Do you recognize the word of God when you read it...

[TrevorKamal]

...or are you just following the religion you were born into without question and blocking all others from any real investigation? The reason I ask this is because I feel at odds with most of the civilized world in this regard. When I read the New Testament, or the Qur'an, or the Old Testament, or the Gita, or the writings of Baha'u'llah they are all equally impressive and i can't help but come to the conclusion that these came from something higher than normal men are capable of. If I were to believe in one only and shun all the others then I might as well give up on organized religion completely since there is no single one that shines any brighter than the others in my eyes. I seriously don't understand how some people can read the Bible and believe that it is the word of God but then say the Qur'an is not or believe the Qur'an and then call Baha'u'llah an imposter.

What initially spoke to you in your religious texts that made you think that it alone was the truth and that the others were fakes?

 

[ERice2nd]

Thats a good question. I read the bible and believe it to be the partial word of God, only because I believe God is still talking meaning there is more to his word, I just have to listen. I never read any of the other books you mentioned, to be honest I am not sure I want to. I am a follower of Jesus, I feel if I were to read other books I might be temted to doubt, I wish to avoid that temtation before I have to deal with it. It may sound that my faith is weak after saying what I said and its probably true, but I am growing in christ day by day, these forums help me with that. Maybe when I feel stronger in Christ I will see what the other religions are about.

 

[TrevorKamal]

This:

I believe God is still talking meaning there is more to his word, I just have to listen

...followed by this:

I never read any of the other books you mentioned, to be honest I am not sure I want to

...makes no sense to me and is exactly what i'm talking about. If you believe there's more then why would you be afraid to investigate it?

I am a follower of Jesus, I feel if I were to read other books I might be temted to doubt, I wish to avoid that temtation before I have to deal with it.

Tempted to doubt what? Tempted to doubt that there isn't more? Why would you be afraid of getting closer to the truth if there could be more out there? Maybe you'll read them and decide that they're all liars but isn't it silly not to even look? It reminds me of not going to the doctor so that you never have to be told you're sick.

 

[glo1]

...or are you just following the religion you were born into without question and blocking all others from any real investigation? The reason I ask this is because I feel at odds with most of the civilized world in this regard. When I read the New Testament, or the Qur'an, or the Old Testament, or the Gita, or the writings of Baha'u'llah they are all equally impressive and i can't help but come to the conclusion that these came from something higher than normal men are capable of. If I were to believe in one only and shun all the others then I might as well give up on organized religion completely since there is no single one that shines any brighter than the others in my eyes. I seriously don't understand how some people can read the Bible and believe that it is the word of God but then say the Qur'an is not or believe the Qur'an and then call Baha'u'llah an imposter.

That's a brilliant question!

I don't think I can answer it ... certainly not right now.
I have not read all the holy books you mention. I have read the OT and NT, and parts of the Gita and the Qu'ran, so my knowledge is limited.

But I will make the comment that - at least as far as the Bible and the Qu'ran are concernedm - their message is very clearly that this is the true word of God and anything else is fake, false and to be avoided.
So once you call yourself a Christian or a Muslim (as I said I cannot really speak for the other faiths), you cannot really give any other holy book much, if any, credit.

What initially spoke to you in your religious texts that made you think that it alone was the truth and that the others were fakes?

At the risk of sounding utterly mad in your ears ... it wasn't that the Bible spoke to me first. In fact I hadn't read it at that stage.
It was that I had a strong sense of Jesus speaking to me of his love for me, that came first and sent me on my faith journey.

Now, how much of that was cultural (given that I live in a country where Christianity loosely stil is the main religion), I don't know. Or why I chose to pick up the Bible rather than the Qu'ran to found my values in Jesus on, I don't know either.

I guess I believe that God prompted me in the way he intended ... and I followed him.
Since then I have not had much desire to read any other holy books, because I have an inner conviction that I have found the true one.
Now that may change in time, but for now that's how I feel.

I don't know if anything of that makes much sense, but it's the best way I can explain it.

peace

glo

 

[arunma]

...or are you just following the religion you were born into without question and blocking all others from any real investigation?

I wasn't born into Christianity.

I seriously don't understand how some people can read the Bible and believe that it is the word of God but then say the Qur'an is not or believe the Qur'an and then call Baha'u'llah an imposter.

What initially spoke to you in your religious texts that made you think that it alone was the truth and that the others were fakes?

I've read Bhagavad Gita and even parts of the Quran. The Bible has a certain religious power that these other texts do not. But ultimately they are all ink on paper. The Bible would have no power apart from God, and it is only God who can bring people to Jesus Christ.

 

[TrevorKamal]

But I will make the comment that - at least as far as the Bible and the Qu'ran are concernedm - their message is very clearly that this is the true word of God and anything else is fake, false and to be avoided.

