Do you REALLY believe in Hell??

[solarwave]

daniel777: What you say makes sense and could be true, but I wouldn't claim it as definite truth that those who are in Christ, if presented the knowledge of Jesus Christ would convert to Christianity.

Personally I have never really believe that all those who don't call themselves Christians are doomed to hell. I remember when I was 15, at least, saying that those who don't know Jesus are judged by the law written on their hearts and how they respond to that.

But God has shown mercy upon mercy already. Every day God gives man is an extension of his mercy.

Let me put is another way...

A murder comes before a judge in court, the judge declares the person guilty and he orders that the murderer gets the death penalty. Should the jude be just or let him go free? People must be punished for their crimes, just as people sin against finite man and therefore get finite sentences. Likewise people who sin against an infinite God get infinite sentences.

In my opinion it is God who judges so human courts should punish only to make them better or to keep society safe.... but I see your point .

God judges according to what each man has done. An infinite hell just doesn't seem just. It makes no sense.

Actually, men are no longer ignorant:

Acts 17:30
In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

Isn't that just saying that God wants people to repent, not that they arn't ignorant. Everyone doesn't know they are destined for hell because if that were true I wouldn't be asking if hell were real. As it stands I as very ignorant of many things.

What's worse Jesus’ death or eternal Hell?

Let's think about that for a second.

When a person goes to hell, they are being punished for only their sins.

When Jesus was punished, he was punished for the sins of the entire existence of man.

Only he could take the punishment and still live because he is God (he was still alive to be able to say "it is finished" then to go on to say "into your hands I commit my spirit." If a man took that punishment he would have died in less than milliseconds.

Remember, God's wrath was upon Jesus in that three hours of darkness - eternal Hell for mankind in three hours. Who can fathom his great suffering? No my friend, eternal Hell is not as bad as what Jesus went through.

Is massive torture for a few years worse than eternally feeling the pain, lets say, of a broken wrist? Eternity is a very long time.

And I welcome you saying feel free to disagree. This after all is not an argument, but a brotherly discussion about the truth.

I don't know what I think about many theological things at the moment. Im just saying different things from what I originally believed to see what the other side of the argument is at the moment.

 

[fm107]

You’re not getting what I'm saying here. It wasn't just a broken wrist and a couple of hours of pain. The suffering and crucifixion was only part of what happened.

Within that three hours of darkness came upon the earth, God unleashed his wrath on to Jesus. We cannot even begin to imagine what Jesus went through in that three hours, think about it, all of God's wrath for the sin of all of mankind paid for in three hours of darkness. It says in scripture Jesus became sin.

2 Corinthians 5:21
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

You cannot even begin to understand what Jesus went through because you have never felt the wrath of God. So how can you even compare that to Hell?

Common sense tells us that paying for the sin of one person is not near as painful (or whatever word you’d use to describe it) as paying for the sins of all of every man, women and child who has ever lived. What Jesus went through was by far much worse than any one man being punished for his own sin, surely!!

What separates what Jesus went through in comparison to anyone else - he was completely innocent, he never sinned, the righteous one died for the unrighteous.

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous

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Hell has to be real if Heaven is real. They are two sides of the same coin, how can you have one but not the other?

Do you believe God is good? Do you trust him? Do you believe he is just?

If the answer to the above is yes, then you should accept what God has said so blatantly in the bible and trust in him in all things, he is the righteous one after all and he is the God of fairness.

 

[Colin]

Well of course that is the reason.



.

And with God all things are possible .
He's going to go after and rescue every lost sheep .

 

[fm107]

That's right he will my friend, he most certainly will.

Bare in mind though, we are not all his sheep.

John 10:26-30
but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”

 

[Daretothink]

As a Hell-bound person, I find it unfair on the part of God. He claims he loves me but he fails to give objective evidence that would change my mind. He knows me, he knows how I think, he knows what is evidence of His existence and yet he doesn't show me, he relies on hypocritical and unreliable sources like the Bible to frighten me into Christianity, but I have just as much of chance going to Hell as you do because you don't believe in the 6,000+ Gods that have ever existed. Then he expresses how important faith is, as his followers do. But if he does that why do people say that there is evidence of him. Faith is belief without evidence, yet there's evidence for faith? I'll some it up with a quote from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

""The Babel fish," said The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy quietly, "is small, yellow and leech-like, and probably the oddest thing in the Universe. It feeds on brainwave energy not from its carrier but from those around it. It absorbs all unconscious mental frequencies from this brainwave energy to nourish itself with. It then excretes into the mind of its carrier a telepathic matrix formed by combining the conscious thought frequencies with nerve signals picked up from the speech centres of the brain which has supplied them. The practical upshot of all this is that if you stick a Babel fish in your ear you can instantly understand anything said to you in any form of language. The speech patterns you actually hear decode the brainwave matrix which has been fed into your mind by your Babel fish.

"Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mindboggingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as the final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God.

"The argument goes something like this: `I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, `for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.'

"`But,' says Man, `The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED.'

"`Oh dear,' says God, `I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly vanished in a puff of logic."

That just about does it.

And speaking of Hell, I think it is a tool of fear to try to convert people to your religion. IF there does exist a Hell, I would rather go to it than worship such a vile God. A God of hate, who says to kill children, rape virgins, oppress women, etc.

 

[Daretothink]

Only sheep need a shepherd.

 

[fm107]

Sheep do need a shepherd, our shepherd is Jesus. He takes care of us.

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God could appear so everyone can see him and so that all can believe in him.

But God won't do that and there is a reason for it.

God wants people to search for him, he wants people to want to know him. He wants people to love him because they want to. God will not force people to love him. And he will not force people to obey him either. He wants us to obey him because we want to.

Have you ever tried searching for God? Have you ever tried talking to God? After all if God is real, he can surely hear you? I charge you to try saying a short prayer to God, ask him to give you faith and to show himself to you.

As I said, he will not drop out of the sky but he can make things happen in your life which if you are willing to accept was his divine working. Too many people put this down to coincidence, but for a Christian there is no such thing.

God has provided plenty evidence through creation for his existence. But too many people don't want to find God. The question is do you? Do you want to know him?

Luke 11:10
For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Psalm 19:1-4
The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they display knowledge.
There is no speech or language
where their voice is not heard.
Their voice goes out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.

 

[Vatis]

God could appear so everyone can see him and so that all can believe in him.

But God won't do that and there is a reason for it.

God wants people to search for him, he wants people to want to know him. He wants people to love him because they want to. God will not force people to love him. And he will not force people to obey him either. He wants us to obey him because we want to.

OK, God doesn't force you to believe, but if you don't belive, you will live an eternal painfilled life in hell? But God doesn't show himself, because he doesn't want people to be forced to believe? Thus, he purposely does not prevent people from going to hell, so he wants people to go to hell. That doesn't sound very loving to me.

This kind of reminds me about the persecution of Galilei, the inquisition told him that naturally he can keep his beliefs (about the heliocentric solar system, you know the one), but then they would torture and kill him.

I think every Atheist in the world would instantly and unconditionally accept a diety if there was undeniable evidence for it's existence.

 

[fm107]

God has shown himself to men. Jesus came and lived on earth for over roughly 33 years and many did not believe in him though he is God. Despite all the miracles he did...rising people from the dead, making the lame walk, the blind see and the sick well they still refused to believe in him.

What did happen to him? They crucified him!

So the point is, that seeing God doesn't convince people either.

Luke 16:19-31
“There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
“Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
“‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

 

[solarwave]

Daretothink and Vatis:

Would proof of existance actually help? Im not saying there is no reason to believe, but the type of reason you want.

God wants people to follow Him and have a relationship with Him. Would knowing God was real mean people would follow Him? To be honest I doubt that. Belief in God doesn't = heaven. If you assume demons are real they believe in God but are not saved because althought they know of God they turn against Him because of pride.

So then the problem may be pride. Maybe God asks for faith because faith needs humility (by the way I don't call faith belief without evidence when I use the word). I think one good reason why God doesn't make Himself known to all is because it wouldn't make a massive difference, people would still do their own thing.

So then to know God one must say 'God tell me if you exist and prove it in your own way' instead of 'prove to me you exist in this way or that way otherwise I wont believe'. Do you see the difference in mind set. God will prove Himself in a way right for you, but maybe in a way different from how you expect.

Sorry that probably sounds very preachy, but I just wanted to come at it from another angle. Of course I could be wrong above. Its just my latest theory on salvation, I still have alot to learn.

By the way I don't understand the bit about the Babel fish proving the no existance of God? Explain?

 

[solarwave]

Hell has to be real if Heaven is real. They are two sides of the same coin, how can you have one but not the other?

Life and death are two sides of the same coin, how can you have one without the other. Heaven is eternal life so hell must be eternal death, annihilation. If the gift of God is eternal life then those without that gift wont have life, therefore non-existance.

Im not saying that is what I believe; its just a copy of your argument above.

Anyway I dont want to convince you hell isn't real.

That's right he will my friend, he most certainly will.

Bare in mind though, we are not all his sheep.

John 10:26-30
but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”

I don't think that means people are stuck as sheep or goats forever. People can become sheep by listening to Jesus' voice.

 

[Vatis]

Daretothink and Vatis:

Would proof of existance actually help? Im not saying there is no reason to believe, but the type of reason you want.

