Do you want to see Intelligent Design taught in universities and schools?

DennisTate · Aug 25, 2017

I certainly want ID taught in universities and schools but.........
it seems to me that we Christians need to apply this advice before it
can happen:

Matthew 5:25

"Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison."

What I believe Messiah Yeshua - Jesus means by this is...... agree with our opponents to the degree that our adversaries are perhaps correct...... or at least could be correct..... because there is so much information that each of us cannot possibly know enough about to be dogmatic on all subjects.

An Ancient of Days the Father, an Ancient of Days the Holy Spirit and Seven or fourteen Elohim led by the Word / Logos, who made Adam and Eve in their image....... may be first and foremost scientists, composed of fundamental or nearly fundamental energy.... according to String Theory........ who existed from eternity in the past.

If... in a sense God planned and choreographed an essentially infinite number of Big Bang or Big Flash events...... over eternity in the past.......... then perhaps before creating our ancestors Adam and Eve... maybe God got better and better and better at creation?

Before the creation of Adam and Eve it seem that Lucifer and one third of the angels had already fallen.

So..... our understanding of this statement could help to put a form of Intelligent Design back into schools........... "GOD EVOLVED BUT ADAM AND EVE WERE CREATED."

This is my attempt to agree with our Agnostic and Atheistic adversaries.... to at least some degree.

DennisTate · Aug 25, 2017

The following poll allows people to change their vote if they wish........ I am kind of hoping that after this idea floats around for a few years the results of this poll could be different than it is now, or it is going to be a challenge to come up with a version of Intelligent Design that appeals to the highly educated.

Where did Intelligence begin, in matter or fundamental energy?

DennisTate · Aug 25, 2017

This thread discusses an important idea that can assist us to understand Gap Theory and Old Earth Creationism a little better.

After all..... just as trees have rings there are rings of ice on Antarctica and Greenland that indicate that there have been over 600,000 years of rain falling on them.

NDE of Dr. Richard Eby verifies old earth and gap theory.

Dr. Richard Eby:
......
"Jesus, tell me about this wondrous music all about me. Who is the composer? How is it made? From whence does it come? It is gorgeous!"

I was not disappointed when he began his answer by again asking me:
"Didn't you read my book? Repeatedly it exhorts my children to praise me with music from strings, trumpets, timbrels and voices. It is and was the prime communication of worship and praise and thanksgiving. Since I am the Creator, I am the composer of heaven's music which you are hearing."

Music became the resulting harmony from all of our creations, both of matter and energy. All resonated in unison with us. The elementary form was of and from and in ourselves. I might explain it as a triad of sub-electronic energy particles with and around which We constructed everything in our universe. The wave-forms we called light; whereas the material-forms we called dust of the Earth and water and air. Out of these, and into these, we created animals and birds and fishes and vegetable life to support them. Over these we created a mankind to supervise them as our appointed custodians made in our special image to act for us on Earth!"

Jesus hesitated as I tried to capture the immensity of his explanations.

"You must understand, my son, that original creation mirrored the composition and perfection of Person-God. All creation vibrated in unison with us! There was total accord and harmony everywhere as the whole creation was resonating with and in God!

"Each separate thing or being thus carried out an appointed task in our scheme for the universe. A heaven-form of music resulted as even the stars sang in their appointed circuits. Here in paradise you are hearing these melodious vibrations directly upon your new mind, undistorted. On Earth you heard distorted sounds through the air waves. Throughout heaven the music flows from my throne, uninterrupted, undefiled, and peace-giving."

Jesus paused again.
"My book tells of the time when Lucifer's rebellion in heaven changed some things. He sought to usurp my Father's throne, assume his position as the most high God, and to rule the universe. For that blasphemy Lucifer was cast from heaven to Earth; in fact, I saw him fall as a bolt of lightning! In a tantrum of hate and rage over being deposed so fast he and his fallen angels disfigured our perfect Earth. It became void and uninhabitable. For punishment befitting his enemy of God, Lucifer was given a new name, Satan, since he was the self-appointed "adversary' of the Almighty. Anything that God had made, Satan would attempt to destroy from then on. As Lucifer he had been created the highest angel about the throne, one of his assignments and talents being the chief musician in charge of worship and music. In his rebellious anger he set about destroying harmony on and in the Earth from then on. That is why the Earth where he operates now is out of harmony with God's other creations. In my book we call this disharmony "sin', because it defies God's will that even the heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament show his handiwork.