Yeah but that's only if you're first assuming that they don't both have the same Author because if they do then the statement is still true: "This is the true word of God (Qur'an and Bible) and anything else is fake (human creations), false and to be avoided." Infact, Islam already accepts this.

The Bible has a certain religious power that these other texts do not. But ultimately they are all ink on paper. The Bible would have no power apart from God, and it is only God who can bring people to Jesus Christ.

I disagree. I feel that same power in all of them. Especially the Bible, Qur'an, and Baha'u'llah's writings.

 

[glo1]

Yeah but that's only if you're first assuming that they don't both have the same Author because if they do then the statement is still true: "This is the true word of God (Qur'an and Bible) and anything else is fake (human creations), false and to be avoided." Infact, Islam already accepts this.

I'm not sure I understand your line of argument.
If God is the author of both holy books, then surely Bible and Qu'ran would not claim that each one is the only truth, but would accept that both holy books are equally right.
Wouldn't they???

As it happens, they don't claim that.

The Bible has nothing directly to say about the authenticity of the Qu'ran (which clearly it couldn't, since the Qu'ran came into being much later). It does, however, warn of false teachers and people who will try to deny and reject God's word (in Christian eyes - of course - the Bible)
Therefore, anything that changes or rejects the Bible message (as the Qu'ran does) - from a Christian perspective - cannot be from God.

The Qu'ran does not recognise the Bible as the authenic word of God. Islam believes that the Bible is the distorted and changed version of God's message to his people.
Therefore, because it is believed to have been changed by human intervention - from a Muslim perspective - anything that deviates from God's message directly passed to Muhammed (as the Bible does), cannot be from God. No Muslim I know would look to the Bible for guidance.

Despite their many similarities and shared values, the Bible and the Qu'ran remain to be very different holy books which lie at the heart of two very different religions.

Can I ask you, when you peruse the different holy books, do you find many similarities?
What about the differences?
Do you find that out of all the holy books you have read, one has touched you more than the others in style or message?
Is there one you turn to most?
Which of the people the holy books relate to interest you the most?
(I'm just being curious ...)

glo

 

[I_are_sceptical]

I seriously don't understand how some people can read the Bible and believe that it is the word of God but then say the Qur'an is not

I was raised Protestant Christian and, even though I thought the Bible was a collection of fairy tales, I understood what the authors were saying. But when I attempted to read the Qur'an it was just a jumble of words. It made no sense to me at all.

It wasn't until I read a biography of Muhammad that I realized that, if He had accomplished such things, He must have been the Apostle of God. It was easier to read and understand the Qur'an after that.

Perhaps that means HOW we approach a given Scripture determines what we will get out of reading it.

 

[TrevorKamal]

I'm not sure I understand your line of argument.
If God is the author of both holy books, then surely Bible and Qu'ran would not claim that each one is the only truth, but would accept that both holy books are equally right.
Wouldn't they???

As it happens, they don't claim that

Well this is where it gets interesting because they always recognize the previous but obviously can't recognize the next because it doesn't exist. The Bible can't recognize the Qur'an because it hasn't been written yet but the New Testament does recognize the Old Testament. Likewise the Qur'an doesn't claim to be the only truth but recognizes the Old Testament and New Testament before it but not the writings of Baha'u'llah for how could it? You see the pattern developing here?
This is actually one of the biggest reasons for my initial question because it seems like history could be trying to tell us to watch and listen with our hearts and minds and recognize it for ourselves because most of the time people don't do that and they miss the message.

The Bible has nothing directly to say about the authenticity of the Qu'ran (which clearly it couldn't, since the Qu'ran came into being much later). It does, however, warn of false teachers and people who will try to deny and reject God's word (in Christian eyes - of course - the Bible)
Therefore, anything that changes or rejects the Bible message (as the Qu'ran does) - from a Christian perspective - cannot be from God.

Of course it has to say that to keep us from following any old looney toon but just because it warns of false prophets doesn't mean that they'll all be false does it? By that standard Christians would lock Christ up and throw away the key upon His return and if you think that would never happen look to the example of the Jews who were eagerly awaiting their Messiah. I think it might just be expected that we'll know it when we see it if we're pure of heart. That is after all how it happened the other times.

The Qu'ran does not recognise the Bible as the authenic word of God. Islam believes that the Bible is the distorted and changed version of God's message to his people.
Therefore, because it is believed to have been changed by human intervention - from a Muslim perspective - anything that deviates from God's message directly passed to Muhammed (as the Bible does), cannot be from God. No Muslim I know would look to the Bible for guidance.

