Doctors vs. Oath

[loriersea]

I'm not sure what you are talking about. Doctors do participate in executions; this incident simply shows that they have the right to not be involved on moral grounds. Similarly, no doctor is forced to perform late-term abortions, or any abortions. A doctor can decline to perform an abortion on moral grounds, just as they can decline to participate in an execution.

I'd like you to provide any evidence that doctors do not have a right to NOT perform abortions.

But, of course, there's no evidence that women are having non-therapeautic third-trimester abortions, either, but that doesn't stop the pro-illegal abortion movement from pretending that hordes of women wake up at 32 weeks and decide to have an abortion for no reason.

 

[BillyWheaton]

How is it that doctors are not allowed to be a part of a death penalty execution (due to their oath)... yet there is no problem with a doctor performing a partial birth abortion?

I'm a doctor and an atheist and as far as I'm concerned, unless there is some issue with the health of the mother, I think both are unethical. I think the greater medical community does not want to confront this issue. but, the prevailing pro-abortion point of view is that "safe" abortions are better then "unsafe" abortions. If they are going to happen anyway, then they should be safe.

 

[Billnew]

How's this, please present one late-term abortion where the child would have survived.

The term partial birth is used to present a complete falsehood that the fetus is viable (able to survive outside the womb). The pratice of late-term abortion is used for non-viable fetuses and where the mother's life is at high risk.

Late term abortion means that unless in the first week or two of the third trimester that the baby is viable.
So how can a woman's life be saved by waiting for the baby to be expelled from the mothers body, when the Dr could easily do c section in minutes? Getting the baby out and stabilizing the mother at the same time.

But back to OP,
Most Dr can not do anything to end the life of
a criminal. As this is against their oath;Do no harm.
Just because the goverment says its ok, doesn't make it so.
I believe it is a personal decision of the Dr, as is the Dr performing the abortion. Not all Dr are involved in abortion. Not all OB/GYN
Drs are involved in abortion(except for emergencies.)
I do believe that the AMA could suspend a Dr for being invlved in an execution.
Dr

​

 

[ballfan]

So according to scripture, we are valid before we are even conceived.

I believe God does know us before we are conceived. He also knows us in the womb.

If two people that could consumate, decide not to one time, they may actually be abortionists according to scripture, because God already knows the one they are about to conceive.

Your arguement doesn't make sense. There is a time to be born. There is a time to die. Where does the bible say there is a time to be aborted? Its going to take a great distortion of scripture to come up with that.

Lets talk about the actual baby in the womb.

From the KJV.

Psa 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

which is more easily understood from a newer english version.

For it was you who formed my inward parts;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
— Psalm 139:13

A baby in the womb is a work of God. Would you agree to that?

What gives anyone the right to destroy this work of God? Why would a Christian support, in the least, those who would do so?

I can understand some on the board doing so. We have athiests, agnostics and even pagans. I understand why they might support it. They have no real foundation. But a Christian? That shouldn't be.

 

[ballfan]

I also find it hypocritical that people can be pro-life and pro-death penalty. But I suppose this is for another thread.

Its not at all hypocritical. People under the death penalty have done something to earn that status. What has a baby in the womb done thats deserving of death?

 

[momalle1]

I believe God does know us before we are conceived. He also knows us in the womb.




Your arguement doesn't make sense. There is a time to be born. There is a time to die. Where does the bible say there is a time to be aborted? Its going to take a great distortion of scripture to come up with that.

Lets talk about the actual baby in the womb.

From the KJV.

Psa 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

which is more easily understood from a newer english version.

For it was you who formed my inward parts;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
— Psalm 139:13

A baby in the womb is a work of God. Would you agree to that?

What gives anyone the right to destroy this work of God? Why would a Christian support, in the least, those who would do so?

I can understand some on the board doing so. We have athiests, agnostics and even pagans. I understand why they might support it. They have no real foundation. But a Christian? That shouldn't be.

