Do you pray to any physically dead Christian or only those designated as "Saints"?

[christianmomof3]

Just wondering. If you think all physically dead Christians are somewhere waiting for living Christians to pray to them so they can pass on the message, do you only pray to the ones whom your church has designated as capital "S" "Saints" or do you just pray to anyone who was a Christian when they were alive who you feel like praying to?
thank you.

 

[Thekla]

Just wondering. If you think all physically dead Christians are somewhere waiting for living Christians to pray to them so they can pass on the message

this does not represent an EO view of those who are with Christ; I cannot answer for RC, though.

also, as discussed, we ask others to pray for us (paraklesis) which is unlike the modern notion of pray

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I ask the Saints only to pray for me, because I believe they are in heaven. Since I am not God, I can't say if other Christian who died went to heaven, or purgatory, or even hell. I pray for my dead relatives, I don't ask them for prayer.

btw, I don't pray to the Saints, I ask them for prayers because they are in the presence of God, and "the prayer of a righteous man avails much" ...they are definitely righteous in heaven...and free from sin, and the influence of the enemy.

God bless

monica

 

[NoDoubt]

I ask the Saints only to pray for me, because I believe they are in heaven. Since I am not God, I can't say if other Christian who died went to heaven, or purgatory, or even hell. I pray for my dead relatives, I don't ask them for prayer.
btw, I don't pray to the Saints, I ask them for prayers because they are in the presence of God, and "the prayer of a righteous man avails much" ...they are definitely righteous in heaven...and free from sin, and the influence of the enemy.

God bless

monica

But who is to say who is in heaven? They might not even be there! Who knows but God what was in their hearts? You might be just talking to air. I don't understand how someone can decide "I now declare this person a saint. You are now allowed to contact him/her."

And I don't believe you can pray for people after they have died. Their fate is sealed. What is there to pray for?

God Bless you too.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Well the reason I pray for my dead relatives is because I believe in purgatory I don't know where they are, heaven, hell, or purgatory... but if it's purgatory, it seems fitting to me to pray for them.

To answer your other question...all the people who were declared Saints were faithful followers of Christ, and their lives were carefully examined before they were canonized. They were supposed to demonstate "heroic virtue", faith, love, fruits of the Spirit, etc. It seems fair to assume that a Christian who glorified God in their life went to heaven, not hell. The Saints achieved a higher level of sanctification than most others.

In addition, in the Catholic church, in order to be declared a Saint one must have the miracles:

"6. For canonization another miracle is needed, attributed to the intercession of the Blessed and having occurred after his beatification. The methods for ascertainment of the affirmed miracle are the same as those followed for beatification. Canonization is understood as the concession of public worship in the Universal Church. Pontifical infallibility is involved. With canonization, the Blessed acquires the title of Saint."

http://www.catholic-pages.com/saints/process.asp

There are Saints who people ask for prayers, and are then healed, etc. This suggests that the Saint is indeed in heaven and heard the prayer

hope that helps.

Peace
monica

 

[christianmomof3]

this does not represent an EO view of those who are with Christ; I cannot answer for RC, though.

also, as discussed, we ask others to pray for us (paraklesis) which is unlike the modern notion of pray

So, what is your EO view of those who are with Christ?
I do realize that you have a different meaning of the word pray, but I am not sure if that makes a difference.

To me, and many others, prayer is contacting God. It is using our human spirit to contact the Holy Spirit. John 4:24 tells us that God is Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit. I suppose that all prayer may not be considered worship. But, it is still contacting God who is Spirit and we can only contact Him with our human spirit.

Therefore the concept of praying to dead people even if you are not worshipping them involves contacting them in some way.
It means that you believe that you can contact them and that they can be contacted.
How do you think you contact them? Do you think that you use your human spirit? Do you think you use your mind? How do you think that you are able to contact physically dead people?
And, also, how do you think they are able to be contacted?
Through what means?
Do you think that they are omnipresent and able to "hear" the prayers of tons of people at the same time and "pass them on to God"?
How do you think all that works?

Do EO only "pray" to those that the EO considers to be "Saints" or to any dead Christian who you think is in heaven?

 

[NoDoubt]

To answer your other question...all the people who were declared Saints were faithful followers of Christ, and their lives were carefully examined before they were canonized. They were supposed to demonstate "heroic virtue", faith, love, fruits of the Spirit, etc. It seems fair to assume that a Christian who glorified God in their life went to heaven, not hell. The Saints achieved a higher level of sanctification than most others.

In addition, in the Catholic church, in order to be declared a Saint one must have the miracles:

http://www.catholic-pages.com/saints/process.asp

There are Saints who people ask for prayers, and are then healed, etc. This suggests that the Saint is indeed in heaven and heard the prayer

hope that helps.

Peace
monica

But there's no such thing as "being declared a saint". Who has the authority to say "I declare that his person who has died has become a saint now"....

Saints are here! Not in the grave! It creeps me out...

edit to add: why are these people declared "saints" by their works? Why is Catholicism so focused on works? It really bothers me how someone can look back on somebody else's life and their works and scrutinize and decide that this person is a saint. Only God decides! How presumptuous of them!


Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

 

[NoDoubt]

Therefore the concept of praying to dead people even if you are not worshipping them involves contacting them in some way.
It means that you believe that you can contact them and that they can be contacted.
How do you think you contact them? Do you think that you use your human spirit? Do you think you use your mind? How do you think that you are able to contact physically dead people?
And, also, how do you think they are able to be contacted?
Through what means?
Do you think that they are omnipresent and able to "hear" the prayers of tons of people at the same time and "pass them on to God"?
How do you think all that works?

