Do you trust GOd's word?

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fragmentsofdreams

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We are not saying that the Bible is not accurate. We are saying that you are misunderstanding what it is trying to say and what it is not trying to say. I know that you disagree with this, but I would appreciate if you don't accuse of calling God a liar because we are not.

How does the Hebrew indicate that the first account is chronological and the second is man's perception?

Also, why does man perceive animals being created after him when the chronological account describes them being created before him?
 
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Micaiah

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Today at 01:18 PM Zoe Girl said this in Post #20 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=688934#post688934)

Some interesting thoughts to chew on:

Day 1: heavens and earth, dark and light
Day 2: sky
Day 3: land and seas, vegetation
Day 4: sun, moon and stars
Day 5: sea creatures, birds
Day 6: animals and man
Day 7: rest


John 1:1-2 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.  He was with God in the beginning."
2 Samuel 22:31 "As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the Lord is flawless."
Proverbs 30:5 "Every word of God is flawless..."
2 Corinthians 4:2 "Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God  On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God."
2 Timothy 3:13-16 "while evil men and imposters will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.  But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.  All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching , rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."
John 8:43-47 "Why is my language not clear to you?  Because you are unable to hear what I say.  You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire.  He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.  When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.  Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!  Can any of you prove me guilty of sin?  If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me?  He who belongs to God hears what God says.  The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."
 

For someone to believe in God, you have to believe in the word of God (John 1:1).  If a person has issues with the Word of God then, whether they admit it or not, they have issues with God Himself.  If you do not hear what God says, then you do not belong to God (John 8:47).  God cannot lie, His Word cannot be wrong.  It is common for Christians to believe that God created us through evolution.  However, as a Christian you should use the Bible to prove it, since it is the living Word of God.  God said that on Day 3 He created vegetation.  For God to have used evolution, (and to assume that each day was really thousands and thousands, if not millions of years long) that vegetation could not have survived without the sun, which wasn't created until Day 4.  And I'd hate to think that God rested for the entire 7th day if it lasted as long as some people think it did.

For Chrisitans who think it doesn't matter what we believe about evolution, I believe that it does matter because as Christians we need to realize that the father of lies is trying to get us to discredit the Bible as the infallible Word of God (John 8).  If Genesis isn't "completely" accurate, then maybe Matthew isn't either, or Romans, or Isaiah, or Job...  And if we can't trust any of these to be accurate, then how can we trust that Jesus is the Son of God, and for that matter, how can we trust that God is God?


If we say that the Bible isn't accurate, then we are saying that God is a liar.

*********

Seebs, the Bible does contain two different creation accounts, the first being the chronological one, the second being man's perception of it.  In Hebrew, there is no confusion.  It is a misunderstanding from the translation.

Another Christian with a Scriptural perpective on Creation. Thankyou, it is encouraging to see your faith.
 
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Ray Cho

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Yesterday at 09:37 PM Micaiah said this in Post #18

Care to name examples of those theologians and their commentary on the verses in question. The plain, or in this case literal interpretation of the length of days during creation and the age of earth inferred from genealogies is inconsistent with the time required by those who accept evolution.

Gleason Archer (translator for the New American Standard Bible), A Survery of Old Testament Introduction (Chicago, IL: Moody Press, 1994).  Also, R.C. Sproul, William Lane Craig, Norman Geisler. 

  
 
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Ray Cho

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Today at 12:18 AM Zoe Girl said this in Post #20

God said that on Day 3 He created vegetation.  For God to have used evolution, (and to assume that each day was really thousands and thousands, if not millions of years long) that vegetation could not have survived without the sun, which wasn't created until Day 4. 


What was the source of the light God created on Day 1?  Two possibilities (not the only two, but the ones that come to mind):

1. It really was the sun, which was obscured by vapor and didn't appear until Day 4.  Before you take me to task on this one, it wasn't my idea: none other than C.I. Scofield suggests this in his footnotes to the 1967 Scofield Reference Bible (KJV). 

"(Gen 1:3) Neither here nor in vs. 14-18 is an original creative act implied.  A different word is used.  The sense is made to appear, made visible. The sun and moon were created 'in the beginning.'  The light came from the sun, of course, but the vapor diffused the light.  Later the sun appeared in an unclouded day." 

Again, not me saying this -- C.I. Scofield. 

2. It was another source of light, which may very well have had the capacity to sustain plant life in the same manner as the sun.

There are several other plausible explanations for this puzzle, but these are the most straightforward.