First, thanks for taking my comments seriously rather than simply dismissing them. Is a baby in the womb the work of God? Yes, as is everything. I guess my question/comment relates in this way, pro-lifers say that life begins the moment an egg is fertilized, based on scripture. I'm not 100% sure how I feel about that to be honest, but the scripture says God creates you and knows you. Another passage says he knows you before you are even conceived, so how far back do we go? As far as I can tell, God is responsible for everything, but what is important is your soul, the bible does not tell us the exact moment when a soul is given to us, it's been left for us to interpret. So if God knows us before we are conceived, but are not conceived when we should be, he can simply give us our soul later. After all, everything is possible for God.

Support it? No, I do not, and I can't speak for everyone who is pro-choice. I do appreciate your last paragraph, and agree with it. While I disagree with abortion based on my faith, and probably would even without it, I don't agree with outlawing it for a couple of reasons. I don't believe I have the right to enforce my religious beliefs on others, and I also think there are times (very few) where one may be justified. Sometimes it seems that pro-lifers are simply happy that one is breathing. I happen to feel that life is such a gift that it is more than that, that the quality of that life should be a factor. I remember talking to a few pro-life friends I have during the Terri Schaivo case, and they stated that even if she had a living will that said she didn't want to be kept alive, they still would have supported legal action to maintain her life support. Regardless of how I feel, I can't support disrespecting another persons wishes about their own life. As for abortions, I do agree that most , at least in the US, are wrong. They seem to be used more for people that are too lazy to use contraception, or to irresponsible to plan ahead a bit. At the same time, if the U.S. were to ban these types of abortions, we really need to step up to the plate and devote the time and money to making our foster care and adoption process top-notch. Something geared towards ensuring the safety and quality of life for these children is the best ever. I have not seen anywhere where the pro-life crowd (people that usually feel they are taxed and governed too much) have proposed or promoted anything to help these children to be born and live well.

 

[loriersea]

A baby in the womb is a work of God. Would you agree to that?

What gives anyone the right to destroy this work of God? Why would a Christian support, in the least, those who would do so?

I can understand some on the board doing so. We have athiests, agnostics and even pagans. I understand why they might support it. They have no real foundation. But a Christian? That shouldn't be.

A murderer is also the work of God. A spider is the work of God. Everything in the natural world is the work of God. That doesn't mean that everything in the natural world is a person, or that we have a responsibility to nurture everything in the natural world at any cost.

Honestly, I can't understand why any Christian would be in favor of illegal abortion, and that is what most of the so-called "pro-life" movement is: the pro-illegal abortion movement. Is abortion somehow more morally acceptable when it is illegal? Is it more morally acceptable when it is dangerous? Can we turn a blind eye to it when we know that women who have abortions will be shamed and at risk, so that they are "getting what they deserve"?

Abortion was illegal in this country for hundreds of years, and women still had abortions. Many, many abortions. According to a 1986 study by the Guttenmacher Institute (which the pro-illegal abortion folks can bash as much as they want, but which is one of the few groups actually looking for FACTS about abortion rather than relying on rhetoric and emotion), as many as 1.2 illegal abortions occured in the years before Roe. Making abortion illegal does not stop abortions, it simply greatly increases the rate of dangerous, illegal abortions. How is that "pro-life" in any way? It isn't, plain and simple.

Illegal abortion does not stop abortion, or even reduce it by any significant amount: it just puts women in danger. That is not "pro-life," that is "anti-woman."

So, I would never, ever support illegal abortion, and I cannot understand why any Christian could. Abortion has occured in every society, and yet there is not one mention of abortion in the Old or New Testaments. Not one. Why not? It's not as if the biblical authors, or God, were unaware of the practice, and yet it is nowhere prohibited. You can quote poetic statements about God knowing us before conception all you want, but in the hundreds of laws in the OT, not one concerns abortion, and that is very significant.

