When did I say anything about evolution? Except when I said something that implies I believe it to be a flawed theory, proped up by manipuated evidence?
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Do you trust GOd's word?
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When did I say anything about evolution? Except when I said something that implies I believe it to be a flawed theory, proped up by manipuated evidence?
Follower of Christ
Literal 6 Day Creationist<br />''An Evening and a
I may be getting things confused.Today at 07:04 PM CopticOrthodox said this in Post #41
When did I say anything about evolution? Except when I said something that implies I believe it to be a flawed theory, proped up by manipuated evidence?
Do you believe in evolution or 6 literal day creation.
Maybe I need to get some more sleep before responding...
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"Do you believe in evolution or 6 literal day creation."
No, I do not.
I cannot accept the theory of evolution, in any of its variations. The Christian faith teaches us that we came from two parents, Adam and Eve. There's no way that both this, and evolution can be true. If the literal two parents are wrong, the entire idea of original sin falls apart, and Christ becomes unable to save us through the Incarnation. The theory of evolution contradicts one of the core truths taught in Genesis, that the human race comes from two common parents. It is at it's core an athiestic system, seeking to replace God. Today many Christians seek to make it "fit" with God since the scientific community misleads them into thinking that it is a fact and not a theory.
It is possible that God created the world in 6 literal days. That would not contradict the Bible, or be harmful to the faith, and there's no reason God couldn't have done it that way. But there is a great deal of scientific evidence against it, so while it's possible, and won't hurt my faith if it is true, I don't suspect that this theory is the correct one.
Scientists make charts of evolution to show the progression from one species to another. But now evolution has progressed towards "sudden jump" progression. That the change from one spiecies to another happens very quickly, as a sudden thing, since they cannot find "transition fosils" for a long transition period between two species. You'll also find that they've reorgainized some of the chronological sequences of the species so that it fits nicely into the tree that they wanted when they started. They use inaccuracies in the dating methods to justify this. But if you take out their rearanging, and just put them as the scientific evidence demands, the picture looks very different from evolution. Picture the tree breaking up into many paralel lines, starting in different ages and continuing until today or the point of extinction. There is no evidence that one species has ever evolved into another. It actually looks a lot more like the picture shown us in Genesis, that God created the different species in sequence, over a period of time. The only thing that doesn't look like Gn is the length of those time periods.
I cannot accept evolution because it would make my faith wrong, and I know that Christianity is right. I also have seen no convincing proof of the theory of evolution.
While it's possible that God created everything in 6 days scientific evidence seems to strongly discount that. Starting from the Bible and going to a scientific theory of creation, and calling all scientists who say otherwise sounds a lot like what the Catholic Church once did, and which the same fundamentalists who insist on a 6 day creation often condemn them for. Several verses in the Bible talk about the ends of the earth, or the corners of the earth, and a globe does not have ends or corners, it is continuous. So when science said that the earth is round, the Catholic Church said no, the Bible says it's flat, the earth must be flat, and for a very long time refused to accep the fact which science was telling them, that the earth is round. Formulating scientific theories as doctrines based on the Bible is very dangerous, because that isn't the purpose of the Bible, and it's reading into Bible answers to questions that were never meant to be asked of it. And so if the answers drawn out of it are wrong, since they are not inerrent as their on a subject different than what the Holy and inerrant text is talkign about, then people are disillusioned, and lose faith since they see the Church being wrong on one thing, why not others? That is why it's important for the Chruch to hold fast to the truth of the Christian faith and morality, but not to go out of it's realm into the region of science.
What I personally believe is that Creation happened as described in Genesis, by the hand of God, with species coming into existence as He willed it, but that the days do not represent 24 hr periods, rather they represent ages. This is not a lie, or an error in the text, it's merely a Father explaining a great mystery in a way that His young children can understand (and could understand in the time of Moses).
If it turns out that the scientific details of creation are different than what I suspect, that's ok, I don't know much about science, I could well be wrong. It won't hurt my faith if that's the case, becaues I know that whatever turns out to be the truth about how God created the world, it will not contridict the religious truths presented to us in Genses, such as the fact that we all come from one set of parents, and that God created everything and has power over everything, since I know these things to be true.
No, I do not.
I cannot accept the theory of evolution, in any of its variations. The Christian faith teaches us that we came from two parents, Adam and Eve. There's no way that both this, and evolution can be true. If the literal two parents are wrong, the entire idea of original sin falls apart, and Christ becomes unable to save us through the Incarnation. The theory of evolution contradicts one of the core truths taught in Genesis, that the human race comes from two common parents. It is at it's core an athiestic system, seeking to replace God. Today many Christians seek to make it "fit" with God since the scientific community misleads them into thinking that it is a fact and not a theory.
It is possible that God created the world in 6 literal days. That would not contradict the Bible, or be harmful to the faith, and there's no reason God couldn't have done it that way. But there is a great deal of scientific evidence against it, so while it's possible, and won't hurt my faith if it is true, I don't suspect that this theory is the correct one.
