Do you think we will have hobbies in heaven?

[LW97Nils]

eh, it's a list of all the dead and showing the totality, all the people who were dead on the earth, the dead who'd drowned at sea and their body could never be recovered and buried, and those who were in hell, it's basically leaving nobody out.

In any of this context it's not presenting sea as a symbol. The seas conceal the bodies lost to it, but at the GWT, they do not escape judgment.

Yeah, except that I do not believe all at the GWT judgement will be lost. If so, why are they being judged by their works? Only those not in the Book of Life will be cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone/Sulfur.

 

[Jamdoc]

Yeah, except that I do not believe all at the GWT judgement will be lost. If so, why are they being judged by their works? Only those not in the Book of Life will be cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone/Sulfur.

I agree but that wasn't the point being made.
The point is that Revelation 20 can't be used to define what the sea means in Revelation 21:1.

 

[DavidPT]

The point is that Revelation 20 can't be used to define what the sea means in Revelation 21:1.

If we factor in the following since it appears to be involving the same age Revelation 21-22 is involving, this should at least mean we are not to take it as a literal sea in Revelation 21:1.

Ezekiel 47:6 And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen this? Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river.
7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.
8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.
10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine .


What I have underlined above compare with some of the following I have underlined below.

Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations .

Then note what Ezekiel 47:8 records---These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea : which being brought forth into the sea , the waters shall be healed

Obviously, the sea meant in verse 8 is meaning in the literal sense. Which then means if these accounts involving Revelation 21-22 and Ezekiel 47:6-12 are pertaining to the same era of time, we know from Ezekiel 47:8 that the sea meant in Revelation 21:1 can't be meaning in the literal sense, since Ezekiel 47:8 is clearly contradicting that if we decide to take 'sea' in Revelation 21:1 in the literal sense.

In the event that you or anyone else disagrees that Ezekiel 47:6-12 is involving the same age Revelation 21-22 is involving, one then has to get around this then---neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed(Ezekiel 47:12). Where that obviously requires an age that is never ending in order for it to never be consumed. When it says neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed, it is not meaning because no one will be eating any of it. It is meaning because there will be a never ending supply of it which then requires an age that has no end. Clearly, the new heavens and new earth will have no end.

 

[LW97Nils]

I agree but that wasn't the point being made.
The point is that Revelation 20 can't be used to define what the sea means in Revelation 21:1.

Yeah, but I doubt that God will rott out the ocean.

 

[Jamdoc]

If we factor in the following since it appears to be involving the same age Revelation 21-22 is involving, this should at least mean we are not to take it as a literal sea in Revelation 21:1.

Ezekiel 47:6 And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen this? Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river.
7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.
8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.
10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine .


What I have underlined above compare with some of the following I have underlined below.

Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations .

Then note what Ezekiel 47:8 records---These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea : which being brought forth into the sea , the waters shall be healed

Obviously, the sea meant in verse 8 is meaning in the literal sense. Which then means if these accounts involving Revelation 21-22 and Ezekiel 47:6-12 are pertaining to the same era of time, we know from Ezekiel 47:8 that the sea meant in Revelation 21:1 can't be meaning in the literal sense, since Ezekiel 47:8 is clearly contradicting that if we decide to take 'sea' in Revelation 21:1 in the literal sense.

In the event that you or anyone else disagrees that Ezekiel 47:6-12 is involving the same age Revelation 21-22 is involving, one then has to get around this then---neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed(Ezekiel 47:12). Where that obviously requires an age that is never ending in order for it to never be consumed. When it says neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed, it is not meaning because no one will be eating any of it. It is meaning because there will be a never ending supply of it which then requires an age that has no end. Clearly, the new heavens and new earth will have no end.

okay, I can see that.
thank you
so the sea = gentiles thing gains more credibility, but where is the sea being a symbol for gentiles explained? I suppose I'd still want to see that to understand it.

 

[DavidPT]

Yeah, but I doubt that God will rott out the ocean.

If we factor in Ezekiel 47:8, for example, wouldn't it be logical that one of the reasons the waters need healing is because of what happened to them during some of the trumpets and vials?

Revelation 8:9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

Revelation 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

Ezekiel 47:8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.


Per this scenario, would not the events involving Revelation 8:9 and Revelation 16:3 be meaning prior to the events involving Ezekiel 47:8? Because, after all, it makes little sense that Ezekiel 47:8 is meaning before Revelation 8:9 and Revelation 16:3 since that would mean the waters were healed in vain if after they have been healed, Revelation 8:9 and Revelation 16:3 then happens to them.

