Do you pray to any physically dead Christian or only those designated as "Saints"?

[christianmomof3]

The Bible says that God is not a respector of persons.

 

[Thekla]

yes; but were Lazarus and the rich man equally well-pleasing to God ?

if the "prayer of the righteous, energized, is effective", then what of the prayer of those who are not ?

 

[christianmomof3]

yes; but were Lazarus and the rich man equally well-pleasing to God ?

if the "prayer of the righteous, energized, is effective", then what of the prayer of those who are not ?

Lazarus had a heart for God and the rich man did not.
God judges us by our heart and only He knows our hearts.
James' verses about the prayers of the righteous and about righteousness were to encourage us all to become more righteous. James never said that dead people are more righteous than living people.

 

[Thekla]

Lazarus had a heart for God and the rich man did not.
God judges us by our heart and only He knows our hearts.
James' verses about the prayers of the righteous and about righteousness were to encourage us all to become more righteous. James never said that dead people are more righteous than living people.

just curious - perhaps you did not see my earlier response to your question ?

at any rate, it is truly Christ who is the only judge; in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, it is clear that there are some who are more well-pleasing to God than others. "He is no respecter of persons", IIRC, refers to ones' position in society.

and (at least in the Greek) it is clear that the prayer of the righteous is "energized" (a reference to the energia of God); in other words, it is God who makes all possible, even the answering of a prayer. If one believes, as Paul says, that all is recapitulated in Christ, that koinonia is in Christ through the Holy Spirit, then to ask anyone who is in Him for their prayers does not seems so odd.

 

[Captivated]

I'm curious, has the Catholic Church ever canonised a non-Catholic?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Of course not. The Catholic Church has always taught and believed that there is no salvation outside of the Church, so that it is impossible for a non-Catholic to be a saint. Although current Church teaching has been moderated to state that non-Catholics are saved (typically because they are baptized with a trinitarian formula) they are quick to affirm that the "fullness" of salvation is the exclusive property of the Catholic Church.

 

[Macarius]

Of course not. The Catholic Church has always taught and believed that there is no salvation outside of the Church, so that it is impossible for a non-Catholic to be a saint. Although current Church teaching has been moderated to state that non-Catholics are saved (typically because they are baptized with a trinitarian formula) they are quick to affirm that the "fullness" of salvation is the exclusive property of the Catholic Church.

I can't speak for the Catholic Church, but for the Orthodox Church we affirm that there are saints outside our visible communion - we just don't speculate on who they might or might not be. We do affirm that outside the Church there is no salvation, but only Christ knows who is in Him, and though He gave us baptism and communion to graft us onto the vine, ultimately HE is the vine and may graft anyone He pleases to by whatever means HE pleases to onto Himself.

So we remain agnostic to saints outside our communion, neither affirming nor denying them. We do celebrate the feast of all-saints, though, specifically to honor the massive number of unknown saints (often thought to vastly outnumber the known ones).

 

[Tdigaetano]

I can't speak for the Catholic Church, but for the Orthodox Church we affirm that there are saints outside our visible communion - we just don't speculate on who they might or might not be. We do affirm that outside the Church there is no salvation, but only Christ knows who is in Him, and though He gave us baptism and communion to graft us onto the vine, ultimately HE is the vine and may graft anyone He pleases to by whatever means HE pleases to onto Himself.

So we remain agnostic to saints outside our communion, neither affirming nor denying them. We do celebrate the feast of all-saints, though, specifically to honor the massive number of unknown saints (often thought to vastly outnumber the known ones).

Well Put!

 

[lionroar0]

I can't speak for the Catholic Church, but for the Orthodox Church we affirm that there are saints outside our visible communion - we just don't speculate on who they might or might not be. We do affirm that outside the Church there is no salvation, but only Christ knows who is in Him, and though He gave us baptism and communion to graft us onto the vine, ultimately HE is the vine and may graft anyone He pleases to by whatever means HE pleases to onto Himself.