Scientists make charts of evolution to show the progression from one species to another. But now evolution has progressed towards "sudden jump" progression. That the change from one spiecies to another happens very quickly, as a sudden thing, since they cannot find "transition fosils" for a long transition period between two species. You'll also find that they've reorgainized some of the chronological sequences of the species so that it fits nicely into the tree that they wanted when they started. They use inaccuracies in the dating methods to justify this. But if you take out their rearanging, and just put them as the scientific evidence demands, the picture looks very different from evolution. Picture the tree breaking up into many paralel lines, starting in different ages and continuing until today or the point of extinction. There is no evidence that one species has ever evolved into another. It actually looks a lot more like the picture shown us in Genesis, that God created the different species in sequence, over a period of time. The only thing that doesn't look like Gn is the length of those time periods.
I cannot accept evolution because it would make my faith wrong, and I know that Christianity is right. I also have seen no convincing proof of the theory of evolution.
While it's possible that God created everything in 6 days scientific evidence seems to strongly discount that. Starting from the Bible and going to a scientific theory of creation, and calling all scientists who say otherwise sounds a lot like what the Catholic Church once did, and which the same fundamentalists who insist on a 6 day creation often condemn them for. Several verses in the Bible talk about the ends of the earth, or the corners of the earth, and a globe does not have ends or corners, it is continuous. So when science said that the earth is round, the Catholic Church said no, the Bible says it's flat, the earth must be flat, and for a very long time refused to accep the fact which science was telling them, that the earth is round. Formulating scientific theories as doctrines based on the Bible is very dangerous, because that isn't the purpose of the Bible, and it's reading into Bible answers to questions that were never meant to be asked of it. And so if the answers drawn out of it are wrong, since they are not inerrent as their on a subject different than what the Holy and inerrant text is talkign about, then people are disillusioned, and lose faith since they see the Church being wrong on one thing, why not others? That is why it's important for the Chruch to hold fast to the truth of the Christian faith and morality, but not to go out of it's realm into the region of science.
What I personally believe is that Creation happened as described in Genesis, by the hand of God, with species coming into existence as He willed it, but that the days do not represent 24 hr periods, rather they represent ages. This is not a lie, or an error in the text, it's merely a Father explaining a great mystery in a way that His young children can understand (and could understand in the time of Moses).
If it turns out that the scientific details of creation are different than what I suspect, that's ok, I don't know much about science, I could well be wrong. It won't hurt my faith if that's the case, becaues I know that whatever turns out to be the truth about how God created the world, it will not contridict the religious truths presented to us in Genses, such as the fact that we all come from one set of parents, and that God created everything and has power over everything, since I know these things to be true.
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Follower of Christ
Literal 6 Day Creationist<br />''An Evening and a
So basically you believe in an old earth with no evolution
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I suppose that would pretty much charactarize it, but more fundamentally that it's dangerous for the Church to move from proclaiming salvation history to scientific history.
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Follower of Christ
Literal 6 Day Creationist<br />''An Evening and a
Dangerous from whos stance?
I may be misunderstanding, but are you infering that we need to change to a humanistic understanding of creation in order to draw in converts?
If thats the case, I completely disagree.
Paul said he became all things to all men to win a few, but he in no wise diluted the gospel or changed the the facts of the OT in order to bring folks to Christ.
He probably just tried to fit in and learn about cultures in order to be able to understand in what manner he would need to present the gospel.
When presenting himself in Athens in Acts 17, Paul uses the peoples own idol "an unknown god'' as a beginning foundation.
I really wonder what Jesus or Paul would be saying to those attempting to change Genesis 1 to fit todays science.
You surely have presented a new view.
I havent seen anyone who believes in an old earth yet denies evolution.
I will never change my beliefs again having read about deception amoung scientists of evolution and old earth theory.
God will be the One I answer to, not man.
One thing that may be credited to your stance, is at least you dont take the humanity out of our race and belittle us into mere animals as evolutionists do.
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Sorry for being so unclear, let me try to explain what I mean by dangerous again. A couple hundred years ago, science discovered that the earth is round and not flat as was previously believed. But the Catholic Church refused to accept this, and persecuted the scientists who were saying this. Their reason for this was that the Bible talks about the ends of the earth, or the corners of the earth, and a globe does not have ends or corners, so this theory contradicted their literal interpretation of some verses of the Bible. Now science has progressed much furth, and no one can doubt that the earth is round. Catholics still fall away from Christianity over this, if the Church was wrong about this, why not other thing? It's also a point that non-Christians still use to critisize Christianity for, even so long after the mistake. So it was dangerous of them to step outside their authority and try to teach science, which is not the role of the Church.
Similarly today, fundamentalists are teaching science, again based an a passage from Scripture. Maybe the earth was created in 6 days, and everything will be fine. But maybe it wasn't, and in that case the same thing will happen all over again. Just like we now see that the ends of the earth is a figurative way of expressing something, we will see that this passage wasn't talking about science, but about attributes of God and creation. There will be an even large falling away, and more stones to throw at Christianity.
