Do you think God causes suffering?

[Bobber]

I'm going to repost an OP from a reddit thread

Suffering is seen as a good thing in Christianity. For the most part your average Christian will claim that suffering is simply God attempting to make you better like and train you. In fact it’s even promised in the Bible that followers will suffer. Suffering is glorified in the Bible.

I don't think you can draw a one answer thing about suffering. It's kind of like what's it like to play sports. Must clarify. What type of sport (or suffering) are you talking about. This can have various things that could be said about different kinds and you just can't say the same answer applies to all.

 

[St_Worm2]

It is God's will that you have the desires of your heart.......

Hello Raymond, so it's your belief that God gives us our heart's desires with no strings attached whatsoever, and with no regard for the consequences of doing so? Wouldn't that make Him a Cosmic Sugar-Daddy rather than a loving, heavenly Father?

What if what I truly want from Him is sinful? Will God go ahead and give it to me anyway simply because it is my heart's greatest desire in the moment?

What if He knows that what I want from Him will harm me? (would you hand your car keys over to your 5 yr old grandson because he really wants to drive your car )

Thanks

--David
p.s. - I agree with you that God wants us to have our heart's desire and will see that we eventually get it, but only if He knows that what we want will do us good, not harm us .. e.g. Philippians 1:6.

Psalms 37
Delight yourself in the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart.

Matthew 6
33 Seek first His kingdom and His righteousness and all these things will be added unto you.​

.

 

[EpicScore]

Yes but if God is causing the suffering wouldn't it be his will and thus pleasing him? He wouldn't do something out of his will right? Just trying to understand.

There's also a distinction between God's active will and permissive will. Reformers have agreed that there are times where God allows people to indulge in their sinful desires and commit acts He does not approve of (Romans 1:24), which more often than not would lead to suffering, and punishment to give people the freedom to make their own choices.

In a way, it is his "will" because He freely chose not to directly intervene when things go bad for us, even though He has the power to do so, but to say that he takes pleasure when he sees how people had made wreck of both creation and themselves goes against what the Bible reveals of His character.

An example of this would be the story of Jesus and Lazarus (John 11). Lazarus was ill and Jesus was told in advance about his condition, yet he delayed in coming to his friend until the man died, because he knew the resurrection he was about to bring from Lazarus's death would result in a greater joy and glory than it would have, had he came early and "merely" healed him from sickness.

However, Jesus wasn't happy about Lazarus's death (He wept over him, after all), but sometimes, the result he wants to accomplish simply isn't possible without allowing suffering to precede it.

After all, "The greater the struggle, the more glorious the triumph."

 

[RaymondG]

Hello Raymond, so it's your belief that God gives us our heart's desires with no strings attached whatsoever, and with no regard for the consequences of doing so? Wouldn't that make Him a Cosmic Sugar-Daddy rather than a loving, heavenly Father?

What if what I truly want from Him is sinful? Will God go ahead and give it to me anyway simply because it is my heart's greatest desire in the moment?

What if He knows that what I want from Him will harm me? (would you hand your car keys over to your 5 yr old grandson because he really wants to drive your car )

Thanks

--David
p.s. - I agree with you that God wants us to have our heart's desire and will see that we eventually get it, but only if He knows that what we want will do us good, not harm us .. e.g. Philippians 1:6.

Psalms 37
Delight yourself in the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart.

Matthew 6
33 Seek first His kingdom and His righteousness and all these things will be added unto you.​

.

Indeed our God is a good, good, father......If you prefer the term "cosmic sugar daddy" I find no fault in it.

If we ask Him for bread, would He give us a stone? No, he will give us bread

(8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?")

But there are failsafe's in place. There are no 5 yr olds who would 1. ask for the keys to a car or 2. if they were given the keys, be able to get in the car, start it, put it in park and take off.

Even the new push start cars require that you press the brakes before starting and you would have to know the press the D button etc... It is unlikely for this attempt to drive to be successful with only a key in hand.....in the unlikely event that a child would even make this request.

