Do you understand the Nicene Creed?

[seebs]

I'm just curious.

How many of us feel confident that we could correctly articulate every point made by the Nicene Creed without stepping into at least one of the heresies it was designed to rule out?

I'm not especially confident of this. I know I've seen lots of people make these various mistakes.

So, how confident are we, here in the forums for people who feel they can affirm the Nicene Creed, that we actually understand it the way the writers meant it?

 

[pmarquette]

exactly 100 words , the list of the tenants of our faith

 

[Oblio]

Could you affirm that you believe in the doctrines and truths contained in the Bible ? Could you explain the contents without falling into heresy ?
Do you actually understand it the way God intended it ?

 

[pmarquette]

You could take the major points , and discuss each tenant ...
1. God creator
2. Jesus , begotten
3. born of virgin
4. suffered
5. accused , tried , sentenced
6. died & rose
7. glorified & empowered
8. judge of the living & dead
10 . belief in church who recorded truth
11. for God is the source of revelation

 

[Oblio]

IOW - The Gospel in brief

 

[Jeffery]

Is the Nicene Creed in the Bible?

 

[Oblio]

Is the Nicene Creed in the Bible?

The Nicean Constantinopolitan Creed as found in Holy Scripture

A Profession of Orthodox Christian Beliefs
Researched and Compiled by David M. Mastroberte



[c]I believe in (Romans 10: 8-10; 1 John 4: 15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6: 4, Ephesians 4: 6)
Father (Matthew 6: 9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6: 3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1: 1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1: 15-16)
And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11: 17)
Son of God, (Mathew 14: 33; 16: 16)
Only-Begotten, (John 1: 18; 3: 16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1: 2)
Light from Light; (Psalm 27: 1; John 8: 12; Matthew 17: 2,5)
True God from True God; (John 17: 1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1: 18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10: 30)
through whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1: 1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1 Timothy 2: 4-5)
came down from heaven, (John 6: 33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary (Luke 1: 35)
and became man. (John 1: 14)
And He was crucified for us (Mark 15: 25; 1 Corinthians 15: 3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19: 6)
suffered, (Mark 8: 31)
and was buried. (Luke 23: 53; 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
And on the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures, (Luke 24: 1 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
and ascended into heaven, (Luke 24: 51; Acts 1: 10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father; (Mark 16: 19; Acts 7: 55)
and He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24: 27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10: 42; 2 Timothy 4: 1)
Whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1: 11)
And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14: 26)
Lord, (Acts 5: 3-4)
Giver of Life, (Genesis 1: 2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15: 26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3: 16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19: 20; Ezekiel 11: 5,13)
In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2: 5,9)
catholic, (Mark 16: 15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2: 42; Ephesians 2: 19-22)
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. (Ephesians 4: 5)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11: 24; 1 Corinthians 15: 12-49; Hebrews 6: 2; Revelation 20: 5)
and the life in the age to come. (Mark 10: 29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106: 48)
[/c]

 

[Suzannah]

Yes, I understand it as they meant it. It is all verifiable through Scripture and having a sound understanding of Scripture, I do understand it. I also happen to agree with it. All of it.

 

[seebs]

Could you affirm that you believe in the doctrines and truths contained in the Bible ? Could you explain the contents without falling into heresy ?
Do you actually understand it the way God intended it ?

I would be quite surprised if I could get it all right without a lot of careful study. Luckily for me, salvation is not a test of doctrinal accuracy.

In fact, I take it as an article of faith that every living person has at least one false belief about faith or morals. The alternative is arrogance and overconfidence. I'd rather be open to learning the truth than pretend I have it.

 

[seebs]

I believe in (Romans 10: 8-10; 1 John 4: 15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6: 4, Ephesians 4: 6)

While I appreciate the intent here, these citations are for sets of words too small to be meaningful. 1 John 4:15 says:

"Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God."

That does not mean the same thing as "I believe in".

The citations really don't explain the source of the material, and honestly, it makes no sense at all to have a citation on the words "I believe in"; they aren't the contents of the creed, they're the words that say you're affirming these beliefs, as opposed to merely saying "some other guy believes this".