"But be of good cheer, my son. The Father has permitted me to overcome Satan's world system of sin, and to destroy the works of Satan, and to re-establish righteousness in the hearts of my friends. Eventually in his chosen time he will restore all creation as it once was, in him!" (Dr. Richard Eby, near-death.com)

We humans are now facing the possibility of inventing robots that are far advanced in their ability to process data..... than we can. Could the Covering Cherub Lucifer be compared with an Artificial Intelligence that we could soon invent that might go rogue and begin to kill humans?

Dave-W · Aug 25, 2017

? ? ? ? ?

What does the poll question have to do with the thread title?
God does not go to University or school ....

DennisTate · Aug 25, 2017

A rather new idea in Theoretical Physics can now help us to look at Ezekiel chapter 37 in an entirely new light.

Multiverse Theory and multiple Ezekiel 37 type events.

If..... we can see evidence that God replicates moments in what may appear to be the past.... .and then spins off new time lines........ then...... we can see evidence that God seems to be taking steps toward saving more and more and more of the lost........
which allows for a new way of looking at all that Messiah Yeshua - Jesus said about hell!

Dave-W said:
? ? ? ? ?

What does the poll question have to do with the thread title?
God does not go to University or school ....

True... .but is God first and foremost a Scientist and Inventor who just happens to live for eternity in the past..... and eternity in the future?

Has God ever conducted an experiment to do something that God had never done before?

Was the fall of Lucifer and one third of the angels a surprise to God?????

DennisTate · Aug 25, 2017

Chapter 13 of Stephen Hawking's Universe is entitled The Anthropic Principle.

When I read Dr. Hawking's explanation for the Cyclic Model of the Universe I wondered if he could actually be a closet Theist or Agnostic..... or perhaps Polytheist as Dr. Albert Einstein was.........who only claims to be an Atheist due to the pressure that is on high level intellectuals to NOT be Christians.

Mellen-Thomas Benedict's Near-Death Experience

I was in pre creation, before the Big Bang. I had crossed over the beginning of time / the First Word/the First vibration. I was in the Eye of Creation. I felt as if I was touching the Face of God. It was not a religious feeling. Simply I was at one with Absolute Life and Consciousness. When I say that I could see or perceive forever, I mean that I could experience all of creation generating itself. It was without beginning and without end. That’s a mind-expanding thought, isn’t it? Scientists perceive the Big Bang as a single event that created the Universe. I saw during my life after death experience that the Big Bang is only one of an infinite number of Big Bangs creating Universes endlessly and simultaneously. The only images that even come close in human terms would be those created by super computers using fractal geometry equations.

The explanation for the Cyclic Model of the Universe that near death experiencer Mellen Benedict gives here could set the stage for a whole new angle on Intelligent Design that could bring the scientific and educational community largely out of the grips of Atheism.

Friend-of-Jesus · Aug 25, 2017

Schools and Universities have no business teaching Intelligent Design or Creation or Big Bang or whatever as the one and only truth or fact. It's like teaching that there's life on a planet in another Galaxy. We simply don't know. Schools can present all kinds of hypothesis for what they are - merely our fantasies, not facts.

Friend-of-Jesus · Aug 25, 2017

DennisTate said:
Chapter 13 of Stephen Hawking's Universe is entitled The Anthropic Principle.

When I read Dr. Hawking's explanation for the Cyclic Model of the Universe I wondered if he could actually be a closet Theist or Agnostic..... or perhaps Polytheist as Dr. Albert Einstein was.........who only claims to be an Atheist due to the pressure that is on high level intellectuals to NOT be Christians.

Mellen-Thomas Benedict's Near-Death Experience

The explanation for the Cyclic Model of the Universe that near death experiencer Mellen Benedict gives here could set the stage for a whole new angle on Intelligent Design that could bring the scientific and educational community largely out of the grips of Atheism.

