Do you want to see Intelligent Design taught in universities and schools?

[Inkfingers]

*Sigh* If Darwinism is true, then we would see tons of transitional fossils everywhere. But they are nowhere to be found. We do not see any half giraffe and half something else type bones. There is no slow progression of these fossils (Which should be discovered by us by now if Darwinism was true).

Samotherium - Wikipedia

Why are you not discussing the words of Jesus with me?

Because you are presuming them to be literal and will not be convinced otherwise.

 

[DennisTate]

Please explain, "GOD EVOLVED BUT ADAM AND EVE WERE CREATED."

God has worked and worked and worked and worked from infinite time in the past......
The Cyclic Model of the Universe postulates an infinite number of Big Bang type events over infinite time in the past.......

This last one was the best one of all...... and made possible the creation of Adam and Eve.... Who knows how many Big Bang events may have been done by G-d because there was one of them in which the Morning Stars sang for joy......... A third of the angels later on rebelled......
So

Job 38


Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?

 

[Yahkov]

I believe both Intelligent Design and Young Earth Creationism should be taught in schools. Provide the premise for both sides and let the student decide what they believe is true. I went to a Bible College and this is exactly what they have done.

If we are just talking about public schools, or schools not affiliated with some sort of religion, I'd much rather the Gospel be taught than any view of creation.

 

[Yahkov]

God has worked and worked and worked and worked from infinite time in the past......
The Cyclic Model of the Universe postulates an infinite number of Big Bang type events over infinite time in the past.......

This last one was the best one of all...... and made possible the creation of Adam and Eve.... Who knows how many Big Bang events may have been done by G-d because there was one of them in which the Morning Stars sang for joy......... A third of the angels later on rebelled......
So

Job 38


Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?

God made possible the creation of Adam and Eve. Not whatever amounts of Big Bangs there were. Sounds like to me you are presenting God created everything by chance. Whereas whether you believe in intelligent design or young earth creationism, I assume we can all agree that when we read Genesis 1-2, we see clearly that God had a plan.

 

[bbbbbbb]

God made possible the creation of Adam and Eve. Not whatever amounts of Big Bangs there were. Sounds like to me you are presenting God created everything by chance. Whereas whether you believe in intelligent design or young earth creationism, I assume we can all agree that when we read Genesis 1-2, we see clearly that God had a plan.

I think what he is actually getting at is a revision to the Gap Theory of creation. For those unfamiliar with it, the idea is that there is a gap of an unknown amount of time between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 during which all sort sorts of things occurred, including Satan's rebellion and fall and, possibly, evolution and development of creation which, therefore, would align better with current dating of the universe.

In his theory, which has been generated within the science fiction community, God created the universe which then went through a complete cycle of expansion and contraction and eventually demise, after which God created another and another and another, ad infinitum. During these cycles of creation and reincarnation (which bear certain resemblances to Hindu theology) things such as Satan's rise and fall occurred.

As I see it, this is a clever way of incorporating various strands of thought including current scientific views, science fiction, and various other mythologies in addition to Christian theology. The weakness, of course, is that one must, perforce, read into the Genesis text an amazing amount of ideas which are not even remotely hinted at.

 

[renniks]

I certainly want ID taught in universities and schools but.........
it seems to me that we Christians need to apply this advice before it
can happen:

Matthew 5:25

"Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison."

What I believe Messiah Yeshua - Jesus means by this is...... agree with our opponents to the degree that our adversaries are perhaps correct...... or at least could be correct..... because there is so much information that each of us cannot possibly know enough about to be dogmatic on all subjects.

An Ancient of Days the Father, an Ancient of Days the Holy Spirit and Seven or fourteen Elohim led by the Word / Logos, who made Adam and Eve in their image....... may be first and foremost scientists, composed of fundamental or nearly fundamental energy.... according to String Theory........ who existed from eternity in the past.

If... in a sense God planned and choreographed an essentially infinite number of Big Bang or Big Flash events...... over eternity in the past.......... then perhaps before creating our ancestors Adam and Eve... maybe God got better and better and better at creation?

Before the creation of Adam and Eve it seem that Lucifer and one third of the angels had already fallen.