Worse, this whole thing comes across as prooftexting. If we were to take any of the other proposed lines that were debated at the Concil of Nicea, we could find things in the Bible which appeared to support them, too. That wouldn't make them true.

Is the doctrine supportable? I believe it probably is. However, this is not that support; this is a showy bit of footwork which doesn't come close to passing muster for the task it's been called on to perform.

 

[McCravey]

The Nicence Creed is a cold lifeless thing that in and of itself brings no one to salvation and lends itself only to the seperation of one group of God's children from another.---It's kind of like the color of skin--something you have to learn to look through to who is underneath.

 

[Oblio]

The Nicence Creed is a cold lifeless thing that in and of itself brings no one to salvation and lends itself only to the seperation of one group of God's children from another.---It's kind of like the color of skin--something you have to learn to look through to who is underneath.

Care to explain what is cold and lifeless about the Creed ?

No one said that it brings salvation, only Christ does that.
I also disagree that it brings separation, rather it brings Christians together in a set of common doctrinal truths and sets apart those that wish to divide the Church with heresy and confusion. Anytime you stray from those timeless truths that are set forth in the Creed you are diverging from the path towards Christ.

 

[seebs]

Care to explain what is cold and lifeless about the Creed?

It is words, and only words. That sounds lifeless to me. There is only one Word which lives.

No one said that it brings salvation, only Christ does that.
I also disagree that it brings separation, rather it brings Christians together in a set of common doctrinal truths and sets apart those that wish to divide the Church with heresy and confusion. Anytime you stray from those timeless truths that are set forth in the Creed you are diverging from the path towards Christ.

Any time you stray from those truths, you may be mistaken. However, this does not seem to be a barrier to salvation.

What is a barrier to salvation? The idea that only people who get all their i's dotted and t's crossed in their theology can be saved; this is a stumbling block placed in front of all the people who find words hard to understand, and know only that they love God, but theirs is the kingdom of heaven, for they love in innocence.

Better to love God than to claim to understand theology, if those are the choices before you. Many people come to Christ without understanding the creed, or the doctrines therein.

Orthodoxy for orthodoxy's sake is no part of salvation.

 

[Oblio]

What is a barrier to salvation? The idea that only people who get all their i's dotted and t's crossed in their theology can be saved; this is a stumbling block placed in front of all the people who find words hard to understand, and know only that they love God, but theirs is the kingdom of heaven, for they love in innocence.

Who is promoting this strawman ?

The reason for the Creed is to safeguard those truths that were given to the Church by God. It is to affim that those who say Jesus Christ was a Spirit, or that he was the brother of Satan, or his father was a Roman soldier or he became God at His Baptism are heretics that knowingly or unknowingly seek to destroy the Church that He gave us.

Orthodoxy for orthodoxy's sake is no part of salvation

Orthodox means Right Glory (Worship), the purpose (by definition) of Orthodoxy is the Worship of the All Holy Trinity. Orthodoxy is never practiced for the sake of anything other than that.

 

[seebs]

Who is promoting this strawman?

Well, consider; if only people who accept the creed are Christians, and only Christians can be saved, then you must get all the theology right to be saved.

The reason for the Creed is to safeguard those truths that were given to the Church by God. It is to affim that those who say Jesus Christ was a Spirit, or that he was the brother of Satan, or his father was a Roman soldier or he became God at His Baptism are heretics that knowingly or unknowingly seek to destroy the Church that He gave us.

Sure. But what about people who simply can't understand what it means to say that Jesus was "fully human" and "fully divine"? Are they heretics too? Apparently. The examples you've used are pretty far from the things that people are actually confused about.

Orthodox means Right Glory (Worship), the purpose (by definition) of Orthodoxy is the Worship of the All Holy Trinity. Orthodoxy is never practiced for the sake of anything other than that.

While that would be nice, I don't think it's true. In practice, the same human tendency to draw lines and exclude comes into play here that comes into everything else, and it becomes an excuse to restrict membership in an exclusive club of "real" Christians, while people who don't understand all these weird words, but love Jesus, are left out in the cold, wondering what they did wrong.

