Do you understand the Nicene Creed?

[seebs]

I understand your concern, however, Christ gave us His Church, His Body, the Pillar and Foundation of all Truth, who He said He would be with always, and the gates of hades shall not overcome it.

So I hear. So... What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? Today, people are still finding their way to a relationship with God, and still learning about the Gospel, and many of them are doing so outside of the orthodox faith. Given that strict accuracy is not a requirement for salvation, why, then, should I assume that strict accuracy exists? The orthodox faith could be wrong on any number of bits of doctrine, and as long as they are still leading people to salvation, the gates of hell are losing.

Leaving aside the fact that the Orthodox Church does not ask someone if they are 'saved', indeed salavation is not a discrete event in Orthodox Christianity... It goes against the very Creed that we are discussing to give to man that which is God's authority alone.

Good point, and that is one of the issues on which I think your church is clearly correct, actually.

However, it does cause problems when we have a large group of people representing hundreds, if not thousands, of different denominations of "Christians", and we draw a line somewhere and say "well, you guys aren't good enough for this part of the forum". And we can say it's not about that all we want, but that is the message we send, and we are responsible, not only for our actions, but for the consequences we know they must have.

If the purpose is to keep out heretics, then we need to figure out exactly how to identify heresy, and I think that any serious effort to identify all people who hold or put forth heretical beliefs would leave the forums empty.

Keep in mind that, as our understanding grows, the number of things we can claim are wrong grows also. The people who settled the words for the Apostle's Creed might not all have agreed with the Nicene Creed; the people who settled the words for the Nicene Creed might not agree with much of the doctrine discussed today.

 

[Oblio]

So I hear. So... What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

It has to do with the statement you made that you were not convinced that the Church was correct in matters of doctrine.

Today, people are still finding their way to a relationship with God, and still learning about the Gospel, and many of them are doing so outside of the orthodox faith. Given that strict accuracy is not a requirement for salvation, why, then, should I assume that strict accuracy exists? The orthodox faith could be wrong on any number of bits of doctrine, and as long as they are still leading people to salvation, the gates of hell are losing.

Strict understanding of Theology is not a requirement. God does however desire us to worship Him in spirit and in truth. The Church guides us in this area and therefore to Christ and Salvation through her inspired Traditions, including Holy Scripture. God wishes that all should be saved, and the Church provides the most sure way to come to Christ. To follow a way that is not as sure would be folly and against God's will.

 

[seebs]

It has to do with the statement you made that you were not convinced that the Church was correct in matters of doctrine.

Right. I am still unconvinced, but I don't think that means the gates of Hades are prevailing.

If the church continues to exist and lead people to salvation, the gates of hades have lost, and continue to lose. This doesn't require that the church be correct in all things.

Strict understanding of Theology is not a requirement. God does however desire us to worship Him in spirit and in truth. The Church guides us in this area and therefore to Christ and Salvation through her inspired Traditions, including Holy Scripture. God wishes that all should be saved, and the Church provides the most sure way to come to Christ. To follow a way that is not as sure would be folly and against God's will.

This is the part I don't follow. I am not convinced that this is the "most sure" way. In any event, it is certainly not where He calls me.

 

[Oblio]

However, it does cause problems when we have a large group of people representing hundreds, if not thousands, of different denominations of "Christians", and we draw a line somewhere and say "well, you guys aren't good enough for this part of the forum". And we can say it's not about that all we want, but that is the message we send, and we are responsible, not only for our actions, but for the consequences we know they must have.

If the purpose is to keep out heretics, then we need to figure out exactly how to identify heresy, and I think that any serious effort to identify all people who hold or put forth heretical beliefs would leave the forums empty.

I've actually gone both ways with this issue. Frinstance , how can an atheist, or mormon, or muslim, or JW ask an honest question in the Orthodox section of this board ? A Baptist can, why can't one who is really in need of answers and conversion ask them ? This concerned me prior to ever visiting this board* but it is the rules. (*The CO policy was told to me by a hyper-fundagelical anti-Apostolic member that visited another board I am a member of and ironically brought several of the EO members here)


OTOH (always that other hand), you set yourself open to heretical trolls and those that will, as a tool of the evil one, come to spread lies and confusion just as they do in real life. They never would have made it past the doors of the Early Church, and a case could be made that they shouldn't here.