Likewise those who are spiritually on milk, like as the child, naturally will not know how to ask as well. These are they who say, and are content with, phrases like "God sometimes says "no,"" and "The devil tried to hinder me by doing ____" and " God didnt want me to have it..." etc...

When one has matured, they are more prepared to govern their lives and ask only for things that will bring themselves and others good......and are given this knowledge. All others will assume they are praying right and God is just saying "no" or nothing at all. And there is nothing wrong with this.

 

[saisigh]

Hi Saisigh, our heavenly Father was "pleased" to send His only, begotten Son here to suffer and die on the Cross ~for us~/~on our behalf~. It was His "will" to do so and it "pleased" Him to do so because it provided the means of our salvation, ~NOT~ because He was pleased to see His Son suffer (do you understand the difference?).

God does not derive some sort of sick "pleasure" from the suffering that besets us at times (suffering that He allows us to endure). Rather, He is pleased by the good things that He knows our suffering will bring about in our lives

This is true of earthly parents as well in regards to disciplining our children. We love our children and want the very best for them, so it "pleases" us to spank (or discipline our children in others ways) whenever necessary, for their safety and betterment, etc., to help them learn to deal with life in a reasonable way and to grow up to be responsible adults ... NOT because we enjoy punishing them and derive some sort of pleasure from seeing them suffer (WE DON'T)!!

You said that you are a fairly new Christian. If you don't mind me asking, what was the main reason(s) that you decided to become one (also, what kind of things were you hoping to receive from God by becoming a Christian)? Perhaps if I understood these things I would be better able to get to the heart of what's bothering you and answer your questions in a way that makes more sense to you

Thanks

God bless you!

--David

.​

I don't believe in physical discipline so maybe I don't absorb your analogy that well. I would like to argue that whopping your children is a big difference from suffering considering suffering can be anything vague from your day going bad to having a disease to being tortured and dying. Much different in my honest opinion. I fail to see how that makes you a better person. A parent is somewhat limited on the affliction they can put on a child compared to God. I would argue it doesn't really matter what the sub context is of why he's pleased to see people suffer. Imagine a criminal saying "I was not pleased to kill that person in particular I just wanted his money and was pleased to steal it". Does that not negate that he killed someone. Alternatively if God didn't enjoy our suffering but instead like the effects of it couldn't he find a less painful alternative. Not sure if this makes sense. For God to cause suffering on people for his purposes would probably mean he sees no fault in the system.

 

[RaymondG]

I don't believe in physical discipline so maybe I don't absorb your analogy that well. I would like to argue that whopping your children is a big difference from suffering considering suffering can be anything vague from your day going bad to having a disease to being tortured and dying. Much different in my honest opinion. I fail to see how that makes you a better person. A parent is somewhat limited on the affliction they can put on a child compared to God. I would argue it doesn't really matter what the sub context is of why he's pleased to see people suffer. Imagine a criminal saying "I was not pleased to kill that person in particular I just wanted his money and was pleased to steal it". Does that not negate that he killed someone. Alternatively if God didn't enjoy our suffering but instead like the effects of it couldn't he find a less painful alternative. Not sure if this makes sense. For God to cause suffering on people for his purposes would probably mean he sees no fault in the system.

What if you had a child who asked for a bike, which you gave to them... If they fell off the bike one day and hurt themselves, would you feel that you would enjoy their suffering because you were the one who gave them the bike? If the fall helped them to ride better and avoid falling in the future, would you like that this lesson was learned? If you liked the fact that your child became a better rider after suffering the fall.....would this mean that you liked the fact that they suffered.....or that the suffering was in your plans?

Im not understanding how you are linking what God likes to the fact that we suffer.

 

[saisigh]

What if you had a child who asked for a bike, which you gave to them... If they fell off the bike one day and hurt themselves, would you feel that you would enjoy their suffering because you were the one who gave them the bike? If the fall helped them to ride better and avoid falling in the future, would you like that this lesson was learned? If you liked the fact that your child became a better rider after suffering the fall.....would this mean that you liked the fact that they suffered.....or that the suffering was in your plans?

Im not understanding how you are linking what God likes to the fact that we suffer.

