Do you think demons can be good?

wannabeadesigirl · Mar 23, 2012

CatsAreNice said:
I don't think so, personally. The only times I've felt that I've encountered demons are in my dreams. And it gets pretty nasty. Last night I dreamt one of them was snarling at me and dragging me down to hell by the ankle. I woke up scrabbling at my leg, convinced I was being taken all the way down. Damnedest thing. Then again, I might just be losing it!

Have you considered having your house blessed and the doors and windows consecrated? Your peaceful sleep will be in my prayers.

DamianWarS · Mar 23, 2012

Lax said:
Do you think demons have the potential to be good?
Or that they have free will?

I think sometimes we are quick to view the angelic realm be it "good" or "bad" with very human characteristics and rules. Christ did not die for angels fallen or not fallen he died for humans. So we cannot assume the same sort of conditions for angels that we have for ourselves. On top of that we assume human characteristics within angels and think they would react and reason the same way we would but nothing points to this in scripture. We simply are not privileged to know the "rules" for angels but I do think it is quite useless to pray for these beings from the lowest in rank to the highest as it would seem their fate has been chosen.

Angles do appear to have a free will of sorts as it is clear that some choose their fallen state but I don't get the impression that angels are constantly moving back and fourth from fallen to not-fallen like say for example humans may view sin and forgiveness. In revelations it describes Satan as a dragon who draws a third of the stars out of heaven which is thought to be angles. In the book of Jude it talks about fallen angels who are kept in "eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day" these angels in chains do no appear to be the same angels spoken about the revelations passage. It seems that fallen angels happens in groups and on rare occasions but it does seem like it is their choice.

In regards to if they can do good or not? Well it would seem demons can appear to good things like general help, maybe healing, wealth, prosperity or the like but in the end their motives are against God and thus are incapable of doing good since good things can only be defined by their obedience to God. Their fallen state seems to mark their ability to do good or not.

juvenissun · Mar 24, 2012

Lax said:
Do you think demons have the potential to be good?

Or that they have free will?

Yes. In fact, demons do good all the time.

When God tells them to do something (it must be good), they have to do it.

juvenissun · Mar 24, 2012

ViaCrucis said:
I don't believe the question is answerable. That's simply not the sort of thing God has felt it important for us to know. There is nothing in Scripture that suggests the devils can't repent, likewise there is nothing that says they can or will.

-CryptoLutheran

When an angel sinned, there is no return. Salvation does not apply to them. So even they repent, their sin will not be forgiven.

Blessedj01 · Mar 24, 2012

juvenissun said:
When an angel sinned, there is no return. Salvation does not apply to them. So even they repent, their sin will not be forgiven.

Further, these demons don't repent. They can't. They are sworn enemies of God and man. There is no way that they can ever reverse the pride that damaged them to the point that they waged war on Heaven. If anything, their pride is just increasing.

Is everyone forgetting that WE don't repent? It's only God's goodness through Jesus that leads mankind to repentance.

ViaCrucis · Mar 24, 2012

juvenissun said:
When an angel sinned, there is no return. Salvation does not apply to them. So even they repent, their sin will not be forgiven.

1) Where does Scripture suggest/say that the devils are stuck in their state?

2) Where does Scripture suggest/say that the devils cannot be forgiven if they did repent?

You highlighted my point that Scripture says nothing, so I assume you disagree with that assessment. If you know of Scripture that actually does address this subject, then feel free to discuss it. I know of nothing in Holy Writ that says anything one way or another, and thus the question is, this side of heaven, unanswerable.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis · Mar 24, 2012

Blessedj01 said:
Further, these demons don't repent. They can't. They are sworn enemies of God and man. There is no way that they can ever reverse the pride that damaged them to the point that they waged war on Heaven. If anything, their pride is just increasing.

Is everyone forgetting that WE don't repent? It's only God's goodness through Jesus that leads mankind to repentance.

Where does Scripture say they can't repent?

If Scripture is silent on such an issue, how can we possibly know anything like this one way or the other?

Pure speculation done in a vacuum is no basis for theological pronouncement.

-CryptoLutheran

tangled · Mar 24, 2012

WinBySurrender said:
Careful not to place God in a position of directing the demons. He doesn't. He just limits the amount of evil they are permitted to commit.

God directs everything...limiting is the same as saying, "I direct you not to do that."

Jesus directs demons to leave human beings and Jesus directed them to go into pigs in one story.

tangled · Mar 24, 2012

ViaCrucis said:
1) Where does Scripture suggest/say that the devils are stuck in their state?

2) Where does Scripture suggest/say that the devils cannot be forgiven if they did repent?

Matthew 25:41
Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

tangled · Mar 24, 2012

Lax said:
Do you think demons have the potential to be good?

Nay:

Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Lax said:
Or that they have free will?

They have free will. Satan chose to rebel against God and the Lord permitted it. There is only one Creator but demons can do whatever they want with the power that has been given to them by God (whatever that is). If a demon wanted to enter a human being, he could TRY but if God put a wall between the demon and a human then that's it; nothing the demon would do would allow it to go through unless Jesus lifted that wall.

