Do you understand how small we are?

[badtim]

His Glory.

wow, so your god is an egotistical one huh?

 

[TheReasoner]

wow, so your god is an egotistical one huh?

He's a jealous one. Loves us and doesn't want us to love another in His stead. Which I think is understandable... But I don't know if He made it solely to His self-glorification. It's certainly a testament to His glory, but I think His motivation is something I dare not speculate upon. He's GOD, I'm but a mere mortal.

I don't think He can be contained in mere words.

 

[Phileas]

I love these kinds of things; like the Youtube videos which compares our sun with other observed stars. I don't quite see how this view leads to nihilism though. We are insignificant in size on a universal scale. However an electron is insignificant in size on our scale, yet they have a great effect on pretty much all matter. It's not just size that counts in meaning.

 

[badtim]

He's a jealous one. Loves us and doesn't want us to love another in His stead. Which I think is understandable... But I don't know if He made it solely to His self-glorification. It's certainly a testament to His glory, but I think His motivation is something I dare not speculate upon. He's GOD, I'm but a mere mortal.

I don't think He can be contained in mere words.

which is why i always shake my head at people spouting that sort of nonsense. an ultimate, perfect, omni-whatever being would have zero need to be praised or worshipped, and would not be lonely (it's perfect, remember?).

that kind of thing is like saying that you have an insecure, angry infant for a deity, and really was discarded by serious theologians centuries ago. To paraphase Sagan, why would you want to put an ultimate being in a tiny, constricted, human-derived box?

 

[badtim]

I love these kinds of things; like the Youtube videos which compares our sun with other observed stars. I don't quite see how this view leads to nihilism though. We are insignificant in size on a universal scale. However an electron is insignificant in size on our scale, yet they have a great effect on pretty much all matter. It's not just size that counts in meaning.

i don't believe it should lead to nihilism (well, nihilism in the terms that most people understand, not actual philosophical nihilism, which isn't the same thing). in my case, it leads to sheer wonder.

 

[TheReasoner]

which is why i always shake my head at people spouting that sort of nonsense. an ultimate, perfect, omni-whatever being would have zero need to be praised or worshipped, and would not be lonely (it's perfect, remember?).

that kind of thing is like saying that you have an insecure, angry infant for a deity, and really was discarded by serious theologians centuries ago. To paraphase Sagan, why would you want to put an ultimate being in a tiny, constricted, human-derived box?

I understand that. I can't answer you very well either, I think.

But, I am not like the run-of-the-mill christians I have met on this science board, i.e. dad, the av's and such. Not exalting myself, but my worldview is different.

The way I see it my faith is not so much about some god throwing a tantrum as a relationship with someone who loves me. Yeah, I know it sounds bonkers. And that's alright actually, because there's more to it than that.
My relationship with Christ is about much more than loving Him and running off to church. It's an ideological lifestyle based upon one single premise which is not to be confused with the hormonal equivalent. Love.

Yeah, I know I fall short, that I can be an angry man sometimes who displays little love, particularly when someone drops a particularly inane bomb and claims said statement is absolute. That is to say, if you want to tick me off proclaim something asinine and claim it to be absolutely true.

Anyway... Faith. Love. I think an example or three would be good to illustrate what I am talking about. Take for example Anniken Mori, a missionary who's caught close by the leaking reactors in Japan. She has opted to stay and help people in need rather than leave for safety. Take Desmond Tutu who fought and fights for cooperation, peace and equality by peaceful and loving measures. Even towards his oppressors. Or take those Christians who decided to stay in plague ridden cities in the 1300s and help the sick rather than panic and flee like so many. Take the people who housed Jewish, homosexuals, and others from the Nazi persecution during WW2. Take my own sister who's working with drug users, homeless and prostitutes, helping them see better days in a rough and tough life, not with condemnation but with care and equality.
That's what I am talking about, and that's why I believe. Why I am a "Christian".
I really think this is something the world needs more of, not less. And I think this is true Christianity as portrayed by Christ and His immediate followers, the apostles.

Yeah, I'm also a [budding] scientist. How do I reconcile the two? Well, first off I don't think there's a discrepancy but rather that there can be a synergistic effect. The realms are widely different though, one - my 'religious' beliefs do not concern themselves with my math skills or my knowledge of physics and chemistry, but with my goal in life: To benefit mankind. To help others.
My role as a scientist deals with objectively analyzing the reality I see around me, and applying what I find to achieve my goal of helping mankind. But that's the extent to which my religious beliefs penetrate into my professional/educational role.

If you want to shake your head at my religious beliefs, feel free. But I would hope you do respect your colleague in spirit enough to see what I believe before you do so. And this has been a rough outline. Do notice how creationism or legalistic ritualism has no inkling of a part.

 

[sandwiches]

That's a valid emotional, poetic sentiment; it's just not logical.

I agree with you. Significance is subjective. Given that I can only experience the universe from my own eyes, I am the most prominent and significant being I can think of.

 

[badtim]

oh don't get me wrong faith, as far as i've seen you're the type of religious person i can get along with, no problem

just for full disclosure, i have zero problem with people believing in deities -- i think it's silly, but as long as it's harmless, i'm fine with it. i have a huge problem with zealots and unthinking fanatics -- but not because of what they believe, but because of what those beliefs result in.

*EDIT* for example, my fiancee is a practicing eastern orthodox, and she's the most wonderful person i've ever met. absolutely zero religious friction.

 

[TheReasoner]

oh don't get me wrong faith, as far as i've seen you're the type of religious person i can get along with, no problem

just for full disclosure, i have zero problem with people believing in deities -- i think it's silly, but as long as it's harmless, i'm fine with it. i have a huge problem with zealots and unthinking fanatics -- but not because of what they believe, but because of what those beliefs result in.