 

[Oblio]

Well, consider; if only people who accept the creed are Christians, and only Christians can be saved, then you must get all the theology right to be saved.

This is your hypothesis. The Orthodox viewpoint is that we know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not. Nor do we state that our knowledge determines ones Salvation, God alone determines that. The Church can however determine what is orthodox and what is heretical.

 

[seebs]

This is your hypothesis. The Orthodox viewpoint is that we know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not. Nor do we state that our knowledge determines ones Salvation, God alone determines that. The Church can however determine what is orthodox and what is heretical.

Okay, fair enough. That set of answers is consistent. The problem comes when one person says "well, that's heresy", and another person says "and if it's heresy, it means you're not saved".

The concern I continue to have is simply that I have never become convinced that any earthly church is correct in all of these matters. So, some people who are considered heretics according to one faith or another may actually be teaching the truth.

This is an especially serious problem for an interdenominational site, where most people believe at least some things that other members would consider heresy.

 

[McCravey]

Just remember that we as christians (or just plain humans) have a tendency to be religious and self righteous about things.

The people who had the most trouble when they met Jesus were the religious of their day. They had the Word. They had the Temple. They had the sacrifices. They had the circumcision. They had the Ark. They had Moses' law. They seemed to have it all -- but they missed out on a great blessing. The blessing of a Son.

They were not wrong! If anything they were right in what they believed! It's not about right and wrong. They just did not know God well enough to recognized Him when they met Him. Being right and having a creed cannot replace the knowing that only a son can have for his father. I believe everything that we say in the creed. I just don't believe it's neccessary.

Those that are deceived are deceived with or without the creed. When you don't know the son you can believe the creed and be in the biggest deception of all. Knowing the creed will not 'un-deceive' you.

 

[Justme]

Hi Forum,

Here's a definition of othodoxy I thought everybody would like...

Orthodoxy (orthodoxeia) signifies right belief or purity of faith. Right belief is not merely subjective, as resting on personal knowledge and convictions, but is in accordance with the teaching and direction of an absolute extrinsic authority. This authority is the Church founded by Christ, and guided by the Holy Ghost. He, therefore, is orthodox, whose faith coincides with the teachings of the Catholic Church. As divine revelation forms the deposit of faith entrusted to the Church for man's salvation, it also, with the truths clearly deduced from it, forms the object and content of orthodoxy.

...............from the catholic encyclopedia.

Webster would tell us that the prefix means right, holding the correct interpretation or doctrine......orthodox.

However, on this website the statement is:

A forum to discuss theological doctrines not accepted by mainstream evangelical Christianity........................................

That forum is labeled Unorthodox Theological Doctrines..

Therefore that what is not the evangelical doctrine is unorthodox.

Isn't that how it works?

Justme

 

[Oblio]

The people who had the most trouble when they met Jesus were the religious of their day. They had the Word. They had the Temple. They had the sacrifices. They had the circumcision. They had the Ark. They had Moses' law. They seemed to have it all -- but they missed out on a great blessing. The blessing of a Son.

They were not wrong! If anything they were right in what they believed! It's not about right and wrong. They just did not know God well enough to recognized Him when they met Him. Being right and having a creed cannot replace the knowing that only a son can have for his father. I believe everything that we say in the creed. I just don't believe it's neccessary

They were also missing the Paraclete that He sent from the Father to His Church on Pentecost.

The concern I continue to have is simply that I have never become convinced that any earthly church is correct in all of these matters.

I understand your concern, however, Christ gave us His Church, His Body, the Pillar and Foundation of all Truth, who He said He would be with always, and the gates of hades shall not overcome it.

The problem comes when one person says "well, that's heresy", and another person says "and if it's heresy, it means you're not saved".

Leaving aside the fact that the Orthodox Church does not ask someone if they are 'saved', indeed salavation is not a discrete event in Orthodox Christianity... It goes against the very Creed that we are discussing to give to man that which is God's authority alone

and He shall come again in Glory to judge the living and the dead ...