Should people be encouraged to continue pregnancies and nurture an embryo to personhood? Yes. But, an embryo is not a person, and we should not legally prohibit people from having first trimester abortions, which wouldn't work, anyway. Instead, if people don't think abortions are right, they should address the reasons why women have abortions, and I can give you one big hint: women don't have abortions because they are legal. Nobody wakes up and says, "Hey, I'd love to get pregnant and have an abortion, and since it's legal, why not?" Nobody sees a positive pregnancy test and says, "Hey, if abortion was illegal, I'd have this child, but since it's legal, I'm going to have an abortion." They have them because they have an unwanted pregnancy, they are poor, they are young, they are scared, they are afraid that having a child will mean a life of social stigma, poverty, and lost opportunities, opportunities that would make life better for any future children they have. And, too often, they are right.

So why not do the truly Christian thing and address those issues, rather than lobbying to make abortion illegal so that hundreds of thousands if not over a million women every year would have dangerous, illegal abortion, and in thousands of cases, the sad event of an abortion would turn into the tragedy of the loss of a woman's life?

 

[CCGirl]

A murderer is also the work of God. A spider is the work of God. Everything in the natural world is the work of God. That doesn't mean that everything in the natural world is a person, or that we have a responsibility to nurture everything in the natural world at any cost.

Honestly, I can't understand why any Christian would be in favor of illegal abortion, and that is what most of the so-called "pro-life" movement is: the pro-illegal abortion movement. Is abortion somehow more morally acceptable when it is illegal? Is it more morally acceptable when it is dangerous? Can we turn a blind eye to it when we know that women who have abortions will be shamed and at risk, so that they are "getting what they deserve"?

Abortion was illegal in this country for hundreds of years, and women still had abortions. Many, many abortions. According to a 1986 study by the Guttenmacher Institute (which the pro-illegal abortion folks can bash as much as they want, but which is one of the few groups actually looking for FACTS about abortion rather than relying on rhetoric and emotion), as many as 1.2 illegal abortions occured in the years before Roe. Making abortion illegal does not stop abortions, it simply greatly increases the rate of dangerous, illegal abortions. How is that "pro-life" in any way? It isn't, plain and simple.

Illegal abortion does not stop abortion, or even reduce it by any significant amount: it just puts women in danger. That is not "pro-life," that is "anti-woman."

So, I would never, ever support illegal abortion, and I cannot understand why any Christian could. Abortion has occured in every society, and yet there is not one mention of abortion in the Old or New Testaments. Not one. Why not? It's not as if the biblical authors, or God, were unaware of the practice, and yet it is nowhere prohibited. You can quote poetic statements about God knowing us before conception all you want, but in the hundreds of laws in the OT, not one concerns abortion, and that is very significant.

Should people be encouraged to continue pregnancies and nurture an embryo to personhood? Yes. But, an embryo is not a person, and we should not legally prohibit people from having first trimester abortions, which wouldn't work, anyway. Instead, if people don't think abortions are right, they should address the reasons why women have abortions, and I can give you one big hint: women don't have abortions because they are legal. Nobody wakes up and says, "Hey, I'd love to get pregnant and have an abortion, and since it's legal, why not?" Nobody sees a positive pregnancy test and says, "Hey, if abortion was illegal, I'd have this child, but since it's legal, I'm going to have an abortion." They have them because they have an unwanted pregnancy, they are poor, they are young, they are scared, they are afraid that having a child will mean a life of social stigma, poverty, and lost opportunities, opportunities that would make life better for any future children they have. And, too often, they are right.

So why not do the truly Christian thing and address those issues, rather than lobbying to make abortion illegal so that hundreds of thousands if not over a million women every year would have dangerous, illegal abortion, and in thousands of cases, the sad event of an abortion would turn into the tragedy of the loss of a woman's life?

Once again, a great post Loriersea

 

[Lynden1000]

Its not at all hypocritical. People under the death penalty have done something to earn that status. What has a baby in the womb done thats deserving of death?

I guess it depends on your denomination. Some denominations (Roman Catholic for example) would say that ALL humans are inherently sinful via original sin and deserving of death.

Not that this is an argument for abortion. I'm nitpicking on the orthodoxy of that one particular statement.