Islam does recognize the Bible. "Distorted" and "Changed" are harsh words to use but i think they're just acknowledging the fact that it isn't directly from God like the Qur'an but inspired by God and who can blame them because the Bible is after all almost entirely an second hand account unlike the Qur'an. It isn't an effort to diminish the Bible it's simply a fact to be taken into consideration.

Despite their many similarities and shared values, the Bible and the Qu'ran remain to be very different holy books which lie at the heart of two very different religions.

I'm still not convinced. The "many similarities and shared values" are the important things. The other stuff can be attributed to huge cultural differences as well as mens' pride in their own religions looking for ways to keep them separate. Christianity and Judaism are also very different religions and they were even formed in the same culture.

 

[glo1]

Well this is where it gets interesting because they always recognize the previous but obviously can't recognize the next because it doesn't exist. The Bible can't recognize the Qur'an because it hasn't been written yet but the New Testament does recognize the Old Testament. Likewise the Qur'an doesn't claim to be the only truth but recognizes the Old Testament and New Testament before it but not the writings of Baha'u'llah for how could it? You see the pattern developing here?
This is actually one of the biggest reasons for my initial question because it seems like history could be trying to tell us to watch and listen with our hearts and minds and recognize it for ourselves because most of the time people don't do that and they miss the message.

So do you personally believe all these holy books build on each other, and are equally valid?

Islam does recognize the Bible. "Distorted" and "Changed" are harsh words to use but i think they're just acknowledging the fact that it isn't directly from God like the Qur'an but inspired by God and who can blame them because the Bible is after all almost entirely an second hand account unlike the Qur'an. It isn't an effort to diminish the Bible it's simply a fact to be taken into consideration.

Well, that's how many Muslims I have spoken to, have referred to the Bible.
What is interesting - and the Muslims I have spoken to have not been able to accept and understand this - is that the Bible and the Qu'ran are essentially very different.

Christians see the Bible to be an account of the history of God's people (OT) and the history and teachings of Jesus and his emerging church of followers (NT) - inspired by God and written down by human hand.

Muslims see the Qu'ran to be directly translated by God to Muhammed and eventually writte down.
The fact that the Bible is 'only' God-inspired, means that it has no authority in the eyes of Islam. And this is very much used to 'diminish the Bible', at least in my experience.

I'm still not convinced.

That's okay. It was never my intention to convince you!

The "many similarities and shared values" are the important things. The other stuff can be attributed to huge cultural differences as well as mens' pride in their own religions looking for ways to keep them separate. Christianity and Judaism are also very different religions and they were even formed in the same culture.

I agree with you that a huge effort should be made to recognise the similarities in our faiths, rather than arguing about the differences - if only for the sake of world peace and mutual understanding!

Peace

glo

 

[Arthra]

I think the Qur'an itself though respects the Torah and the Gospel ...yes many Muslims claim the Gospel was corrupted but I don't think that it what the Qur'an actually says... I think it's referring the interpretations built up around the previous scriptures.

In Qur'an 5:50

"Let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed they are (no better than) those who rebel."

( A Yusuf Ali translation)

So here the Qur'anic revelation is calling on Christians to "judge by what Allah hath revealed" in their own scriptures. How could Christians be held account if the Gospel was corrupted?

- Art

 

[Islam_mulia]

I think the Qur'an itself though respects the Torah and the Gospel ...yes many Muslims claim the Gospel was corrupted but I don't think that it what the Qur'an actually says... I think it's referring the interpretations built up around the previous scriptures.

In Qur'an 5:50

"Let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed they are (no better than) those who rebel."

( A Yusuf Ali translation)

So here the Qur'anic revelation is calling on Christians to "judge by what Allah hath revealed" in their own scriptures. How could Christians be held account if the Gospel was corrupted?

- Art

That is why Bahais are not Muslims. They always tend to find 'common grounds' between faiths of different religions... yet by sitting on the fence they are sometimes using the same polemics Christians used against Islam, and Islam used against Christianity.

Bahai should quote their own scripture and then reason with others why they are the correct 'version'. We can then see the truthfulness of their scripture in the light of the Quran and the Bible. Wouldn't that be the most appropriate approach?

Where are your scriptures?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

That is why Bahais are not Muslims. They always tend to find 'common grounds' between faiths of different religions... yet by sitting on the fence they are sometimes using the same polemics Christians used against Islam, and Islam used against Christianity.

Bahai should quote their own scripture and then reason with others why they are the correct 'version'. We can then see the truthfulness of their scripture in the light of the Quran and the Bible. Wouldn't that be the most appropriate approach?

Where are your scriptures?

I would love to discuss the book of revelation with them from purely the Bible and OC Jewish perspective only, as I view the Bible biblically fulfilled.

Matt 23:32 and ye--ye fill up the measure of your fathers. 33 `Serpents! brood of vipers! how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna?