So..... our understanding of this statement could help to put a form of Intelligent Design back into schools........... "GOD EVOLVED BUT ADAM AND EVE WERE CREATED."

This is my attempt to agree with our Agnostic and Atheistic adversaries.... to at least some degree.

I'm scratching my head here... Why does intelligent design have to mean that God evolved?

 

[Davidz777]

See this is a revived 2017 thread. Did not read beyond the first page as is obviously from someone trying to reconcile a young earth perspective. A worthwhile pursuit on views that IMO need to change lest Christianity continue to hemorrhage believers. As an old science educated Christian person that seeks salvation with eternal life, I too am searching for truth.

ID proponents that insist on rigid Bible inerrancy and infallibilty are never going to change secular public opinions on the subject. Instead the never ending battle with equally dogged agnostic and atheist science persons that media tends to focus on, only tends to widen the gap. Notions like multi-universes, god is on another plain of existence, time travel, precognition, omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence, omnibenevolence, miracles like magic, and like fringe ideas likewise dig a deeper scifi hole. As someone that has possible alternate ideas, especially with Genesis, I'm fine with what the Bible relates and reinterpret it in new ways.

Moses with his primitive understanding of that day may have vaguely written parts of Genesis from a vision God gave him as best he could. God certainly wasn't going to give him a real explanation because it would all go over his head. Instead he let whatever Moses write alone, then probably had a good laugh along with his angels. Consider at that time they were not considering what a human science knowledgeable race might do with it thousands of years later but rather just the Israelites of that primitive age. If God and his angels are looking down on these conversations today, they may be now wondering how to fix the situation while remaining hidden, invisible. Some would argue, just let it be because eventually humans with the mind God gave them will figure it out as science continues to advance.

 

[DennisTate]

I'm scratching my head here... Why does intelligent design have to mean that God evolved?

That is not a dogmatic part of Theistic Evolutionary Theory..... that is one variation on Theistic Evolutionary Theory.... but a logical one......... Basically..... can G-d learn something new??????

This is relevant to the question of DID G-d know that Covering Cherub Lucifer Satan would probably rebel.... even before he was created?????????

 

[DennisTate]

See this is a revived 2017 thread. Did not read beyond the first page as is obviously from someone trying to reconcile a young earth perspective. A worthwhile pursuit on views that IMO need to change lest Christianity continue to hemorrhage believers. As an old science educated Christian person that seeks salvation with eternal life, I too am searching for truth.

ID proponents that insist on rigid Bible inerrancy and infallibilty are never going to change secular public opinions on the subject. Instead the never ending battle with equally dogged agnostic and atheist science persons that media tends to focus on, only tends to widen the gap. Notions like multi-universes, god is on another plain of existence, time travel, precognition, omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence, omnibenevolence, miracles like magic, and like fringe ideas likewise dig a deeper scifi hole. As someone that has possible alternate ideas, especially with Genesis, I'm fine with what the Bible relates and reinterpret it in new ways.

Moses with his primitive understanding of that day may have vaguely written parts of Genesis from a vision God gave him as best he could. God certainly wasn't going to give him a real explanation because it would all go over his head. Instead he let whatever Moses write alone, then probably had a good laugh along with his angels. Consider at that time they were not considering what a human science knowledgeable race might do with it thousands of years later but rather just the Israelites of that primitive age. If God and his angels are looking down on these conversations today, they may be now wondering how to fix the situation while remaining hidden, invisible. Some would argue, just let it be because eventually humans with the mind God gave them will figure it out as science continues to advance.

Truly well said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I will attempt to get into some more of your questions as time permits!

I am of the opinion that some truths could not be revealed until our time period...... and perhaps beyond that...... even in our time line?????!!!!!
Jhn 16:25

These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

 

[DennisTate]

I believe both Intelligent Design and Young Earth Creationism should be taught in schools. Provide the premise for both sides and let the student decide what they believe is true. I went to a Bible College and this is exactly what they have done.

If we are just talking about public schools, or schools not affiliated with some sort of religion, I'd much rather the Gospel be taught than any view of creation.

Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well said!!!!!!!!

 

[renniks]

That is not a dogmatic part of Theistic Evolutionary Theory..... that is one variation on Theistic Evolutionary Theory.... but a logical one......... Basically..... can G-d learn something new??????