 

[ballfan]

I guess it depends on your denomination. Some denominations (Roman Catholic for example) would say that ALL humans are inherently sinful via original sin and deserving of death.

Not that this is an argument for abortion. I'm nitpicking on the orthodoxy of that one particular statement.

They have a sinful nature but I don't think God assigns sin to a newborn babe. They are still innocent. I'm quite sure God would take this into account.

 

[ballfan]

A murderer is also the work of God. A spider is the work of God. Everything in the natural world is the work of God. That doesn't mean that everything in the natural world is a person, or that we have a responsibility to nurture everything in the natural world at any cost.

We are talking about babys in the womb and whether or not a Christian should support aborting them. A fairly limited topic. A baby is not a murderer. A baby, for this discussion, is not a spider. A baby, for this discussion, is a small helpless innocent person. A great work of God. Why would you want to abort it or support those would? It is destroying a sacred work of God.

Honestly, I can't understand why any Christian would be in favor of illegal abortion, and that is what most of the so-called "pro-life" movement is: the pro-illegal abortion movement.

Thats a total misrepresentation. Pro life doesn't favor "illegal abortion" at all. Christians don't favor so called "illegal abortions" either.

The problem with abortion and other perversions is that with them mankind has substituted himself for God. He has become his own God thus clearing his way to do such things as those.

 

[ballfan]

At the same time, if the U.S. were to ban these types of abortions, we really need to step up to the plate and devote the time and money to making our foster care and adoption process top-notch. Something geared towards ensuring the safety and quality of life for these children is the best ever. I have not seen anywhere where the pro-life crowd (people that usually feel they are taxed and governed too much) have proposed or promoted anything to help these children to be born and live well.

I think the response would be better than you believe. Actually I think most of these children would be born into circumstances where they would have good homes and lives. I don't feel that the means to live well is actually the problem. Mostly the problem is the "parents" seeing the baby as a drag on their own lives. I strongly suspect most have the means. But for those who don't, I think Christians will help support almost any program to take care of these children. Most of us are in a position to do so.

 

[momalle1]

I think the response would be better than you believe. Actually I think most of these children would be born into circumstances where they would have good homes and lives. I don't feel that the means to live well is actually the problem. Mostly the problem is the "parents" seeing the baby as a drag on their own lives. I strongly suspect most have the means. But for those who don't, I think Christians will help support almost any program to take care of these children. Most of us are in a position to do so.

Yes, most of us are in a position to do so. As someone who was adopted (and almost aborted), I have watched adoption in America most of my life. Unfortunatley, the reponse has not been good, I have no reason to believe it will be better. Right now, most children adopted in the US come from outside the US because it is so much easier and cheaper. Yes, the parents are seeing the child as a burden, but I'm talking about what happens to the children that are born who would have been aborted. We need to have something in place, something stellar. If many people who didn't want children saw an option other than abortion, they may just take it. Right now, you either want the child or don't, if you don't there aren't too many options. Putting a child up for adoption in America right now is a hit-or-miss option, and I'm being generous. The foster programs in the US are a sad joke. Again, I think pro-lifers, Christian or not, need to step up and push their politicians to get these programs in place.

 

[loriersea]

Thats a total misrepresentation. Pro life doesn't favor "illegal abortion" at all.

How? The only action the movement ever takes is trying to make abortion illegal. Many of its most vocal members even oppose efforts to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies and to provide economic support for the poor, as well as being the first to shun and label as harlots who deserve whatever happens to them women who get pregnant outside of marriage. So, what are they doing? They are pushing to have the abortions that currently occur converted from legal to illegal ones. That's all. They want women to have illegal abortions, so that getting pregnant outside of marriage will lead to punishment of some sort. They are in favor of illegal abortion, not in favor of life, and the fact that they can provide NO evidence that making abortion illegal would reduce the rate of abortion but still cheer at the thought of women being forced to undergo dangerous, illegal abortions proves that.