   As far as the 7th day, the Bible says that God rested from the work of creation, not from His role of controlling the universe.  This does not conflict with the evidence for evolution, because as far as I know, nothing new has been created since man first appeared (Day 6).  This may even explain why we don't see evolution occurring today.



 
 
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Micaiah

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Today at 01:44 AM Francie said this in Post #27

Why do we confuse our selfs when all we need to do is rely on God's words !This is my opinon of creationism (GOd said it! That settles it! I beleive it!)God bless :angel:

I see evidence here of faith - faith in the word of God. May you always trust God. I've read a few stories of people who have claim they once had a Christian faith and then lost it. It makes for some sad reading.
 
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Micaiah

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5th March 2003 at 09:06 AM Ray Cho said this in Post #23



Gleason Archer (translator for the New American Standard Bible), A Survery of Old Testament Introduction (Chicago, IL: Moody Press, 1994).  Also, R.C. Sproul, William Lane Craig, Norman Geisler. 

  

Care to summarise some of his arguments on the issue?
 
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Ray Cho

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Yesterday at 08:14 PM Micaiah said this in Post #29



Care to summarise some of his arguments on the issue?


Micaiah,

I would like to do that for you, but I really don't believe I could do justice to his exigesis by simply summarizing his "arguments" in this forum.  Neither do I have the time to type out sixteen pages of text for your convenience.  If you are truly interested in what he has to say, you can buy the book or check it out from the library.  Read it for yourself and make your own judgement.

By the way, the author in question is NOT some liberal, Wellhausen-spouting academician.  Gleason Archer is about as distinguished and conservative a Bible scholar as there is alive today, and one of the  foremost modern defenders of Biblical inerrancy and historicity.  I recommend his work to all Christians and students of the scriptures.

 
 
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Yahweh Nissi

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I do indeed trust God's word.
I very much believe that "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteosness, so that the man of God is equipped for every good work."
However, literal historical accuracy is not claimed here.
Not accepting the literal 6-day creation and young earth view is not to say
that God lied, but that he gave the ancient Israelites scripture that told them the crucial truthes in terms they were used to and would understand when a genuinely literal account would have been confusing and pointless.
I find it much harder to understand why God would have created things from the creationist viewpoint and then done seemingly everything possible to make it look like he created it a completely different way.
A few examples:
Carbon dating, which can be tested on things that we have other evidence of the date of, and which then goes back well beond 6000 years ago.
Expansion of the Universe. The speeds at which all the galaxies are flying away from each other can be measured, and if corralated backwards thier movements all go back to a sigle point about 13 billion years ago.
The set of humanoid fossils which start off ape-like and become gradually more and more like modern humans as they get more recent.
The vast array of dinosaur fossils and bones which clearly indicate a huge variety of species covering much of the planet, yet are not recorded in any scripture or any historical writings at all. Indeed, if you take a literal flood account, Noah was commanded to bring "EVERY kind of animal" and "Noah did all that the Lord commanded him", so why are at least some dinosaurs not arround with us now? And how did animal life that had been totally wiped out get onto the American or Australasian continents?

And there are many others. This is NOT to say that God could not have created the world 6000 years ago and then made things look like this, but that it would seem an extreemly odd thing to do, and much more like a deliberate lie then giving a non-literal account teaching the crucial truths in a way that the recipients could understand.

However, I realise I could be wrong and do not think it is all that important compared to our shared faith in the Gospel of our Lord Jesus in which I rejoice!
 
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Yahweh Nissi:
"This is NOT to say that God could not have created the world 6000 years ago and then made things look like this, but that it would seem an extreemly odd thing to do, and much more like a deliberate lie"




"And because of this, God will send to them a working of error, for them to believe the lie, that all may be judged, those not believing the truth, but who have delighted in unrighteousness."
(2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 LITV)

It also mentions the falling away in the very same chapter.


Other examples of Gods use of ''deception'' towards unfaithful men, and turning them over to thier own ''sins'' in the past:

"And a spirit went out and stood before Jehovah, and said, I will entice him. And Jehovah said, With what? And he said, I will go out and become a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And He said, You shall entice, and also, you are able. Go out and do so. And now, behold, Jehovah has put a lying spirit in the mouth of these your prophets. And Jehovah has spoken evil against you. "
(2 Chronicles 18:20-22 LITV)

"Because of this, God gave them up to impurity in the lusts of their hearts, their bodies to be dishonored among themselves, who changed the truth of God into the lie, and worshiped and served the created thing more than the Creator, who is blessed forever"
(Romans 1:24-25 LITV)


Among others.


 
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CopticOrthodox

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"Q: How can the saying of the bible (sic) that God created the world in six days coincide with the opinion of the geologist that the age of the earth is thousands even millions of years?