So we remain agnostic to saints outside our communion, neither affirming nor denying them. We do celebrate the feast of all-saints, though, specifically to honor the massive number of unknown saints (often thought to vastly outnumber the known ones).

This is the same as the CC as far as I know.

Peace

 

[christianmomof3]

An incredibly dear sister in Christ who met with my church died this past week. She was 92 years old and was a prayer warrior. She prayed for everyone and she loved everyone with the Love of the Lord and we all knew it. She was a Catholic for about the first 60 years of her life and then became a born again Christian and was a saint for the last 32 years of her life. All of us who knew her are certain that she is with the Lord now and is still praying for us.
We see her as a marvelous example of what it is to live Christ and to express His love to others and we would like to immitate that Christ in her and also be those who love the Lord the way she did and who love others with His love the way she did.

Many people asked her to pray for them and to pray with them when she was alive. She had prayer lists and prayed for hours on end. She prayed to God - not to "Saints" for the last 32 or so years of her life.
She said that God always answered her prayers.
He either answered "yes", "no", or "wait".
I like that.
So often we don't want to accept "no" or "wait" as an answer from the Lord.
How wonderful it is to love and know the Lord well enough to be able to recognize and accept when His answer is "no" or "wait" as well as to enjoy His "yes"s.

People said that they knew that when she was praying for something, it was taken care of.
But, we are not planning to pray to her now that she is dead to ask her to pray for our needs. I think she may still be doing that, but I do not think that the Lord ever intended for us to try to contact dead people for any reason. We are still one with this dear sister in the Lord and one day - either when we join her in the Lord or when the Lord returns, we will enjoy being with her again. But for now, we should follow her example and pray to the Lord and love the Lord and express His love to others.

 

[Macarius]

An incredibly dear sister in Christ who met with my church died this past week. She was 92 years old and was a prayer warrior. She prayed for everyone and she loved everyone with the Love of the Lord and we all knew it. She was a Catholic for about the first 60 years of her life and then became a born again Christian and was a saint for the last 32 years of her life. All of us who knew her are certain that she is with the Lord now and is still praying for us.
We see her as a marvelous example of what it is to live Christ and to express His love to others and we would like to immitate that Christ in her and also be those who love the Lord the way she did and who love others with His love the way she did.

Before anything else is said, I think it necessary to thank our Lord for investing her with His love and grace. She sounds like a saint.

There is a bit of a sidewise slap at the RCC there saying that she was a saint for the last 32 years of her life after 60 years in the RCC. Perhaps she was a nominal Catholic, and only became pious after converting to evangelicalism, but if she was a pious catholic who became a pious protestant than credit should be given where it is due - the RCC taught her faith in Christ.

It would be like me saying I only started knowing Christ after becoming Orthodox. That wouldn't be true. I learned the basic piety of my faith from my parents and my protestant church, and I have, because of that, a debt to them I cannot repay. I have grown 10x closer to God through Orthodoxy... eh, I think the point is made.

Many people asked her to pray for them and to pray with them when she was alive. She had prayer lists and prayed for hours on end. She prayed to God - not to "Saints" for the last 32 or so years of her life.
She said that God always answered her prayers.
He either answered "yes", "no", or "wait".

So you like the idea of this saint praying for you, but not the saints in heaven?

We seem to have very similar ideas about what saints are and what they do - they aren't demi-gods on olympus or anything... they're just Christians. The problem is, as we both know, that TRUE Christians are few and far between. And yes, when they pray, God answers. He answers with His will, as God always must. That's why our first prayer is "God, Thy Will be done."

This also seems to present the situation as an either / or. As if praying to God precludes asking a departed saint for their prayers or vice-versa (praying to a saint precluding praying to God). I don't see them as being in opposition any more than typing on an internet forum stops me from praying to God. I'm talking to you (well, writing), but that doesn't mean I can't then go and pray to God. I can (theoretically) talk to a saint, but that doesn't mean I can't go pray to God.

