me that God didnt know about that? even beforehand? why didnt He tell the israelites not to drink at all? to kill everyone that drinks?

BETTER! not even plant vineyards, lets not even drink grape juice as it might ferment and make you drunk by accident.



You don't know that alcohol is destructive to our own body?

Of course overeating is not good., but to say that food itself is destructive is I think questionable (depending of the food of course).

Cars are destructive? yeah its destructive if you don't know how to use a car.,

hmmm...did Noah ever knew that he will be naked after he drunk the wine?

If I give someone a fermented wine (I dont have bad motive, I just want to give him) and he got drunk and did something not good is it not my fault after all? (Habakkuk 2:15)
 
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