Why wouldn't I just teach them how to properly ride the bike and follow them as they are riding to prevent the fall from happening? Why does the child need to be hurt to perfect bike riding?

 

[RaymondG]

Why wouldn't I just teach them how to properly ride the bike and follow them as they are riding to prevent the fall from happening? Why does the child need to be hurt to perfect bike riding?

This is not possible......Let's change the bike to a car then.... If you buy your child a car.....would you take pleasure in them getting into an accident? Would you have caused it because you got the car?

Would you expect that you would never let him drive the car alone, so that you can always be there to tell him how to drive correctly? Would you expect that if you trained him to become a perfect driver, this would mean that he could never get in an accident in the future?

I think not.....too many variables.... the child could hit an unseen ditch and fall off the bike after all your training... no way to be with them all the time.

We have to face it, suffering has no bearing on the feeling of the giver or gradian/trainer in relation to that suffering.

 

[Strong in Him]

Why wouldn't I just teach them how to properly ride the bike and follow them as they are riding to prevent the fall from happening? Why does the child need to be hurt to perfect bike riding?

A child doesn't NEED to be hurt.
A parent does not plan for it to fall off and hurt itself as part of the learning process. But children fall off bikes sometimes; even if they have learned to ride them without injury. They may be trying to see how fast they can go, they might skid on some mud or come off in some other way.

Children injure themselves all the time - the only way for parents to stop that from happening is to follow them everywhere, holding their hands, or to wrap them up in cotton wool.
Even if it were possible for you to follow your child for years, removing sharp/hot/dangerous things so that they never got injured; one day, your child would be on its own, with no knowledge of danger in the world or how to handle it.

 

[saisigh]

A child doesn't NEED to be hurt.
A parent does not plan for it to fall off and hurt itself as part of the learning process. But children fall off bikes sometimes; even if they have learned to ride them without injury. They may be trying to see how fast they can go, they might skid on some mud or come off in some other way.

Children injure themselves all the time - the only way for parents to stop that from happening is to follow them everywhere, holding their hands, or to wrap them up in cotton wool.
Even if it were possible for you to follow your child for years, removing sharp/hot/dangerous things so that they never got injured; one day, your child would be on its own, with no knowledge of danger in the world or how to handle it.

“I will show him how much he MUST suffer for my name."

"For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to SUFFER FOR him,"

"For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you MIGHT FOLLOWin his steps."

"So then, those who suffer according to God's WILL should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good."
sounds pretty planned to me

 

[saisigh]

This is not possible......Let's change the bike to a car then.... If you buy your child a car.....would you take pleasure in them getting into an accident? Would you have caused it because you got the car?

Would you expect that you would never let him drive the car alone, so that you can always be there to tell him how to drive correctly? Would you expect that if you trained him to become a perfect driver, this would mean that he could never get in an accident in the future?

I think not.....too many variables.... the child could hit an unseen ditch and fall off the bike after all your training... no way to be with them all the time.

We have to face it, suffering has no bearing on the feeling of the giver or gradian/trainer in relation to that suffering.

“I will show him how much he must suffer for my name."

"For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him,"

"For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps."

"So then, those who suffer according to God's will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good."

Except these verses dont imply God is simply letting suffering the implication is he's playing an active role. I get your analogy but a better one would be a parent buying the car and cutting the breaks.

 

[RaymondG]

“I will show him how much he must suffer for my name."

"For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him,"

"For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps."

"So then, those who suffer according to God's will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good."

Except these verses dont imply God is simply letting suffering the implication is he's playing an active role. I get your analogy but a better one would be a parent buying the car and cutting the breaks.

I liken this suffering to what I am experiencing now......Trying to convey the true and being ignore. Some religious people laugh at and mock my views of truth and my experiences. But I count it all joy when I am persecuted for righteousness sake.....

I think you are reading your own version of suffering into scripture, when it may not be there......just like I could be.

 

[Strong in Him]

“I will show him how much he MUST suffer for my name."

Suffering in the form of persecution, yes.
God knew that Romans and Jews alike would persecute those who followed him; they had persecuted his Son for speaking the truth, they would persecute his children too.
Jesus was warning his disciples that they WOULD suffer for following him.

