Do you want to go to heaven???????????????

[Isambard]

Hell is no laughing matter

It is when you consider the absurdity of the very notion.

 

[Rhamiel]

It is when you consider the absurdity of the very notion.

mankind was made to be with God
to never be with God would be horrible suffering

... I do not see why it is absurd

 

[MacFall]

mankind was made to be with God
to never be with God would be horrible suffering

... I do not see why it is absurd

Given the presupposition that the very existence of God is "absurd", it makes internal sense. Of course, some people have the grace and humility not to reduce a disagreement over metaphysical presuppositions to "absurd". But those would be people who actually recognize that they HAVE metaphysical presuppositions in the first place.

 

[timur123456789]

Our main focus should not be to go to Heaven. In fact it is very dangerous for us to have it as our goal, because it is selfish.

Our main goal should be loving God and neighbor and as result we MAY get into Heaven. Heaven is not the reward having is the state of Love toward the God and our neighbor.

In fact the Lord Himself teaches that the Kindom of God is within us:

21 nor shall they say, Lo, here; or lo, there; for lo, the reign of God is within you.'
(YLT Lk.17:21)

If the kingdom of God is within us then we are in heaven if not then we are not in heaven. The only way to get a hint of where you standing is to explore you desires, inclinations and motives of your actions.

 

[Isambard]

Given the presupposition that the very existence of God is "absurd", it makes internal sense. Of course, some people have the grace and humility not to reduce a disagreement over metaphysical presuppositions to "absurd". But those would be people who actually recognize that they HAVE metaphysical presuppositions in the first place.

I've no problem with the notion that a god may exist, lack of evidence aside. The absurdity comes in the form of infinite torture for not 'loving' said god enough. Outside of theological discussions, that sort of coerced 'love' has a different name.

 

[MehGuy]

you have a wrong idea of hell, first of all the devils will be suffering in hell as well, because they will be also tortured with heat, and you don't have to go to hell, hell wasa not made for humans but for the devil and his angels, you wont last in the lake of fire though, which is where hell is going to be cast into, it is a solid hot lake like fire, with complete darkness

Oh, that's good to know. I think I'll sleep a little easier tonight knowing that.

 

[MacFall]

Since eternity exists outside of time and living humans have never experienced anything but a temporal existence, human language is ill-equipped to deal with the concept of eternity or how it would be experienced. The Bible uses symbolism to deal with such concepts. Trying to take those symbols literally would tend to lead to absurdity. So, yes - the idea of hell as an actual place with physical torture is rather absurd, considering that the very concept of eternity excludes the concepts of "place" or physical anything entirely.

The idea of hell, traditionally, is that God is the source of life and goodness, and if one willingly cuts one's self off from that source, the only possible result could be death and anguish. God doesn't send anyone to hell for not loving him; people choose to go there because they hate God. If that's the case then hell must be extremely lonely, boring, and full of regret. Or it could be that everyone does get to go to Heaven, but those who choose to hate it will be miserable there. Or it could be, as many prominent theologians have thought and defended from scripture, that since God is the source of existence, hell is actually an eternal incinerator where souls that have chosen to be cut off from God go to be destroyed.

 

[Rhamiel]

I've no problem with the notion that a god may exist, lack of evidence aside. The absurdity comes in the form of infinite torture for not 'loving' said god enough. Outside of theological discussions, that sort of coerced 'love' has a different name.

it is simple
we are made to be with God
we can either be with Him forever
or we can not be with Him

the "torture" of hell is being alone, never achieving what our purpose was, being cut off from the source of love
and it is horrible

 

[Isambard]

Trying to take those symbols literally would tend to lead to absurdity. So, yes - the idea of hell as an actual place with physical torture is rather absurd, considering that the very concept of eternity excludes the concepts of "place" or physical anything entirely.

I never said anything about physical torture. I said infinite torture which is something the grand majority of Abrahamic theologians assert.

God doesn't send anyone to hell for not loving him; people choose to go there because they hate God.

He created the system and stacked the odds. Besides, it isn't enough to merely believe in God, blind worship is required as evidence in various instances in both the OT and the NT. I reiterate, God demands love and promises pain for not doing so.

Or it could be, as many prominent theologians have thought and defended from scripture, that since God is the source of existence, hell is actually an eternal incinerator where souls that have chosen to be cut off from God go to be destroyed.