If you are not in favor of illegal abortion, then stop lobbying to make it illegal, and do something real to reduce the abortion rate, like promoting comprehensive sex ed; access to safe, affordable, effective birth control; social and economic support for the poor, especially poor single mothers; programs that allow teenage parents to continue their education while raising a child; and, I don't know, even something crazy like caring about the 20% of American children who live in poverty, the hundreds of thousands in the foster care system, and the millions without health insurance. But, that would mean actually valuing life and nurturing people, not just punishing women, so I guess it's not as fun, as well as way harder.

 

[momalle1]

How? The only action the movement ever takes is trying to make abortion illegal. Many of its most vocal members even oppose efforts to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies and to provide economic support for the poor, as well as being the first to shun and label as harlots who deserve whatever happens to them women who get pregnant outside of marriage. So, what are they doing? They are pushing to have the abortions that currently occur converted from legal to illegal ones. That's all. They want women to have illegal abortions, so that getting pregnant outside of marriage will lead to punishment of some sort. They are in favor of illegal abortion, not in favor of life, and the fact that they can provide NO evidence that making abortion illegal would reduce the rate of abortion but still cheer at the thought of women being forced to undergo dangerous, illegal abortions proves that.

If you are not in favor of illegal abortion, then stop lobbying to make it illegal, and do something real to reduce the abortion rate, like promoting comprehensive sex ed; access to safe, affordable, effective birth control; social and economic support for the poor, especially poor single mothers; programs that allow teenage parents to continue their education while raising a child; and, I don't know, even something crazy like caring about the 20% of American children who live in poverty, the hundreds of thousands in the foster care system, and the millions without health insurance. But, that would mean actually valuing life and nurturing people, not just punishing women, so I guess it's not as fun, as well as way harder.

There are many excellent points here, for pro-lifers to think about. Some think that you are either for or against abortion. To simplify the issue that much is really moronic. I'd love to live in a world where there is no abortion, where no one goes to bed hungry, where no one lies, cheats, steals or murders. The reality is I do live in that world and I need to deal with it, calling something wrong and trying to ban it is never going to work. If you want to end abortion, lead by example, and that means more than not having one yourself. Trying to force your beliefs on someone else is wrong, and has never worked once in history, why do you think it will work now? It's just like crime, conservatives seem to feel that it's simple, punish criminals. It's hardly that simple, and time has proven simple incarceration doesn't help reduce crime, it's a part of reducing it, but not the only answer. Making abortion illegal will solve nothing. If making it illegal will help you sleep better, then you are being fooled.

 

[ballfan]

Again, I think pro-lifers, Christian or not, need to step up and push their politicians to get these programs in place.

I don't think thats possible under the present climate. There is too much division on whether abortion should be allowed or not. I think pro lifers would like to see strong programs such as you suggest but those strongly in favor of abortion don't really care if these programs are in place or not. They want abortion as the option and at present they have the ears of enough of congress to forestall making abortion a thing of the past. Before what you suggest can work there needs to be a change in peoples hearts towards abortion. United we suceed. Divided we fail. And right at the present we are divided.

 

[momalle1]

I don't think thats possible under the present climate. There is too much division on whether abortion should be allowed or not. I think pro lifers would like to see strong programs such as you suggest but those strongly in favor of abortion don't really care if these programs are in place or not. They want abortion as the option and at present they have the ears of enough of congress to forestall making abortion a thing of the past. Before what you suggest can work there needs to be a change in peoples hearts towards abortion. United we suceed. Divided we fail. And right at the present we are divided.

I agree, at least on that issue, we are divided and stalled. I think these programs would go a long way in changing that. Without them, we'll be in the same exact place 100 years from now. Heck, call me progressive, but I'd like to see it change, with some leadership, we wouldn't need abortion laws because so few would want it as an option.

 

[loriersea]

I don't think thats possible under the present climate. There is too much division on whether abortion should be allowed or not. I think pro lifers would like to see strong programs such as you suggest but those strongly in favor of abortion don't really care if these programs are in place or not.