God wants people to follow Him and have a relationship with Him. Would knowing God was real mean people would follow Him? To be honest I doubt that. Belief in God doesn't = heaven. If you assume demons are real they believe in God but are not saved because althought they know of God they turn against Him because of pride.

So then the problem may be pride. Maybe God asks for faith because faith needs humility (by the way I don't call faith belief without evidence when I use the word). I think one good reason why God doesn't make Himself known to all is because it wouldn't make a massive difference, people would still do their own thing.

So then to know God one must say 'God tell me if you exist and prove it in your own way' instead of 'prove to me you exist in this way or that way otherwise I wont believe'. Do you see the difference in mind set. God will prove Himself in a way right for you, but maybe in a way different from how you expect.

Sorry that probably sounds very preachy, but I just wanted to come at it from another angle. Of course I could be wrong above. Its just my latest theory on salvation, I still have alot to learn.

By the way I don't understand the bit about the Babel fish proving the no existance of God? Explain?

Well I think this varies from person to person. There are people which can accept and worship something through faith alone, others however need empirical observations and explanations.
Now to me it would just seem incresibly unfair if God makes people think that way, if he knows they will be going to hell.
I think there are people to whom a "spiritual epiphany" or whatnot just isn't enough evidence for such a meaningful choice, the choice of religion.
You can't really blame them for thinking that way now, can you?

 

[fm107]

These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

And again...

Jude 1:13
They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

As you can see, what your thinking of in regards to Hell goes against a great multitude of scripture and makes them totally meaningless.

It's a direct contradiction to God's word to say there's no such place as Hell.

Again, why would Jesus have came and suffered soo much and die, to save us from what? Hell!

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There are the sheep which have been found and those who are yet to be found - they are lost sheep. There are also goats who never accepted God. When the end comes, all the lost sheep will have been found and there will just be the believers and non-believers i.e. the sheep and the goats and the two shall be separated.

Matthew 25:32
All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

 

[solarwave]

Well I think this varies from person to person. There are people which can accept and worship something through faith alone, others however need empirical observations and explanations.
Now to me it would just seem incresibly unfair if God makes people think that way, if he knows they will be going to hell.
I think there are people to whom a "spiritual epiphany" or whatnot just isn't enough evidence for such a meaningful choice, the choice of religion.
You can't really blame them for thinking that way now, can you?

It depends what you call faith. All I am saying is that God will give someone what they need to believe if they genuinely have an open heart (not simply trying to justify their indepenance of God).

I can't blame them for wanting a reason to believe, but I think I can blame them for putting limits on God as to what reasons would persuade them. They may think something may not that actually might.

fm107: Fair enough. I just need time to figure this stuff out.

So are you saying that is it impossible for certain people to be saved?

 

[fm107]

God has given everyone an opportunity to be saved, in fact countless opportunities. Everyday is another preaching from God because as I have quoted before, creation preaches that there is a God.

Psalm 19:1-4
The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they display knowledge.
There is no speech or language
where their voice is not heard.
Their voice goes out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.

Think about the man who will most likely suffer most in Hell - Judas who betrayed him. Think about the opportunities God gave him! He lived, ate and drank with Jesus!

There will be a day when Jesus returns to judge the people of this world. But look at what God says about why he is not rushing to return but will come soon:

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Not everyone will come to repentance but it is God's desire for all men to repent of their sins and be saved.

 

[GoingUnder]

No I don't.

 

[solarwave]

<staff edit>

There have been various theories about the crucifixcion and not all require hell to be real. Either way Christ's death expresses great love.

I think some people have opposed the traditional idea of heaven. I don't even know what the traditional idea of heaven is. Is it a spaceless love with God? Is it the New Creation (which most people forget about it seems)? Is heaven physical or is it just lights and sounds? And those are just the more 'normal' ideas.

So for evil, sin and the devil to be real there must be a place or eternal living pain? I disagree.​

 

[fm107]

Let me put it like this...

A murderer appears before a court. He is judged guilty and is punished for his crimes.

In the same way a sinner who rejected God's son, (the substitute for sinners) appears before God. He is judged guilty, he is likewise punished for his sins (because he has no substitute).

Is it that hard to believe?

What if all the courts in the land just let all the murderers go free without punishment? Would that be just?

Of course not!

Likewise, sinners will be judged and punished! If they are not punished, how could God be just?

 

[obamazmama]

Yes, i believe hell is real. I saw this one person in the news that was confirmed clinically dead and when the doctors finally brought his heart pumping he was screaming that he saw demons and he was tortured in hell.

And since I'm such a horrible sinner, I believe i deserve to go there but Jesus saved me becuase He loves me.

 

[solarwave]

i dunno