NDE again? You seem to be placing too much faith in dubious stories.

Dave-W · Aug 25, 2017

DennisTate said:
A rather new idea in Theoretical Physics can now help us to look at Ezekiel chapter 37 in an entirely new light.

WHY are you trying to analyze the Bible's miracles by science?

Science only works when systems are NOT under intelligent control. When you have a personality controlling the game, you cannot accurately predict the outcome. (free choice) It is why we cannot be 100% effective against terror organizations like al Qeada or ISIS.

To an even greater degree, it cannot analyze God and His actions. He lives OUTSIDE of time. He can (and does) suspend the laws of physics and even logic when it suits Him. How can you frame that for scientific study?

DennisTate said:
Has God ever conducted an experiment to do something that God had never done before?

Was the fall of Lucifer and one third of the angels a surprise to God?????

Both of those questions make the assumption that God is subject to time. "Eternity" is outside time. We know nothing about it. God can see both the beginning and the end, seemingly simultaneously. One can only do that if one is outside of the system. https://www.christianforums.com/thr...ties-and-schools.8024268/reply?quote=71690551

DennisTate · Aug 25, 2017

I believe that Dr. Chaim Henry Tejman has paved the way for a whole new type of Evolutionary Theory that fits nicely with Intelligent Design.

I have nominated Dr. Chaim Tejman for the one million dollar origin of life prize.

DennisTate · Aug 25, 2017

Friend-of-Jesus said:
Schools and Universities have no business teaching Intelligent Design or Creation or Big Bang or whatever as the one and only truth or fact. It's like teaching that there's life on a planet in another Galaxy. We simply don't know. Schools can present all kinds of hypothesis for what they are - merely our fantasies, not facts.

Exactly.... .and Dr. Chaim Tejman has put forward some ideas on where life and intelligence / Intelligence probably originated that can set the stage for evolutionists........ to begin to look at the whole subject differently by looking at the possibility of life originating NOT on earth........
but nearly infinite time before earth would exist, (be invented).

Grand Unified Theory: Wave Theory and Life

"The essential matter from which our universe is created is energetic matter. It behaves like living matter, creating every known entity, including living objects and even thought (which occurs through energetic matter–wave interaction). The essential structure of energetic matter is high-energy (concentrated energetic matter) electro-magnetic waves (picture above). This simple structure is the basis of everything: every energetic formation and the universe. In picture 2, we see that the DNA (double helix) of all living formations has the same structure as waves: two loops of the same energetic matter, behaving according to the same rules." (Dr. Chaim Tejman)

DennisTate · Aug 25, 2017

Dave-W said:
WHY are you trying to analyze the Bible's miracles by science?

Science only works when systems are NOT under intelligent control. When you have a personality controlling the game, you cannot accurately predict the outcome. (free choice) It is why we cannot be 100% effective against terror organizations like al Qeada or ISIS.

To an even greater degree, it cannot analyze God and His actions. He lives OUTSIDE of time. He can (and does) suspend the laws of physics and even logic when it suits Him. How can you frame that for scientific study?

Both of those questions make the assumption that God is subject to time. "Eternity" is outside time. We know nothing about it. God can see both the beginning and the end, seemingly simultaneously. One can only do that if one is outside of the system.

I am trying to show that the process of creation can fit with science so that we take one step closer to the day when a book like this..... .is what is used to
teach the teachers of our children and grandchildren.

https://www.amazon.com/Biocosm-Scie...rchitect/dp/1930722222?tag=christianforums-20

Biocosm: The New Scientific Theory of Evolution: Intelligent Life Is the Architect of the Universe

Biocosm challenges both sides of the controversy over evolution and creationism. This carefully reasoned book proposes that life and intelligence have not emerged as a series of random accidents, as Darwinists like Stephen Jay Gould have maintained, but are hardwired into the cycle of cosmic creation, evolution, death, and rebirth. Gardner's theory of an exponential coevolution of biological and electronic intelligence, designed and directed, offers an extraordinary vision of a universe of point and purpose. Stunning color photos are included.