A: The days of creation are not Solar days as our days now... The day of creation is a period of time, not known how long, could have been a second or thousands or millions of years. This period was determined by the saying "so the evening and the morning were..."

The proofs for this are many we mention a few of them:
1. The Solar day is the period of time between the sunrise and its rising again or between the sunset and its setting again. Since the Sun was not created till the fourth day [Genesis 1:16-19]...then the first four days were not solar days.
2. The seventh day, the bible did not say that it was over till now...
This bible (sic) did not say [so the evening and the morning were the seventh day], and thousands of years passed from Adam till now without the end of the seventh day. Accordingly, the days of creation are not Solar days but unknown periods of time.
3. As a whole, the bible said about all the creation and its six days: "This is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in {the day} that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens." [Genesis 2:4]

So the bible summed up in the word {day} all the six days of creation.
Then the geologist can say whatever about the age of the earth, the bible did not mention any age for the earth that contradicts what the geologists say.

The way the Lord looks to the measurment of time explained by the apostle's saying:- With the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" [2Pet 3:8]. "

--quote from H.H. Pope Shenouda III, Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria and all the Coptic Orthodox Church.

If you take the literal 6 day creation point of view, you miss so much beauty and truth in the Bible. The Bible says that light was before the sun, this is refering to the nebula that scientists tell us of from which the solar system came. Scientists try to make evidence match thier theory of evolution, but if you take out their tampering, the evidence actually supports creation in phases over long periods of time, which is what the Bible says if you take a day to be an age. Science agrees with the oder given to us in the Bible.

When St. Moses wrote this passage, I seriously doubt that he was sitting down to write a scientific expositioni of the method used by God for creation. His ways are beyond our understanding! Rather St. Moses wrote a beautiful poem, praising God for His sovernty and goodness, and explaining the beginning of the story of our fall and redemption.

This is not lying, this is not untruth, this is not error in the Bible. In our modern left-brained world we've forgotten about art, and truth through art, we have the silly notion that something is only true if it's scientific. But the ancients knew how to express truth through art, and that's what this is. We can learn so much from it if we look for the true, theological points that we are meant to find, or we can just read it as a dry historical account that doesn't really have any direct bearing on us.

God created everything. He created everything Good. He is all powerful. He created us in a different state then we're in now after the fall. These are the things we should be taking from this passage, not dry scientific facts that the author (the direct author, St. Moses, or the primary authory, God) didn't intend to convey through this wonderful passage.
 
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"A: The days of creation are not Solar days as our days now... The day of creation is a period of time, not known how long, could have been a second or thousands or millions of years. This period was determined by the saying "so the evening and the morning were..."


FOC:

"And God called the light, Day (yom). And He called the darkness, Night. And there was evening, and there was morning the first day (yom). "
(Genesis 1:5 LITV)

Seems simple enough to figure it out with Gods definition of a DAY (yom) laid out plainly there in ADDITION to carefully explaining each day that this process mentioned in Gen 1:5 is repeated once.





"The proofs for this are many we mention a few of them:
1. The Solar day is the period of time between the sunrise and its rising again or between the sunset and its setting again. Since the Sun was not created till the fourth day [Genesis 1:16-19]...then the first four days were not solar days. "


FOC:
"then God said, Let light be! And there was light. "
(Genesis 1:3 LITV)

This same ''LIGHT" will one day be used again for eternity...

"And night will not be there; and they have no need of a lamp or a light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them. And they shall reign to the ages of the ages. "
(Revelation 22:5 LITV)



"If you take the literal 6 day creation point of view, you miss so much beauty and truth in the Bible. The Bible says that light was before the sun, this is refering to the nebula that scientists tell us of from which the solar system came. "


FOC:

DECEPTION !!
I presented previously where the Light came from and will come from agian.


"Scientists try to make evidence match thier theory of evolution, but if you take out their tampering, the evidence actually supports creation in phases over long periods of time"


FOC:
If you take out mans tampering to begin with 90% of it fits perfectly anyway.
The other that doesn't YET, may may soon be exposed as new thoery comes out.
If not, it doesnt change the FACT that God said He did it in EXACTLY 6 DAYS



"When St. Moses wrote this passage, I seriously doubt that he was sitting down to write a scientific expositioni of the method used by God for creation"


FOC:
St (?) Moses was given the words by our God to write. To ridicule and reject them is outright heresy.

Whats next? Will you say that Jesus was an Essene?



"This is not lying, this is not untruth, this is not error in the Bible. "



FOC:
Correct. the Bible is not the source in err.