So often we don't want to accept "no" or "wait" as an answer from the Lord.

Amen. A major theme of the spirituality of my Church is to accept the Lord's providence, no matter what. To say "thank you" to God for ALL things. To pray for His will - not ours - to be done, and in faith to trust that His will IS done. All things work together for good for those who love the Lord and are called according to His purpose.

Check out "Glory to God For All Things" (google it). It's a prayer written a few days before the author was martyred in a concentration camp. He knew he was going to die, and the last thing he wrote was as deep a prayer of thanksgiving as I've ever seen.

How wonderful it is to love and know the Lord well enough to be able to recognize and accept when His answer is "no" or "wait" as well as to enjoy His "yes"s.

Amen. May God have mercy on me and grant me that wisdom as well.

People said that they knew that when she was praying for something, it was taken care of.

Still sounds like a saint to me.

And we know the saints in heaven pray for us (Rev shows it). The question is only whether it is appropriate to ask them to pray for us.

But, we are not planning to pray to her now that she is dead to ask her to pray for our needs.

I'm sorry to hear that, but of course that is your decision.

I think she may still be doing that,

I cannot imagine her love for the Church diminishing once she is with her Lord. The way we express our unity in Christ and our love for one another is through prayer.

but I do not think that the Lord ever intended for us to try to contact dead people for any reason.

She is not dead! That is the good news! She lives in Christ. Take hope in that. Yes - it is a terrible thing that the soul should be separate from the body, for that was never meant to happen. But those who respose in Christ merely sleep. They live on in the Lord, for Christ God has ENTERED death and FILLED it with His presence. Death is now communion with God for those with faith. She is with Christ, and and He is life. She lives in Him.

We are still one with this dear sister in the Lord

Amen.

and one day - either when we join her in the Lord or when the Lord returns, we will enjoy being with her again.

In person. In Christ, you are still together. She is one of the cloud of witnesses surrounding you.

But for now, we should follow her example and pray to the Lord and love the Lord and express His love to others.

Yes. But should we not also follow the example of those saintly men and women who, recognizing the essential one-ness of the Body of Christ also asked the departed saints for their prayers? I can show you them - they are many.

You are in Christ. It sounds like this woman is in Christ. You are both in Christ - Christ is one. So you are one. "May they be one, Father, as You are in Me and I am in You." Christ is not divided. She lives in Christ. You live in Christ. You live together in Christ. You don't have to, but if you want to, you can ask her to pray for you. You can pray to Christ for her; not that either prayer will likely "DO" anything - but that misses the point. Prayers are not about accomplishing some goal. They are about love. You clearly love her. She clearly loved her Church. Pray to Christ for her, even as she prays for you, and ask for her intercessions. The only barrier is a physical one - and God can easily overcome that.

We pray to the saints because so many saints have shown us that example, because of our love for the saints, because of their love for us, because of our belief in the essential oneness of Christ and the conquest of death by our Lord on the cross and the tomb and the resurrection...

Thank you for sharing this story, though. Her example of love and prayer is wonderful. This is exactly why I like reading about the saints - they encourage and inspire US to be more Christ-like.

In Christ,
Macarius

 

[christianmomof3]

There is a bit of a sidewise slap at the RCC there saying that she was a saint for the last 32 years of her life after 60 years in the RCC. Perhaps she was a nominal Catholic, and only became pious after converting to evangelicalism, but if she was a pious catholic who became a pious protestant than credit should be given where it is due - the RCC taught her faith in Christ.

It would be like me saying I only started knowing Christ after becoming Orthodox. That wouldn't be true. I learned the basic piety of my faith from my parents and my protestant church, and I have, because of that, a debt to them I cannot repay. I have grown 10x closer to God through Orthodoxy... eh, I think the point is made.