 

[Jamdoc]

If we factor in Ezekiel 47:8, for example, wouldn't it be logical that one of the reasons the waters need healing is because of what happened to them during some of the trumpets and vials?

Revelation 8:9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

Revelation 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

Ezekiel 47:8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.


Per this scenario, would not the events involving Revelation 8:9 and Revelation 16:3 be meaning prior to the events involving Ezekiel 47:8? Because, after all, it makes little sense that Ezekiel 47:8 is meaning before Revelation 8:9 and Revelation 16:3 since that would mean the waters were healed in vain if after they have been healed, Revelation 8:9 and Revelation 16:3 then happens to them.

That actually makes a lot of sense, I more specifically thought about the Dead Sea in Ezekiel 47 that right now it's so salty that fish can't live in it I think (I could be wrong?), but healing it would make it fresh water.

If they are healed after the destruction they face worldwide in the trumpets and bowls that would make a lot of sense, and that would mean, God does intend to have oceans teaming with life on the new earth.

Restoration of creation is what I want, and I feel tremendous guilt at the idea of something God originally creating and declaring good being wiped away eternally because we sinned and destroyed it.

 

[LW97Nils]

If we factor in Ezekiel 47:8, for example, wouldn't it be logical that one of the reasons the waters need healing is because of what happened to them during some of the trumpets and vials?

Revelation 8:9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

Revelation 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

Ezekiel 47:8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.


Per this scenario, would not the events involving Revelation 8:9 and Revelation 16:3 be meaning prior to the events involving Ezekiel 47:8? Because, after all, it makes little sense that Ezekiel 47:8 is meaning before Revelation 8:9 and Revelation 16:3 since that would mean the waters were healed in vain if after they have been healed, Revelation 8:9 and Revelation 16:3 then happens to them.

Question would be whether the ocean will return in the Millenium then.

 

[Timtofly]

I don't know about individual pets, but animals yes.
The exception and the thing that makes my heart sink is this:

Revelation 16


combined with this from Revelation 21


So all sea life killed,... and not created anew.
It's just gone.

and in the beginning God said
Genesis 1

So God apparently changed His mind.
It's like a permanent price to be paid for our sin that God does not restore these animals that had done nothing wrong, it's our fault that they are killed eternally. That weighs on me.

Why are you blaming the creation for having a limited existence? That is like the clay asking God, why was I made this way, and then blame yourself.

Where does it ever say God would maintain any creation forever?

We won't even remember this creation. It is not creation's fault that creation is limited to time. Isaiah 65:17-18

"For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy."

Those in the Millennium will not even remember what life is like today. Will there be any animals at all on earth that we currently associate with, other than those mentioned in Scripture? A wolf is your canine. There will be sheep. I am not sure about goats. But that is about earth.


Why does everyone concentrate on Noah's ark? Paradise was removed from the earth and placed in heaven at the same time. Whatever was in Paradise has always been there and would never die and cease to exist. Paradise was already waiting there in the firmament for the Cross, so those from the OT could return at that point.

As sinners we tend to think too much on what we want and desire, and fail to even see from Scripture what God wants or His desires.

 

[Timtofly]

"is as the sand of the sea" is using a simile, a metaphor, to basically say that there's more of God's enemies than grains of sand on a beach at the end, 1000 years without Satan and the moment he's released again..

That does not mean that. "As" does not mean "more than".

It means that when they show up, one person would not be able to count them immediately. It would be like looking at a beach and trying to estimate the amount of sand in an hour. It would take more than a hour to count those who followed Satan.

 

[Jamdoc]

That does not mean that. "As" does not mean "more than".

It means that when they show up, one person would not be able to count them immediately. It would be like looking at a beach and trying to estimate the amount of sand in an hour. It would take more than a hour to count those who followed Satan.

the point being it's illustrating a massive number.
not defining what sea means in Revelation 21:1

 

[biblelesson]

We surely don't need it, but we we won't need to eat anymore either, yet there are indications that we will eat still.

"and they shall build houses, and themselves shall dwell in them; and they shall plant vineyards, and themselves shall eat the fruit thereof." Isaiah 65:21

Isaiah 65:21 relates to the thousand year millennium, those that are alive in Jerusalem after Jesus return where He will sit on David’s throne and the Church will have been changed and will rule with Him. This is the time when Satan will be bound, there will be peace, and other nations (other than Israel) will be required to come up to Jerusalem every year to worship God.

 

[LW97Nils]

Isaiah 65:21 relates to the thousand year millennium, those that are alive in Jerusalem after Jesus return where He will sit on David’s throne and the Church will have been changed and will rule with Him. This is the time when Satan will be bound, there will be peace, and other nations (other than Israel) will be required to come up to Jerusalem every year to worship God.