Theofane · Mar 24, 2012

tangled said:
God directs everything...limiting is the same as saying, "I direct you not to do that."

Jesus directs demons to leave human beings and Jesus directed them to go into pigs in one story.

Yes, but only because they had no choice! Only because they were forced to do so by the authority Jesus wielded. I'm sure they (the demons) weren't happy about leaving.

ViaCrucis · Mar 24, 2012

tangled said:
Matthew 25:41
Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

So it's your contention that because the fallen angels will be cast into fire that, prior to that, it is impossible for one to repent (and therefore no longer be fallen)?

I'm not saying you're wrong.

I'm asking if that passage actually says what you're using it for.

-CryptoLutheran

tangled · Mar 24, 2012

Theofane said:
Yes, but only because they had no choice! Only because they were forced to do so by the authority Jesus wielded. I'm sure they (the demons) weren't happy about leaving.

Exactly.

tangled · Mar 24, 2012

ViaCrucis said:
So it's your contention that because the fallen angels will be cast into fire that, prior to that, it is impossible for one to repent (and therefore no longer be fallen)?

I'm not saying you're wrong.

I'm asking if that passage actually says what you're using it for.

-CryptoLutheran

The devil is a fallen angel; The verse says that the devil is destined for hell.
A fallen angel is a fallen angel.

The devil is as much of a fallen angel as the rest of the fallen angels.

Theofane · Mar 24, 2012

I think the emnity and the state of unforgiven-ness between God and the fallen angels is mutual. I also think God's judgement of them is final and absolute. These lines were drawn before the foundation of the world, were they not?

tangled · Mar 24, 2012

tangled said:
The devil is a fallen angel; The verse says that the devil is destined for hell.
A fallen angel is a fallen angel.

The devil is as much of a fallen angel as the rest of the fallen angels.

Furthermore,

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

&

James 2:19
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.

Demons believe and are still labeled demons.

tangled · Mar 24, 2012

Theofane said:
I think the emnity and the state of unforgiven-ness between God and the fallen angels is mutual. I also think God's judgement of them is final and absolute. These lines were drawn before the foundation of the world, were they not?

I agree.

Fallen angels once lived in paradise with Christ --perfect worlds-- and they still chose to rebel.

Humans don't remember being part of such a world. John 3:16's "world" is definitely earthly humans and not fallen angels.

ViaCrucis · Mar 24, 2012

tangled said:
The devil is a fallen angel; The verse says that the devil is destined for hell.
A fallen angel is a fallen angel.

The devil is as much of a fallen angel as the rest of the fallen angels.

So a fallen angel can't stop being a fallen angel.

If you don't mind me asking--and I'm only asking to foster a bit of deep thinking here--why?

What prevents a fallen angel from not being fallen?

Is their will frozen, and therefore unable?
Are they able, but God will not accept them under any circumstances?
Is it like us, their will is enslaved to sin, but unlike us God will not intervene with His mercy?

Is it something else?

Is there Scripture to back it up?

-CryptoLutheran

WinBySurrender · Mar 24, 2012

ViaCrucis said:
So a fallen angel can't stop being a fallen angel.

If you don't mind me asking--and I'm only asking to foster a bit of deep thinking here--why?

The Bible does not specifically address the issue of God's giving the fallen angels an opportunity to repent, but we do know principles and can extrapolate from them an educated guess. First, Satan (Lucifer) was one of the highest angels, perhaps the highest.

Ezekiel 28
14 "You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire."

Lucifer and all the other rebelling angels were continually in God’s presence and had a complete knowledge of the glory of God, unobstructed by the things that keep mankind from knowing Him fully. Therefore, they had no excuse for rebelling against God and turning away from Him. For Lucifer and the other angels to rebel despite what they knew about God is the worst sort of evil, and resulted in God's decision to not give Satan and the other fallen angels the opportunity to repent.

Second, God did not provide a plan of redemption for the angels as He did for mankind. The fall of the human race necessitated an atoning sacrifice for sin, and God provided that sacrifice in Jesus Christ. In that plan of redemption, God redeemed the human race and brought glory to Himself for His grace, love and mercy.

No such sacrifice was planned for the angels. In addition, God referred to those angels who remain faithful to Him as His “elect angels."

1 Timothy 5
21 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.

We know from the biblical doctrine of election that those whom God elects to salvation will be saved, and nothing can separate them from God’s love.

Romans 8
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Clearly, those angels who rebelled were not “elect angels” of God.

juvenissun · Mar 24, 2012

Blessedj01 said:
Further, these demons don't repent. They can't. They are sworn enemies of God and man. There is no way that they can ever reverse the pride that damaged them to the point that they waged war on Heaven. If anything, their pride is just increasing.

Is everyone forgetting that WE don't repent? It's only God's goodness through Jesus that leads mankind to repentance.

What do you mean by that? Before we repented (on ourselves), nobody can make us repent. Accepting Jesus as God is YOUR choice.

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