It is not meant as a sideways slap at the RCC. After becoming a born again Christian, she changed dramatically. She gave up her fomer manner of life and many worldly things that she had done and enjoyed and devoted herself fully to loving the Lord and the saints. So, before becoming born again, she was, what you would call a nominal Catholic, and after being born again, she was a new creation living Christ and loving Christ and expressing His love to others.

 

[Macarius]

Ok - well, if she was only nominally Catholic than what you said makes sense.

I didn't intend to offend you, but occasionally (more than occasionally) on these forums I run into this idea that Roman Catholics cannot be genuine Christians and I wasn't sure if you were expressing that idea.

Since you weren't, no big deal. Sorry again if I offended you.

In Christ,
Macarius

 

[bbbbbbb]

This is the same as the CC as far as I know.

Peace

The question was, "Has the Catholic Church ever canonized a non-Catholic." The answer is no. Although the EOC and the RCC may, indeed, believe there are non-canonized saints and perhaps some of these may not have been members of their respective denominations, neither communion has canonized (recognized officially) anyone who was not a member.

 

[Macarius]

The question was, "Has the Catholic Church ever canonized a non-Catholic." The answer is no. Although the EOC and the RCC may, indeed, believe there are non-canonized saints and perhaps some of these may not have been members of their respective denominations, neither communion has canonized (recognized officially) anyone who was not a member.

That is 100% accurate. If the question is "Has the EOC or RCC officially cannonized any non-member as a saint?" the answer is no.

If the question (as I took its intent; I was probably wrong on this) is "Does the EOC or RCC recognize that non-members can be saints?" the answer is "yes - but we don't speculate on who."

Thank you for clarifying - sorry if my answer muddied things up.

In Christ,
Macarius

 

[Rhamiel]

christianmomofthree, good thread, I only ask saints to pray for me, but I know some people who ask their friends who have passed on to pray for them

 

[zon3d]

Any Christian is a saint.

 

[Macarius]

Let me know if you ever meet one about whom you are so confident (knowing their innermost heart and soul) that you could rightly judge that they MUST be in heaven.

We agree that all Christians are saints; the question is whom do we DARE apply that label to? I don't deserve the name of Christian; rare are those who, by the quality of their life and the gifts of the Holy Spirit, demonstrate that they do...

 

[chilehed]

Just wondering. If you think all physically dead Christians are somewhere waiting for living Christians to pray to them so they can pass on the message, do you only pray to the ones whom your church has designated as capital "S" "Saints" or do you just pray to anyone who was a Christian when they were alive who you feel like praying to?
thank you.

Many responses, but so far I don't see an actual answer to your question.

Notice that part of the process by which the Church recognises that someone is in heaven, is that there must have been two miracles associated with prayers requesting that person's intercession. Thus, by definition the candidate for canonization must have been prayed to before they wre canonized.

So the answer is yes, we may pray for the intercession of people who we think are in heaven, even before the Church has confirmed that they are. If we didn't do so, there could be no more canonizations under current Church law.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Let me know if you ever meet one about whom you are so confident (knowing their innermost heart and soul) that you could rightly judge that they MUST be in heaven.

We agree that all Christians are saints; the question is whom do we DARE apply that label to? I don't deserve the name of Christian; rare are those who, by the quality of their life and the gifts of the Holy Spirit, demonstrate that they do...

You seem to believe in two types of saints - Christians and saintly Christians (for lack of a better term). The reality is that not a single individual apart from Jesus Christ have ever demonstrated by the quality of their life and gifts of the Holy Spirit that they are a saint. Psalms 14 and 53, which are reiterated in Romans 3:1-15 clearly state that there is not a single person who is good or capable of doing or being good. Apart from the justification given by God through faith in Christ Jesus there could be no saints. Saints are not sinless (I John 1:8-10), but are justified through faith in Jesus Christ. It is Christ who makes a saint, not the individual, nor a church declaring it to be so.

If you are hoping and trusting that your saintliness will make you a saint, then you are sadly deceived.