According to Verse 17, it is NOT about the Millenium, but the time after it

 

[biblelesson]

According to Verse 17, it is NOT about the Millenium, but the time after it

Isaiah 65:17 is God proclaiming what he is going to do because the time is close, but the new heavens and new earth doesn’t happen yet because in Isaiah 65:20 you have people still dying. This is still the millennium.

Read Revelation 21:1-4, which explains the time of the new heavens and new earth. Notice Revelation 21:4 where people will die no more. This is after the millennium.

This is a short lesson that explains the difference between the millennium and the new heavens and new earth.

 

[LW97Nils]

Isaiah 65:17 is God proclaiming what he is going to do because the time is close, but the new heavens and new earth doesn’t happen yet because in Isaiah 65:20 you have people still dying. This is still the millennium.

Read Revelation 21:1-4, which explains the time of the new heavens and new earth.

Well, both are the shall term. On the Millenium, it is still the old Earth. No need to build. But on the New Heaven and New Earth, there's ever need to build! I doubt that the New Earth will be limited to the New Jerusalem. There will be other towns and cities also.
As for death, who knows? What about the people who were born into the Millenium and not deceived by Satan at the end of it? Technically, they won't have heavenly bodies like us will receive this planet when we leave this planet.

 

[LW97Nils]

Well, both are the shall term. On the Millenium, it is still the old Earth. No need to build. But on the New Heaven and New Earth, there's ever need to build! I doubt that the New Earth will be limited to the New Jerusalem. There will be other towns and cities also.
As for death, who knows? What about the people who were born into the Millenium and not deceived by Satan at the end of it? Technically, they won't have heavenly bodies like us will receive this planet when we leave this planet.

Plus, there is the tree of life saints will have to keep eating on. See the very last chapter. Could people die? We don't know. But the context in Isaiah shows that Verse 20 IS post-millenial. To interpret it another way just makes no sense following the context.
I believe there may be differences regarding the bodies that we'll get after our death, and the bodies millenial saints will have.

 

[biblelesson]

Well, both are the shall term. On the Millenium, it is still the old Earth. No need to build. But on the New Heaven and New Earth, there's ever need to build! I doubt that the New Earth will be limited to the New Jerusalem. There will be other towns and cities also.
As for death, who knows? What about the people who were born into the Millenium and not deceived by Satan at the end of it? Technically, they won't have heavenly bodies like us will receive this planet when we leave this planet.

There is a lot of study relating to the subject you are addressing. There are different prophets that prophesied the same end times events. You will need to study each of them to get a clear understanding, then you won’t have to speculate; God provides all the answers in His word.

A good reference Bible and concordance will help with your studies.

Here are the prophets or books of the Bible that go into the end times: Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Micah, and of course Revelation. There are others as well. A good concordance and reference Bible can guide you!

 

[biblelesson]

Well, both are the shall term. On the Millenium, it is still the old Earth. No need to build. But on the New Heaven and New Earth, there's ever need to build!

God speaks of New Jerusalem and no other place, and when it comes down from Heaven the completion of the city will be done. It comes down as a bride adorn for a bride. Jesus told the disciples “In my fathers house are many mansions, I go and prepare a place for you.” We know that new Jerusalem is the place Jesus was talking about because there are 12 foundations in New Jerusalem with the name of Jesus 12 disciples. New Jerusalem is for the Old Testament saints, the disciples, the apostles, the church, and those saved in the millennium.

More study and praying for understanding will help you see how one scripture relates to another scripture to get the full understanding.

 

[biblelesson]

As for death, who knows? What about the people who were born into the Millenium and not deceived by Satan at the end of it? Technically, they won't have heavenly bodies like us will receive this planet when we leave this planet.

The people born into the millennium will have heavenly bodies just like the saints in Christ. There will be no more death therefore their bodies will have to be changed also. However those that are not in Christ will receive bodies that cannot die, but will go to another place.

Every person on earth that ever lived will have bodies that cannot die.

 

[DavidPT]

The people born into the millennium will have heavenly bodies just like the saints in Christ. There will be no more death therefore their bodies will have to be changed also. However those that are not in Christ will receive bodies that cannot die, but will go to another place.

Every person on earth that ever lived will have bodies that cannot die.

I'm not entirely following you here. How then does God devour someone with fire if they are in bodies that can't die? Or are you meaning they are not in bodies that cannot die until they are devoured first, then they are in bodies that cannot die when they are raised back to life?

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them