Again, the issue is not "pro lifers" versus "those strongly in favor of abortion"; the issue is "those who strongly favor illegal abortion" versus "those who strongly favor legal abortion," since we know that abortions have and will always occur. The only issues are: should they be legal or illegal abortions, and what can we do to reduce the number of them to as few as we possibly can?

Given that the opposition to comprehensive sex education, access to effective birth control and emergency contraception, government support for the poor, and any sense of treating single-parent families with tolerance and acceptance is nearly always made up of the very people who claim to be "pro-life," I've seen the exact opposite of what you are claiming. It is those who realize that legal abortion is better for society than illegal abortion who are also pushing for the changes that need to be made to make abortions rare.

I just cannot believe for a moment that the "pro-life" movement is sitting there going, "We'd love to have comprehensive sex education, universal access to safe and effective birth control, economic support for poor parents, and a society that accepts and supports single mothers, but first we just need to make abortion illegal. Then we'll do all that." No way. If abortion is made illegal, the so-called "pro-life" forces will be done with the issue. As long as its in the back alleys and can't be spoken about, it's fine if it goes on at the same rates it does now. As long as the woman having the abortion is made to feel shamed, guilty, frightened, and possibly have her life at risk, it is fine if there are hundreds of thousands of abortions each year.

There are SO many useful things that "pro-life" (as well as pro-choice) people can do to discourage abortion and help create a society where they are rare. They can:

- open up their homes to a pregnant teenager who has no where else to go

- donate money to organizations that help women with unwanted pregnancies with housing and finances, rather than lobbying for illegal abortion

- call your local school district and see if they have any sort of day care program in place for student parents, and look into getting one started if they do not

- provide a loving adoptive home for a child

- push for comprehensive sex education in schools, and educate people about pregnancy and STD prevention

- put pressure on insurance companies to cover contraception, and work to make sure that all Americans have health insurance

- the next time you see a pregnant teenager, show them love and respect by asking them how are doing and seeing if you can do anything for them, rather than giving them dirty looks, nasty comments, and lectures

- encourage societal changes toward women, so that a young woman's value is not tied to her sexual purity and no woman chooses an abortion because otherwise she will be shunned by her family and community

The problem is that anything real that can be done to reduce the abortion rate requires either 1) real work or 2) real change. People either have to give up some of their time/money/possession or give up some of their old attitudes, and often they have to do both. It's much easier to just vote for candidates who say they are going to outlaw abortion.

But people who think that they are somehow favoring life by voting for candidates who promise to make abortion illegal are deceived. Being in favor of illegal as opposed to legal abortion is NOT the same as being pro-life.

 

[Gracchus]

Its not at all hypocritical. People under the death penalty have done something to earn that status.

Except those who haven't. (Oops!)

What has a baby in the womb done thats deserving of death?

Deserving or not, we all die. It is purely a matter of time and circumstance. It has nothing to do with merit.

A baby whose mother does not cherish its life is better off dead, especially in a world that spends more on guns and cosmetics than on feeding children, and more on prisons than on schools.

Historically, Christians have scorned the unwed mother and her "illegitimate" offspring, often going out of their way to make their lives miserable. If Christians were the paragons they pretend to be, there would be no war or poverty or bigotry, nor abortion except to protect the health of the mother.

 

[ballfan]

Again, the issue is not "pro lifers" versus "those strongly in favor of abortion"; the issue is "those who strongly favor illegal abortion" versus "those who strongly favor legal abortion,"

With divides like this its no wonder nothing can get accomplished. What you wrote is simply wrong. Pro lifers favor no abortions at all.

Pro "choicers" will favor abortion even if in a back alley because they consider it to be a womans "right".

But as a Christian I find it abominable to destroy these works of God. I assume you're Christian. It is beyond understanding how you can support abortion of the innocents.

There are things that can be done as you suggest. If they were to be accomplished would you then be against abortion? If so contact your Democratic representives and senators. They stand squarely in the way of progress on this issue. It will take both Republicans and Democrats to fix this.