Doctrinal Surprises

[Wigglesworth]

This was a surprise to me:

Do Anglicans Believe Baptism is necessary for Salvation?
Your answer was: No Correct Answer: Yes
Your answer was wrong

 

[RobNJ]

If that's the same quiz from yesterday...It NEEDS work!!

 

[Songspinner]

Christ hath ordained two Sacraments only, as generally necessary to salvation; that is to say, Baptism, and the Supper of the Lord.

From the 1928 ECUSA BoCP

But of course like everything else anglican...its upto the reader to interpret it as they will

 

[Wigglesworth]

The other question I got wrong was about the Apocrypha. I realize that many do not recognize it to be as authoritative, but does anybody in here reject it flat out?

It's in the 39 Articles, and the folks who normally reject the Articles are the Anglo-Catholic types who would like the Apocrypha anyway. That would seem to cover just about everybody except the lowest of the Low, Super-Hyper-High Octane-Maximum Calvinists, Reformed to the point of deformed, and the evangelicalist of the Evangelical, churchers.

No offense intended. Please forgive attempted dry humor if it doesn't giggle you.

 

[Colabomb]

The other question I got wrong was about the Apocrypha. I realize that many do not recognize it to be as authoritative, but does anybody in here reject it flat out?

It's in the 39 Articles, and the folks who normally reject the Articles are the Anglo-Catholic types who would like the Apocrypha anyway. That would seem to cover just about everybody except the lowest of the Low, Super-Hyper-High Octane-Maximum Calvinists, Reformed to the point of deformed, and the evangelicalist of the Evangelical, churchers.

No offense intended. Please forgive attempted dry humor if it doesn't giggle you.

Baptism is necessary for Salvation.

 

[julian the apostate]

Baptism is necessary for Salvation.

or could we say that baptism confers salvation

the thief on the cross and st paul on the road to damascus could be said to have undergone conversion,,

aka experiential baptism

 

[gtsecc]

Christ can save whomever he chooses.

 

[Colabomb]

Christ can save whomever he chooses.

Let me clarify, except for in the obvious circumstances where it is not availible, or a person is ignorant to it, it is necessary.

 

[julian the apostate]

i believe in baptismal regeneration, but i do not believe that baptism is necessary for salvation

(roman catholic background coming through)

 

[Albion]

i believe in baptismal regeneration, but i do not believe that baptism is necessary for salvation

(roman catholic background coming through)

I believe that songspinner has directed us to the best answer (from the Articles of Religion as carried, I think, in every Book of Common Prayer): "generally necessary." Both sides of the issue here seem to be saying that.

 

[afnospam]

Well...... to quote 1 Peter 3:18-22 (and without comment):
"For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also–not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand–with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him."

AMEN.

 

[thejesusfish90]

When I see anyting that refers to baptism being nesseary for salvation I interpet it as being spiritual baptism... I mean the baptism itself wont save you... fulfiulling the promises made at that baptism is what will... however if someone isn't baptised in their life then I do not believe that they arent saved... I mean when they believed they were baptised in the spirit which is what is important not the sacrament itself....

As for the Apocryphal books (they're ones like 1&2 Maccabrees)... Im very boarderline about them... I dont think I would in the end accept them... I mean even jewish scholars in the early church times agreed with the early church in getting rid of them due to their dubious reliability.... (the roman catholic church If i am not mistaken actually bought the apocryphal books in after to the reformation)...

YBIC

Chris

 

[ahab]

However I think Peter is talking to believers here, so presumably they are already baptised by water and the spirit.

 

[chalice_thunder]

Christ can save whomever he chooses.

While I believe strongly that baptism is central to our faith, I MUST agree with gtsecc here.

Our understanding of everything (including sacramental theology) is limited. God's understanding, THANK GOD, has no bounds.

 

[pmcleanj]

The ambiguity we all run into here is rooted, I think, in the way Anglicans focus on salvation. We are usually not talking about our eternal destination. Very few of us experience conversion whilst hanging on a cross, and in such a circumstance God is, indeed, very able to save whomever God pleases, regardless of water baptism.

But for most of us, salvation begins when we transfer our allegiances from our birth family to our Heavenly Family, and begin living as citizens of the Heavenly Jerusalem while still resident on this earth. And living, day to day, within salvation requires that we be sacramentally grafted into Christ's Body and made to be children of our Heavenly Father. And that requires water baptism.

 

[Albion]

As I read through everyone's posts, I seem to be finding what looks like a debate with two sides...except that no one is taking the side that baptism is always, in every imaginable case, with no exceptions, necessary for salvation. Aren't we all really in agreement?

 

[Wigglesworth]

I'm not sure where to find the previous quote about baptism being "generally necessary for salvation" in the Articles.

However, I did read recently that, from an Anglican perspective, salvation includes not only justification but also holiness subsequent to justification. If the term salvation includes more than justification, then I can accept that water baptism is necessary for that kind of salvation. I consider water baptism to be absolutely necessary for discipleship.

With regard to whether water baptism is necessary for justification, I tend to rely on St. Paul's letter to the Romans for the answer:

8 Salvation that comes from trusting Christ—which is the message we preach—is already within easy reach. In fact, the Scriptures say, “The message is close at hand; it is on your lips and in your heart.” 9 For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved. 11 As the Scriptures tell us, “Anyone who believes in him will not be disappointed.”

It seems to me that to require water baptism for justification leads to the creation of alternatives for the unbaptised like baptism by desire, which tends to nullify the doctrine entirely as a practical matter.

 

[Albion]

You're right about the "generally necessary." It's in the prayerbook all right, but from the Catechism. The reference to it as from the Articles was a mistake.

 

[julian the apostate]

wigglesworth<<With regard to whether water baptism is necessary for justification, I tend to rely on St. Paul's letter to the Romans for the answer:


actually that passage you quoted is generally thought to be describing an early baptismal rite -

albion<<As I read through everyone's posts, I seem to be finding what looks like a debate with two sides...except that no one is taking the side that baptism is always, in every imaginable case, with no exceptions, necessary for salvation. Aren't we all really in agreement?


for once, it would appear so

 

[pmcleanj]

However, I did read recently that, from an Anglican perspective, salvation includes not only justification but also holiness subsequent to justification. If the term salvation includes more than justification, then I can accept that water baptism is necessary for that kind of salvation. I consider water baptism to be absolutely necessary for discipleship.

Apparently I can't give you any more reputation, so here's a public endorsement instead:

This is beautifully worded!

And sorry about accidentally editting your post I think I got it fully restored: please double check. At least I didn't do anything worse in my clumsiness!