"God created everything. He created everything Good. He is all powerful. He created us in a different state then we're in now after the fall. These are the things we should be taking from this passage, not dry scientific facts that the author (the direct author, St. Moses, or the primary authory, God) didn't intend to convey through this wonderful passage."


FOC:
This is very nice. Will you stop at these words and continue to deny the truth just because it may not make sense to your intellect that our God could do it in 6 days just as He said He did?
 
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CopticOrthodox

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He created light and darkness, and called the light day, and the darkness night, this is true... but since this is before the sun was created, how could these be solar days? Are you saying that God created some other light, and had the earth revolve around it, or it around the earth, so that there were 24 hr periods as now, and then later replaced it with the sun and kept the timing the same?

What's wrong with refering to St. Moses as a saint? A saint is someone in heaven who lived righteously, doesn't St. Moses fit that description? I haven't ridiculed or rejected anything, I've simply suggested that it was written in a different style than you assume, as religious truth rather than as one writting for a scientific journal. The Biblical writters did not know that their writting was being inspired by God as they wrote it, they wrote and thier writtings were later collected into the Bible. In the early Church there was much controversy over which books of the NT should be included, which wouldn't have been the case if the writters had known it was inspired and treated them as such after writting them.

What does saying that you've misunderstood the intent and style of writting of this passage have to do with the idea that Christ was an Essense, why would I think that?

We have different oppinions on the meaning of this passage, but we're still Christians, can't we discuss our differences charitably, without raised voices (caps) and sarcasm?
 
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Sorry, I really just use caps to highlight points or words.
Raised voice is not meant at all.

In Genesis 1:5, God is being very specific.
Then by mentioning FIRST day or day ONE, He is even further validating the fact that He is refering to a single earth day.

"Solar'' before the 4th day is irrelevant.
The ''light'' God has created is obvioulsy adequate to sustain life until the 4th day, so it can be assumed that it also would be enough to establish a day/night cycle as well.



CopticOrthodox"
"The Biblical writters did not know that their writting was being inspired by God as they wrote it"


FOC:
This in unfounded speculation.
God talked directly to Moses in Genesis.
I hardly think we're capable of claiming that God did not talk in a manner convincing enough for the writers to be sure He was indeed ''talking'' to them.




CopticOrthodox:
What does saying that you've misunderstood the intent and style of writting of this passage have to do with the idea that Christ was an Essense, why would I think that?



FOC:
Just checking.
 
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CopticOrthodox

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Ok, lets assume that God spoke directly to Moses, who wrote it down. When a father speaks to their young son, and tries to explain things to them that they're having trouble understanding, a father will often explain it in the form of a story. Such a story is often not absolutely scientifically accurate, but conveys the point the parent is trying to get accross, and certainly we do not consider this lying just because there are a few scientific inaccuracies in a lesson that is not about science. We don't find this an offensive thought. So when God spoke to his son, Moses, with a greater difference between them than between a father and his child, why is it such an offensive thought that the story he told him to explain the fall and the beginning of salvation history was not 100% scientifically accurate in the same way? I'm not asking you to accept this as a proof, I'm only asking why is the idea so offensive?
 
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"I'm not asking you to accept this as a proof, I'm only asking why is the idea so offensive"


FOC:

God was very plain in His wording of creation and we try to find PROOF that it is not true.
Creation is not the only issue that this type of thinking has affected.

Its offensive because God laid out the plain truth and many call Him a liar.

It has not ended there, nor is there any indication that showing the Bible as incorrect will stop at any point.

EVOLUTION=COMPROMISE.
 
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FOC, thank you for those passages.
I do not think the Rom one was relavent, but the Col and especially the Thes were. I had not noticed these before and they are certainly giving me much thought.
However, in #39 you are saying there are problems with calling God a liar. This seems to be inconsistant with the reply God gave me.
Note that I, and CO in #38 (I do not necessarily agree with everything else he has said) are not calling God a liar, just that He presented things to Moses in the best way possible. Note that we can directly see through telescopes that the Universe is vast, with billions of other galaxies each with billions of stars, which are actually just like our sun but further away, not qualitatively different objects, that plants revolve arround many of these stars and we are just on one planet out of nine orbiting an unremarkable star on the arm of an unremarkable galaxy. (That sentance turned out longer then planed!). A simple reading of Genesis suggests none of this, but that our planet is the centre of creation, with a couple of big lights and a load of little tiny lights dotted around us.
I do not think you can avoid saying that the obvious, literal creation account is at the very least a bit misleading as a scientific account.
 
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