Choice cannot be made without full information (see blind faith requirement), but this is another topic.

it is simple
we are made to be with God
we can either be with Him forever
or we can not be with Him

the "torture" of hell is being alone, never achieving what our purpose was, being cut off from the source of love
and it is horrible

Again, "LOVE ME OR YOU'LL FEEL PAIN!".

 

[MacFall]

He created the system and stacked the odds. Besides, it isn't enough to merely believe in God, blind worship is required as evidence in various instances in both the OT and the NT. I reiterate, God demands love and promises pain for not doing so.

LOL. You don't believe in God, yet you claim to know Him better than a Christian? This is the absolute pinnacle of arrogance - to try and tell another person what they must believe about something you refuse to understand. And it is almost ubiquitous among atheists.

Choice cannot be made without full information

Right. The idea that people will be judged according to their knowledge is by far the majority theory, but that fact is just so inconvenient to someone whose arguments rely on ignorant hate. Which appears to be deliberately cultivated.

 

[Isambard]

<snipped inane grumbling>

I see a reply, yet no rebuttal.

Right. The idea that people will be judged according to their knowledge is by far the majority theory

Except its not. Else there wouldn't be such a push for evangelism or "accepting Jesus in one's heart".

You seem to be under the impression that your own beliefs = all (or at least the vast majority) of Christiandom. What's that about being arrogant?

 

[greatnews]

Paradise Lost was an epic poem written about the fall of the bad angels
John Milton wrote it in 1667

oh okay then

 

[MacFall]

You seem to be under the impression that your own beliefs = all (or at least the vast majority) of Christiandom.

They are the majority. In fact I did not change my own views from the one you are talking about until I realized just how fringe and unsupported by scripture, orthodox tradition, and theology it was. In the Western Evangelical tradition, they teach that theirs is the orthodox view. But nothing could be further from the truth. Only Fundamentalist and RP traditions have an exclusionist or fideist soteriology. That's literally less than a third of Christians today, and less than 10% of Christians throughout history. If you're going to talk about majorities, you need to have actual numbers on your side. I do.

It is only common in English-speaking countries because of the influence of the neo-Puritan and Holiness movements in the US and UK in the past century, and English speaking Christians are not even close to a majority. And even within English speaking countries, it is NOT held by Orthodox, Catholic, or mainline churches (even the Methodists, among whom the Holiness movment occurred, only held an exclusionist soteriological view for a brief period in the early 20th century).

You don't hear about the views of the vast majority of Christians on hell because to most Christians, it's not the most important part of our faith. It is far more important to most Christians that we actually follow what Christ said. Acceptance is a necessary part of faith, but what acceptance actually means depends on what one hears and understands. And all that remains beyond that is following Christ's commandments. And those commandments are entirely about how you treat other people. You have focused on a fringe position that takes a paranoid view of judgment and eternity, and used it as a convienient target. It is the same as if I were to argue that forced eugenics is a mainstream belief among atheists because those atheists are the only ones sensational enough to make it through the filter of Christian pop media.

 

[Rhamiel]

the vast majority of Christians
Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglicans
Methodist and Lutherans are probably pretty high up there too

so yeah, the vast majority of Christians understand that people are judged by what they know and how they responded to the grace that God has presented to them in their lives

this does not diminish the push to evangelize
as we all believe that people are sinners and that they need Jesus in their lives

 

[Going Merry]

where ever you guys go, let me go the other way

 

[greatnews]

where ever you guys go, let me go the other way

so where exactly are you wanting to go?

 

[bocannes]

where ever you guys go, let me go the other way

Wherever you go, I pray it is someplace good.

 

[bocannes]

Again, "LOVE ME OR YOU'LL FEEL PAIN!".

Interesting. That sounds a lot like what C. S. Lewis struggled with (God = mean bully). It was a big factor in his many years of atheism.

I think, on the contrary, that the Bible shows that God only requires one thing: faith. He says, "please, accept me because I love you" rather than "you must love me or feel pain". I believe your statement badly misconstrues the nature of God.

 

[greatnews]

Wherever you go, I pray it is someplace good.

well since there is only two places you can go, she must want us to go to hell then , or her herself go

 

[greatnews]

the vast majority of Christians
Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglicans
Methodist and Lutherans are probably pretty high up there too

so yeah, the vast majority of Christians understand that people are judged by what they know and how they responded to the grace that God has presented to them in their lives

this does not diminish the push to evangelize
as we all believe that people are sinners and that they need Jesus in their lives

pretty high I would say, what were they smoking ? lol