This is relevant to the question of DID G-d know that Covering Cherub Lucifer Satan would probably rebel.... even before he was created?????????

Is learning something new necessarily evolving? God knows everything before it happens, because he is in no way bound by time, space, or our little imaginations of what he is. Actually even saying he knows before is incorrect because there is no before or after with him.

 

[DennisTate]

Is learning something new necessarily evolving? God knows everything before it happens, because he is in no way bound by time, space, or our little imaginations of what he is. Actually even saying he knows before is incorrect because there is no before or after with him.

OK..... can YHWH..... create a situation in which YHWH is at least somewhat surprised?????????

Gen 22:12

And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

 

[renniks]

OK..... can YHWH..... create a situation in which YHWH is at least somewhat surprised?????????

Gen 22:12

And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Are you open theist? In that case, I think God was just using easily understood language. I don't believe he didn't already know.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I'm scratching my head here... Why does intelligent design have to mean that God evolved?

The op has posted that in some things he used to believe what Scripture says as Yahuweh has revealed it once for all and to us who continue to believe Scripture,
then he read some ungodly experiences (fake spiritual zones or something like that),
that I guess tickled his ears or emotions and convinced him to believe some things (or many things?) that are contrary to all Scripture. i.e. Scripture is no longer his final authority/ the standard for which to live and think and judge by.

 

[DennisTate]

The op has posted that in some things he used to believe what Scripture says as Yahuweh has revealed it once for all and to us who continue to believe Scripture,
then he read some ungodly experiences (fake spiritual zones or something like that),
that I guess tickled his ears or emotions and convinced him to believe some things (or many things?) that are contrary to all Scripture. i.e. Scripture is no longer his final authority/ the standard for which to live and think and judge by.

Actually what I wrote is that I used to believe in the Soul Sleep theory that I now regard as almost certainly being false. Near death experience accounts caused me to rethink
2 Corinthians 12
and many other scriptures that I once though of as metaphors or mere parables.

 

[DennisTate]

Are you open theist? In that case, I think God was just using easily understood language. I don't believe he didn't already know.

I am not even sure what the phrase "open theist" means?

 

[renniks]

I am not even sure what the phrase "open theist" means?

Open Theism is the thesis that, because God loves us and desires that we freely choose to reciprocate His love, He has made His knowledge of, and plans for, the future conditional upon our actions. Though omniscient, God does not know what we will freely do in the future.
Basically, it limits God's knowledge of the future to knowing all possibilities, but not what will actually happen.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Actually what I wrote is that I used to believe in the Soul Sleep theory that I now regard as almost certainly being false. Near death experience accounts caused me to rethink
2 Corinthians 12
and many other scriptures that I once though of as metaphors or mere parables.

Taking the nde as true is bad enough. Letting it move thinking away from God's Word, opposed to God's Word, is still worse. The Standard did not change - no, you moved away from it, you changed away from the truth.

 

[DennisTate]

Taking the nde as true is bad enough. Letting it move thinking away from God's Word, opposed to God's Word, is still worse. The Standard did not change - no, you moved away from it, you changed away from the truth.

Actually.... what I've done is allowed these testimonies to assist me to look at many, many scriptures in a new light that I am certain is vastly more accurate than the Soul Sleep theory that I once believed.

 

[RDKirk]

Moses with his primitive understanding of that day may have vaguely written parts of Genesis from a vision God gave him as best he could. God certainly wasn't going to give him a real explanation because it would all go over his head.

This is what I've believed since the mid-60s, and I've seen and heard nothing to change my mind. I developed the concept of ID for myself even though I'd never heard the term before.

Part of that influence was, ironically, the nature movies Disney had put out a few years earlier showing nature through the then-revolutionary time lapse photography. Using time-lapse cinematography, movies such as "The Vanishing Prairie" appeared to show plants appear instantly and magically from a dead landscape.

It occurred to me that if the natural theories of the creation of the universe were seen in a series of enormously time-lapsed dreams (four billion years compressed into six nightly dreams) from the point of view of the normal human eyes (no telescopic vision, no microscopic vision, no ability to see into deep oceans) of a Bronze Age man, the story would look very much like what Genesis presents.