 

[Oblio]

If the church continues to exist and lead people to salvation, the gates of hades have lost, and continue to lose. This doesn't require that the church be correct in all things.

No, it means that the Church has always and will always exist. The Church therefore must trace back to the Apostolic era. And it must not change because God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, and the Church is His Body. And the Church must believe the same everywhere because no part of the Body exists apart from the others. In short, the Church believes what has been believed Everywhere, Always, and by All. There is only one Church that fulfills these things.

 

[Crazy Liz]

exactly 100 words , the list of the tenants of our faith

Our faith is a landlord?

 

[Oblio]

LOL

 

[seebs]

No, it means that the Church has always and will always exist. The Church therefore must trace back to the Apostolic era. And it must not change because God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, and the Church is His Body. And the Church must believe the same everywhere because no part of the Body exists apart from the others. In short, the Church believes what has been believed Everywhere, Always, and by All. There is only one Church that fulfills these things.

This is what I don't agree with. All Christian churches trace back to the Apostolic era. Do they change? I certainly hope so; in the Apostolic era, Christians kept slaves, because they didn't know any better. We continue to learn about God.

God may not change, but it seems pretty clear to me that there was a big change in our relationship with God around the year 30. The people who said "God doesn't change" tended to make what we now believe to be the wrong decision.

In the end, I am glad there are people keeping tradition, but I am not convinced that the result is always correct.

 

[Jeffery]

Who wrote the creed?









_______________________________________
The will of God will never lead you where the grace of God cannot keep you.

 

[seebs]

I've actually gone both ways with this issue. Frinstance , how can an atheist, or mormon, or muslim, or JW ask an honest question in the Orthodox section of this board ? A Baptist can, why can't one who is really in need of answers and conversion ask them ? This concerned me prior to ever visiting this board* but it is the rules. (*The CO policy was told to me by a hyper-fundagelical anti-Apostolic member that visited another board I am a member of and ironically brought several of the EO members here)

That is a very difficult question. There are several problems; on a discussion board, people can both ask questions and answer them. There are many people who have questions to ask, whose answers I am unlikely to accept. On the other hand, I feel about the same way about Calvinism that a lot of people do about the Mormons, but I recognize that the Calvinists, however much I personally disagree with their interpretation, are nonetheless clearly trying to understand and praise God, and as such, I'm glad to share this space with them.

But then, I have no objections to Mormons being part of my fellowship; I may believe them to be gravely in error, but they probably believe the same of me; discussions with them have been fruitful for me.

OTOH (always that other hand), you set yourself open to heretical trolls and those that will, as a tool of the evil one, come to spread lies and confusion just as they do in real life. They never would have made it past the doors of the Early Church, and a case could be made that they shouldn't here.

I am concerned about this. However, the more I think about it, the more I am bothered by any attempt to figure out which errors are, or aren't, "serious enough" to keep people out. I could see a lot of benefit in forums for "only people who self-identify as Christians"; it would eliminate the harassment from people who have no interest at all in participating, and leave us with a good environment in which to try to correct misunderstandings.

On the third hand, I am not entirely convinced that "Christians-only" forums are necessary at all; it seems to me that, in practice, the only problems we would really face without those would be people being disruptive of our threads, and honestly, disruptive activity violates other board rules anyway. I would love to have the input of an occasional Orthodox Jew on questions of Biblical interpretation, and I have seen some truly incredible Biblical analysis done by people who don't believe, but who are nonetheless able to take the Bible seriously.

It worries me sometimes how hard it is to find "safe" beliefs that no one will call a heresy.

 

[Lotar]

I don't understand why Jews are allowed to post in the IDD, yet Muslims and Mormons are forbidden. I think if we are going to restrict forums to Christians, we should atleast be consistent.

 

[seebs]

I don't understand why Jews are allowed to post in the IDD, yet Muslims and Mormons are forbidden. I think if we are going to restrict forums to Christians, we should atleast be consistent.

It's because more people agree that Jews and Christians worship the same God. (Just "more", not "all")

 

[Michali]

I don't understand why Jews are allowed to post in the IDD, yet Muslims and Mormons are forbidden. I think if we are going to restrict forums to Christians, we should atleast be consistent.

Well, why don't you report it?

 

[seebs]

Reporting works when something violates the rules, but it doesn't change the rules.