"For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to SUFFER FOR him,"

Suffering because of persecution; yes.
Evil men persecute Christians and try to turn them away from God or make them renounce their faith. This is from the devil. Jesus said that the thief had come to steal and to destroy, John 10:10. The devil wants people to turn away from God, then they will die and be with him in hell forever.

The NT makes it clear that anyone who is tortured/persecuted for their faith, stands firm and does not deny Jesus, will be blessed for doing good.
It IS good, and to be admired, if some evil person says "deny your faith, or I'll stab you", and the Christian replies "I'm not afraid of death but I am afraid of denying Jesus; so, no". Suffering for Jesus is not the same as suffering cancer, and God does not send cancer and sickness to us because he wants us to suffer.

"For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you MIGHT FOLLOWin his steps."

Yes; like I said, Jesus said that if people hated and persecuted him for preaching the truth, they would with us too.
It was a prophecy and a warning - "if you follow me and stand up for me, some people won't like it and will persecute you."

"So then, those who suffer according to God's WILL should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good."
sounds pretty planned to me

No, it means that those who suffer because they are following God should continue to good and stand firm. Not, "God wants you to suffer the pain of sickness/bereavement and has decided to send it to you - this is a good and perfect gift and is for your own good and spiritual growth. In fact, God takes delight in your agony and wants you to suffer". That is not at all Biblical. Jesus healed diseases; he didn't say "tough, you'll thank me one day."

 

[saisigh]

I liken this suffering to what I am experiencing now......Trying to convey the true and being ignore. Some religious people laugh at and mock my views of truth and my experiences. But I count it all joy when I am persecuted for righteousness sake.....

I think you are reading your own version of suffering into scripture, when it may not be there......just like I could be.

Care to explain what you mean?

 

[RaymondG]

Care to explain what you mean?

I dont believe that the verses you quoted details the type of suffering you are describing in this thread.

 

[St_Worm2]

Indeed our God is a good, good, father......If you prefer the term "cosmic sugar daddy" I find no fault in it. If we ask Him for bread, would He give us a stone? No, he will give us bread.

Hello again Raymond, how about if we ask Him for a serpent (meaning something that God knows will harm us)? Would you give your son a rattle snake to play with just because he asked you for it .. or would you say "no"?

That's the difference between a father and a sugar daddy. A sugar daddy wants what is best for himself, a loving (true) father wants what is best for his children.

There are no 5 yr olds who would 1. ask for the keys to a car or 2. if they were given the keys, be able to get in the car, start it, put it in park and take off. Even the new push start cars require that you press the brakes before starting and you would have to know the press the D button etc... It is unlikely for this attempt to drive to be successful with only a key in hand.....in the unlikely event that a child would even make this request.

Ah contraire mon ami (and this is but one recent example):

5 year old STEALS FAMILY'S CAR and drives down Utah highway! - Bing video​

Likewise those who are spiritually on milk, like as the child, naturally will not know how to ask as well. These are they who say, and are content with, phrases like "God sometimes says "no,"" and "The devil tried to hinder me by doing ____" and " God didnt want me to have it..." etc...

When one has matured, they are more prepared to govern their lives and ask only for things that will bring themselves and others good......and are given this knowledge. All others will assume they are praying right and God is just saying "no" or nothing at all. And there is nothing wrong with this.

So, you're saying that to be able to receive what we want from God, we first need to be mature enough in the faith to only want what God wants us to have?

So then, it's not really "how" one asks God for things, it's where our walk with Him is in the moment that makes the difference (and here I thought you were going to share some kind of specifically worded incantation with us so that we can get whatever we want, even if it would be horrible for us ).

--David
p.s. - or we could listen to this advice.

Psalms 37
4 Delight yourself in the Lord, and He will give you the desires of your heart.​

 

[St_Worm2]

I would argue it doesn't really matter what the sub context is of why he's pleased to see people suffer.

To be clear, again, God is NOT pleased to see people suffer, rather, He is pleased to see the GOOD that happens as a result of the temporal suffering that we experience in this life at times.