Ezekiel 39:12 "For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them, in order to cleanse the land. 13 "Indeed all the people of the land will be burying, and they will gain renown for it on the day that I am glorified," says the Lord GOD.

 

[Arthra]

That is why Bahais are not Muslims. They always tend to find 'common grounds' between faiths of different religions... yet by sitting on the fence they are sometimes using the same polemics Christians used against Islam, and Islam used against Christianity.

Bahai should quote their own scripture and then reason with others why they are the correct 'version'. We can then see the truthfulness of their scripture in the light of the Quran and the Bible. Wouldn't that be the most appropriate approach?

Where are your scriptures?

Well thanks for your remarks Islam mulia... One of the reasons I do quote Bible and Qur'an is we respect them as they are inspired and from God.

The Bible and the Qur'an are in our belief part of the spiritual heritage of humanity so when we claim ownership of them as if they are a personal possession it does I think militate against recognizing the oneness of God and the right of all humanity to draw inspiration from them.

But the issue I was focusing on is whether the Qur'an respected the previous revelations and I think you'll agree that it does.

Our scriptures, the Baha'i Writings are available and recognize the divine revelation in the Bible and Quir'an.

- Art

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The Bible and the Qur'an are in our belief part of the spiritual heritage of humanity so when we claim ownership of them as if they are a personal possession it does I think militate against recognizing the oneness of God and the right of all humanity to draw inspiration from them.

Do you know what happens when you mix "water" with "dirt" and I am not going to say which is which?

http://www.christianforums.com/t3903333-the-foundations-of-islam-and-christianity.html
The Foundations of Islam and Christianity

Luke 21:20 `And when ye may see Jerusalem surrounded [#2944] by encampments, then know that come nigh [#1448] did her desolation ............28 and these things beginning to happen bend yourselves back, and lift up your heads, because your redemption/apo-lutrwsiV <629> doth draw nigh.'[#1448]

629. apo-lutrosis ap-ol-oo'-tro-sis from a compound of 575 and 3083; (the act) ransom in full, i.e. (figuratively) riddance, or (specially) Christian salvation:--deliverance, redemption. 3083. lutron loo'-tron from 3089; something to loosen with, i.e. a redemption price (figuratively, atonement):--ransom.

 

[Islam_mulia]

Our scriptures, the Baha'i Writings are available and recognize the divine revelation in the Bible and Quir'an.

- Art

Thanks but I do hope you use your scripture more often to drive your point, rather than using other scriptures and quoting only verses that suit your belief.

 

[Arthra]

Do you know what happens when you mix "water" with "dirt" and I am not going to say which is which?

How about mud? or clay?

"And certainly We created man of an extract of clay..."

Well as children we made mud pies and Jesus according to Qur'an as a child fashioned birds out of clay...

Sura 5:110 where the toddler Jesus created living birds out of clay. ....

A Christian version:

http://www.paintedchurch.org/shtonbir.htm

So mud or clay may be an excellent place to find our common origin.

What do you think?

- Art

 

[glo1]

They always tend to find 'common grounds' between faiths of different religions... Christianity.

Is seeking common ground necessarily a bad thing?

I wish Christians and Muslims tried harder to acknowledge the similarities in their faiths!
(It doesn't mean that we have to lose our own religious identity!)

Peace

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Well as children we made mud pies and Jesus according to Qur'an as a child fashioned birds out of clay...

(Young) Titus 1:14 not giving heed to Jewish fables and commands of men, turning themselves away from the Truth;

(Young) 2 Peter 1:16 For, skilfully devised fables not having followed out, we did make known to you the power and presence of our Lord Jesus Christ, but eye-witnesses having become of His majesty--

[SIZE=+2] [/SIZE]

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Well as children we made mud pies and Jesus according to Qur'an as a child fashioned birds out of clay...

One other thing. Nothing much is mentioned in the 4 gospels or NT about Jesus's youth.
The important thing is, what was the purpose of the LORD sending/raising up Jesus? Surely not to make " birds out of clay".

That can be a good "story" to tell children, but let us not stray off of what the main purpose of Jesus was is all I am implying. Peace.

Hosea 13:14 From the hand of Sheol I do Ransom them, From death I Redeem Them [Israel and Judah], Where [is] thy plague, O death? Where thy destruction, O Sheol? Repentance is hid from Mine eyes.

Luke 1:66 and all who heard did lay them up in their hearts, saying, `What then shall this child be?' and the hand of the Lord was with him. 67 And Zacharias his father was filled with the Holy Spirit, and did prophesy, saying, 68 `Blessed [is] the Lord, the God of Israel, Because He did look upon, And wrought redemption for His People, 69 And did raise an horn of salvation to us, In the house of David His servant, 70 As He spake by the mouth of His holy prophets,