DennisTate · Aug 25, 2017

Friend-of-Jesus said:
NDE again? You seem to be placing too much faith in dubious stories.

Perhaps..... or could it be that a huge percentage of those "dubious stories" are in fact Messian Yeshua - Jesus keeping several of his promises:

John 16:25

"These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father."

And if..... the Life Review reported by a significant percentage of near death experiencers is in fact a major fulfillment of:

Hebrews 9:27

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"

And also:

Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible, Baruch Chapter 6

[6] For my angel is with you: And I myself will demand an account of your souls."

Another Lazarus · Aug 25, 2017

Actually we dont know how many years have passed since the first animal was created before Adam.

DennisTate · Aug 25, 2017

Another Lazarus said:
Actually we dont know how many years have passed since the first animal was created before Adam.

I totally agree with this.......
I could be wrong but I suspect that the gradual fall of Lucifer and one third of the angels
could have taken place somewhat along the same time line when certain dinosaurs became predatory.......

I suspect that by allowing Lucifer and the third of the angels who had fallen to see the progression to a more and more and more violent earth.......
God had probably been hoping to inspire repentance in Lucifer and the fallen angels?!

This could have taken place over millions, or tens of millions or even over hundreds of millions of years?!

The seven day restoration of the earth in Genesis chapter 1 could have taken place after........
the fall of Lucifer.. which would explain the lousy attitude of the serpent
who slandered God to Eve.

RDKirk · Aug 25, 2017

I've been inclined toward intelligent design since the early 60s. I didn't even know it was a "thing" back then--I thought it was my own idea.

But I don't think it should taught as a "thing" in secular schools. What should be taught in a secular science class is what can be observed.

RDKirk · Aug 25, 2017

DennisTate said:
I totally agree with this.......
I could be wrong but I suspect that the gradual fall of Lucifer and one third of the angels
could have taken place somewhat along the same time line when certain dinosaurs became predatory.......

I suspect that by allowing Lucifer and the third of the angels who had fallen to see the progression to a more and more and more violent earth.......
God had probably been hoping to inspire repentance in Lucifer and the fallen angels?!

This could have taken place over millions, or tens of millions or even over hundreds of millions of years?!

The seven day restoration of the earth in Genesis chapter 1 could have taken place after........
the fall of Lucifer.. which would explain the lousy attitude of the serpent
who slandered God to Eve.

Revelation tells me that the fall of Lucifer and his angels took place in the Church Age. Job and 1st Kings and 2nd Chronicles still give Satan a place in heaven.

Dave-W · Aug 25, 2017

DennisTate said:
I am trying to show that the process of creation can fit with science so that we take one step closer to the day when a book like this..... .is what is used to
teach the teachers of our children and grandchildren.

And you are removing faith in the process. "Without faith it is impossible to please HIM..."

Dave-W · Aug 25, 2017

RDKirk said:
Revelation tells me that the fall of Lucifer and his angels took place in the Church Age. Job and 1st Kings and 2nd Chronicles still give Satan a place in heaven.

You are trying to tie together Earth's chronology with that of heaven. Remember Revelation also talks about the "lamb slain before the foundation of the world" while we know that according to OUR time, the crucifiction took place in the 30-35 ad time frame.

Revelation 13:8 kjv
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

BTW - the devil STILL has a place in heaven. (on occasion) Just as he had to personally petition our Lord to "sift [Peter] like wheat," he has to petition Him to harass us as well.

RDKirk · Aug 25, 2017

Dave-W said:
You are trying to tie together Earth's chronology with that of heaven. Remember Revelation also talks about the "lamb slain before the foundation of the world" while we know that according to OUR time, the crucifiction took place in the 30-35 ad time frame.

Revelation 13:8 kjv
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

BTW - the devil STILL has a place in heaven. (on occasion) Just as he had to personally petition our Lord to "sift [Peter] like wheat," he has to petition Him to harass us as well.

No, because Revelation 12 ties itself to events on earth...which is why I said what I said.

Do you want to see Intelligent Design taught in universities and schools?

Can God learn or in a sense "evolve?"

Absolutely not..... this is blasphemy!

Yes....

No.....

God always knew everything about everything....and has no need to learn.

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