For instance, while He was certainly NOT "pleased" to see His innocent Son (the Person who He loves above all others in the universe) being nailed to a Cross and suffering the horrific death that He did. However, He was pleased with the result of the Lord Jesus' temporal suffering ... our salvation.

Likewise, the Lord Jesus was pleased to obey His Father in this because He knew what the joyous outcome of His temporal suffering would be, the salvation of/eternal life for His "bride", the church. The Lord Jesus choose to suffer for us, to live for us and to die for us to save us

As an analogy, I suspect that there hasn't been a woman in history who has looked forward to the many difficulties that are involved in carrying a child to term and (especially) to giving birth, but billions upon billions of women have, nevertheless, chosen to do so over the millennia of our existence, suffering through all of the difficulties and the extreme pain for the joyous 'outcome' of having children

...couldn't [God] find a less painful alternative.

When there is a way to accomplish what needs to be accomplished without suffering, that's what God chooses to do (again, He is loving, not sadistic). For instance, if there was another way to secure our salvation (other than having His Son come down here and die on the Cross for us), that's what He would have done .. but there wasn't

This has been a nice conversation, but you didn't answer the two questions (from my last post to you) that I felt were far more important to for me to understand than any of the others were, so here they are again.

You said that you are a fairly new Christian, so.....

1. What was the main reason(s) behind your decision to become one?
2. What were the most important things that you were hoping to receive from God by becoming a Christian?
3. If you truly believe that the God of Heaven is a sadistic, maniacal Monster, why did you choose to become a Christian? (this last/additional question just came to mind )​

Thanks

--David
p.s. - here's something that I posted elsewhere here at CF, a poem by missionary (to India) Amy Carmichael (and a little bit about her as well) called "No Scar?"

 

[RaymondG]

Hello again Raymond, how about if we ask Him for a serpent (meaning something that God knows will harm us)? Would you give your son a rattle snake to play with just because he asked you for it .. or would you say "no"?

Yes, if you ask for a serpent you will get a serpent. Do you believe that it is possible to plant an apple seed and get oranges? Same goes for our request to God.

But again, it is unlikely for a child to request such a thing.

No use comparing man to God, for God is not like man....neither are His thoughts or ways.

That's the difference between a father and a sugar daddy. A sugar daddy wants what is best for himself, a loving (true) father wants what is best for his children.

I haven't studied sugar daddy's...I would prefer to keep the conversation centered around God or religion.

Ah contraire mon ami (and this is but one recent example):

5 year old STEALS FAMILY'S CAR and drives down Utah highway! - Bing video

I thought we were discussing asking and receiving.....not stealing.

If your are of the mind that, if you can find one example of one who agrees with you, then you are right.........you will win every argument,....in your own mind.

So, you're saying that to be able to receive what we want from God, we first need to be mature enough in the faith to only want what God wants us to have?

So then, it's not really "how" one asks God for things, it's where our walk with Him is in the moment that makes the difference (and here I thought you were going to share some kind of specifically worded incantation with us so that we can get whatever we want, even if it would be horrible for us ).

No. What I am saying is that a child does not know how to ask and needs to be taught. Yet while a child knows this and is willing to learn.....the immature will assume they know and would never seek to learn.. They pray as if grabbing a seed from a bag of 100 different seeds , only one being their desired seed, and blindly throw it to the ground. If the fruit happens to be the one they wanted, they say God answered with a yes and they know how to pray. If they get one of the other fruits, they says God said no or it wouldn't have been good for them..... or it wasn't God's will. When, in fact God produced the exact fruit for the exact seed they picked from the bag.

Only those ready to learn will say "lord, teach us how to pray" after which, they will start picking only the seeds of the fruit they desire to eat......and receiving everything they ask for.

p.s. - or we could listen to this advice.

Psalms 37
4 Delight yourself in the Lord, and He will give you the desires of your heart.

Indeed. It is a delight, knowing that the father owns everything and he said, " everything I have is thine." Therefore ask and you shall recieve.....that your joy may be full.