Hey, that makes two of us badtim. I have a huge problem with them too.
Fanaticism is, the way I see it, one of the largest and most dangerous problems mankind has and is facing as a species. Few other internal issues can kill us off, if any. But fanaticism has a real shot at it. Consider someone like Clirus (read some of her posts at the politics subforum) as president of the US. Nuclear war would ensue immediately upon his or her election because he/she honestly believes he/she is divinely chosen to eliminate evil from the face of the earth by way of violence.

Scares the life out of me, because there's no way I think such people are prevented by any law of nature from gaining said power. In fact, it has happened before. Many times, at that. It would be foolish indeed to think it will not happen again.

 

[badtim]

agreed. what i have pretty much come to is that when ideas, any ideas, become more real and more important than actual people, that's where you're headed down a true path of destruction.

there's a certain sort of stupid that causes this, that i doubt we will ever be rid of. don't know if you read science fiction, but there's a segment in Cryptonomicon by Neal Stephenson where he talks about the concepts of Ares vs. Athena that is quite material to this idea. here's a good excerpt:

Enoch Root on Athena, from Neal Stephenson's Cryptonomicon

 

[sandwiches]

His Glory.

You don't think that self-glorification is selfish and petty?

 

[USincognito]

How many stars can we see with our naked eye? With no city lights of course.

In perfectly dark conditions you can see amazing things, not just more stars and galaxies that otherwise are invisible, but things like Zodiacal light and regions of the Milky Way casting shadows.
Bortle Dark-Sky Scale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Of course it depends on what time of year you're talking about and where you are on the surface of the Earth. At the Equator you can see both northern and southern constellations and in the nothern hemispheres summer we look into the Milky Way whereas in the winter we look out.

 

[USincognito]

Here's an interesting Wiki entry on Parsec with some of the numbers spelled out.
Parsec - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Haha yeah! Take THAT, universe!

After finally reverse engineering the spaceship and launching it beyond the dust cloud the Krikkiteers finally lay their eyes on the vast and awesome glory of the Universe. Their response? "It'll have to go."

 

[Jazer]

You don't think that self-glorification is selfish and petty?

God does not glorify Himself. It is up to us to Glorify Him and give thanks and praise. That is what we are here for. Although we have the freedom to choose unGodly passion and desire if we want. Everyone gets to make that choice. Choose life or death, blessing or curse, sickness or health.

 

[DontTreadOnMike]

God does not glorify Himself. It is up to us to Glorify Him and give thanks and praise. That is what we are here for. Although we have the freedom to choose unGodly passion and desire if we want. Everyone gets to make that choice. Choose life or death, blessing or curse, sickness or health.

I don't glorify myself, I made all of these little people so that they can glorify me. And if they don't, they'll just have to be killed. No, not killed; TORTURED for eternity for the sin of not glorifying me.

 

[DontTreadOnMike]

Here's an interesting Wiki entry on Parsec with some of the numbers spelled out.
Parsec - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sweet. Bookmarked for after work.

 

[TheReasoner]

I don't glorify myself, I made all of these little people so that they can glorify me. And if they don't, they'll just have to be killed. No, not killed; TORTURED for eternity for the sin of not glorifying me.

Not sure about my own stance on hell's existence for human beings, but I have though of it this way:

If a road sign warns you of a cliff edge, whose fault is it if you disregard it and drive off the cliff?
The road makers since they allowed such features?
The geology, for having cliffs?
Gravity for pulling you to your death?

Or your own, for disregarding a warning concerning a real danger. One which is dangerous because of basic laws of nature.

I don't know, it could be a warning akin to 'don't jump off a skyscraper'. Not because the warner wishes to be lauded or because he wants to punish those who do not heed the warning, but because nature's nature.
So the way I see it this warning could be more effective in the guise of a religion which emphasizes the good aspects man needs in order to avoid such consequences. You know, love, compassion, mercy, forgiveness, patience, peace... And yes, I know many "Christians" are more into defending their property rights or their nation's supremacy or even their own infallibility in a most narcissistic fashion. But to be honest I don't consider that even remotely close to the example Jesus set down.

Just another angle to throw into those considerations concerning this particular topic.

 

[TerranceL]

Always preferred this video myself.

YouTube - Star Size Comparison HD

 

[TerranceL]

If a road sign warns you of a cliff edge, whose fault is it if you disregard it and drive off the cliff?
The road makers since they allowed such features?
The geology, for having cliffs?
Gravity for pulling you to your death?

Wrong analogy, If the road sign was invisible and the only way to see it you had to believe in fantastical things then you'd have a point.

 

[TheReasoner]

Wrong analogy, If the road sign was invisible and the only way to see it you had to believe in fantastical things then you'd have a point.

*shrug* possibly. I didn't say I have a good case. I don't think I do. Even so, we could add dense fog beyond the sign to the analogy. We could also point out that gravity is something - as is everything else around us - something which we have experience with. Something we rely on every day. Death and the spiritual aspects of life can be very confusing. If real at all. I'm not really sure it is any more. These creationists present an extremely good argument against it by mere association. Of course, their arguments are considered nonsensical by most theologians as well. But even so... I certainly can't make my distance from their anti-intellectualism strong enough.

You know Terrance, I freely admit I have no good arguments pro hell. Like I said, I'm not sure what my stance on it is. I find it an illogical assumption. Only, it could itself be an analogy for the absence of God's presence post mortem. Basically a warning to the faithful 'stick around or you'll have lost me as a spouse* forever'. Which to the authors of the bible would seem like the worst possible fate a human being could get, yep. Like torture itself.

*as per some relevant analogies in the bible.