I don't think that St. Paul or Christ would try to fit the Bible to a "humanist" interpretation. But I also don't think they'd use it as a basis to formulate scientific theories. I think if we asked Moses what exactly he meant, or Christ if it is a literal 6 days, they'd tell us who cares, stop worrying about these details that have nothing to do with salvation, repent, follow God, worry about your relationship with Him.
Similarly today, fundamentalists are teaching science, again based an a passage from Scripture. Maybe the earth was created in 6 days, and everything will be fine. But maybe it wasn't, and in that case the same thing will happen all over again. Just like we now see that the ends of the earth is a figurative way of expressing something, we will see that this passage wasn't talking about science, but about attributes of God and creation. There will be an even large falling away, and more stones to throw at Christianity.
I don't think that St. Paul or Christ would try to fit the Bible to a "humanist" interpretation. But I also don't think they'd use it as a basis to formulate scientific theories. I think if we asked Moses what exactly he meant, or Christ if it is a literal 6 days, they'd tell us who cares, stop worrying about these details that have nothing to do with salvation, repent, follow God, worry about your relationship with Him.
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Follower of Christ
Literal 6 Day Creationist<br />''An Evening and a
FOC:
One of the reasons I do not present much in the way of scientific evidence (and I do have quite a bit, even from secular scientists who were turned on by their own for presenting evidence against evolution) is jsut for that reason.
I know how science changes theory from day to day. I feel it would be foolish to present some theory and then have it rejected the next day.
What My belief is, is that real christians just admit as I have that noone was there to prove it either way, so just sticking to having faith in what our God said as He WAS there.
For those non-christians, the point is moot to begin with, so if they want to continue to believe in evolution that doesnt affect our faith in the slightest.
As for a falling away, its already guaranteed to happen.
The most we can do is get a few to hold on to an adamant faith in their Creator regardless of the what the storms of science do to the world around them.
The issue here is this.
Where does it stop?
If I believe the lie of evolution, what next?
I will tell you whats next, the flood was local (God lied again)
Maybe Jesus wasnt actually the real son of God, maybe He was just a man with a vision.
Dont think it can happen, I have already been told about Jesus being an Essene by ''Christians''.
Why would the One who created it all, come down and be part of a group that didnt even teach the truth.
This same Christian telling me this was also an evolutionist among a few other things.
Evolution to a Christian is just like the leaven of the Pharisees. It will and has begun to work through the whole lump.
Where does this leave the new unsuspecting young christian who has not been told by his brethren that its okay to ignore the fallible sciences of men and just believe Gods word?
I was on Dennis Mckinseys sight (atheist guru) and some very good christians were debating with his panel of ''experts''
The one christian had actually started backing down as to who Christ was.
I know that he still believed, but he was starting to falter in his stance.
You know that it only took a few words to give him strength to stand for the truth again?
I am not in here to prove to secular evolutionists that they are wrong.
I am just trying to show my brethren that the evidence can fit into the biblical account and thats its okay to not have all the answers.
Its okay for them to just say "I believe In Gods truth and His words'' and not get involved with the lies of men.
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Maybe for Protestants following Sola Scriptura this is a problem, but we hold fast to the tradition of the Church, and our faith has remained unchanged almost 2000 years. Scientific ideas have changed, but our faith has not. We can accept that the days mean 1000's of years since the Bible says to God a thousand years is as a day, but to say that the flood was only local contradicts that we all come through Noah's sons, which we know must be the case or Christianity falls, just like to say that evolution happened contradicts that we all came from Adam and Eve, which we know to be the case. There's no slippery slope here, the lines are hard and fast.
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Follower of Christ
Literal 6 Day Creationist<br />''An Evening and a
Please dont take this as being argumentative, but that day is as a 1000 years in Peter is only refering to Gods patience and that fact that in eternity days are meaningless.Today at 11:51 AM CopticOrthodox said this in Post #49
Maybe for Protestants following Sola Scriptura this is a problem, but we hold fast to the tradition of the Church, and our faith has remained unchanged almost 2000 years. Scientific ideas have changed, but our faith has not. We can accept that the days mean 1000's of years since the Bible says to God a thousand years is as a day, but to say that the flood was only local contradicts that we all come through Noah's sons, which we know must be the case or Christianity falls, just like to say that evolution happened contradicts that we all came from Adam and Eve, which we know to be the case. There's no slippery slope here, the lines are hard and fast.
Which is shown by the verse canceling out its comment by showing the reverse as well.
Genesis 1:5 gives a good starting point as to what a day is.
YOM is further defined in the creation story.
How long was the earth here before the sun was created on the 4th day?
Some people like to play with their "god-in-a-box'', but it doesnt fit scripture.
He is the Creator and If He says 6 days, then I say find a way to believe it (which, by the way, is not hard to do presneted with REAL evidence)
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