Telepathy? Divination? ESP? Chanelling?

 

[Thekla]

So, what is your EO view of those who are with Christ?

they dwell in Christ through the Holy Spirit.
All Christians are "in communion/koinonia/community" in Christ through the Holy Spirit.

I do realize that you have a different meaning of the word pray, but I am not sure if that makes a difference.

To me, and many others, prayer is contacting God. It is using our human spirit to contact the Holy Spirit. John 4:24 tells us that God is Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit. I suppose that all prayer may not be considered worship. But, it is still contacting God who is Spirit and we can only contact Him with our human spirit.

our use of the term (in English) pray includes but is not limited to your use. And worship as well as prayer include the "way in which one lives"; God knows us and created us as a "being" - and our being includes the body, the soul, the spirit and any other terms that can be used to describe aspects of the human being. So, anything which is done in Him is, in a sense both prayer and worship.

also, we understand that when we pray (either alone or with others, ie in the Liturgy) we join our prayer with the prayers/worship of the entire koinonia/ body of Christ.

finally, we ask others for their prayers (paraklesis); this is an expression of the victory of Christ and also koinonia

Therefore the concept of praying to dead people even if you are not worshipping them involves contacting them in some way.
It means that you believe that you can contact them and that they can be contacted.

we are already in koinonia with them; the body of Christ is not divided.
we are in koinonia through the Holy Spirit. and in this sense, asking the Saints for their prayers is testimony to the Holy Spirit and the Trinity.

How do you think you contact them?

in the Holy Spirit

Do you think that you use your human spirit? Do you think you use your mind? How do you think that you are able to contact physically dead people?
And, also, how do you think they are able to be contacted?
Through what means?

the terms spirit/mind, etc refer to aspects of the human being. And the term mind has a different meaning in EO -- so in this sense, do you mean by mind brain or (to use the NT term) nous ?

Do you think that they are omnipresent and able to "hear" the prayers of tons of people at the same time and "pass them on to God"?
How do you think all that works?

I think we are united in the Holy Spirit.

Do EO only "pray" to those that the EO considers to be "Saints" or to any dead Christian who you think is in heaven?

if one ("potential Saint") has not yet been recognized, then one can say
" (name) if you have been found well pleasing to God,please pray to God for (name)"

 

[MoNiCa4316]

btw to Catholics, like the Orthodox, "pray" does not mean "worship".

But there's no such thing as "being declared a saint". Who has the authority to say "I declare that his person who has died has become a saint now"....

The Church

btw, the Church does not declare saints, but Saints. All Christians, on earth and in heaven, are saints.

Saints are here! Not in the grave! It creeps me out...

wow you're saying that saints are only on earth, not in heaven?

but..the Church is both on earth and in heaven. Therefore, so are the saints. One does not stop being in the Church once they die! to say that, is to say that one stops being in the Body of Christ after death, and thus becomes separated from the Lord (the Head of the Body)... when the opposite is true; we are all one in Him, and those in heaven are alive not dead.. we are surrounded by the 'cloud of witnesses'.

Telepathy? Divination? ESP? Chanelling?

God makes it possible...the Holy Spirit... it's NOT divination, channeling, etc, those things are evil.

Peace

monica

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I agree with Thekla

 

[NoDoubt]

wow you're saying that saints are only on earth, not in heaven?

Are you questioning my faith as a Christian or my intelligence? Saints are not suddenly made saints in heaven! Saints become saints on earth! Nobody has the right to say "I'm now declaring that this person has become a saint". NOBODY! How presumptuous of them! God decides, not man.

Edit to add: Who else but saints are in heaven? Nothing unholy is in heaven.

 

[NoDoubt]

I agree with Thekla

I agree with GOD

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Yes! Saints are not suddenly made saints in heaven! Saints become saints on earth! Nobody has the right to say "I'm now declaring that this person has become a saint". NOBODY! How presumptuous of them! God decides, not man.

ah you're still not getting it sis..

yes people become saints on earth and stay saints when they get to heaven..yup

but.. the Church does NOT declare who is a saint... God indeed decides that.. but the Church does declare Saints - that is something else!! (with the capital letter) those are just people who have achieved a high level of sanctification on earth and we can ask them for their intercession.

saint and Saint are not interchangeable terms !

I agree with GOD

how do you know what God thinks?

 

[NoDoubt]

ah you're still not getting it sis..

yes people become saints on earth and stay saints when they get to heaven..yup

but.. the Church does NOT declare who is a saint... God indeed decides that.. but the Church does declare Saints - that is something else!! (with the capital letter) those are just people who have achieved a high level of sanctification on earth and we can ask them for their intercession.

saint and Saint are not interchangeable terms !



how do you know what God thinks?

Go look up...I edited my post. I read too quickly. There ain't no Saints...people are people. I don't elevate people like that. We are all on the same level.

 

[NoDoubt]

how do you know what God thinks?

He revealed it to us in His word. It's called the Bible.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Go look up...I edited my post. I read too quickly. There ain't no Saints...people are people. I don't elevate people like that. We are all on the same level.

all people are loved equally by God and all who are in heaven are saints (with the small letter).. but as CS Lewis said if there's equality it's in God's love, not in us. I wouldn't ever say that I'm spiritually equal to ..St. Paul, for example.. there are people who have glorified God on earth more than others. And I'm definitely not equal to the Virgin Mary, who God chose to bear His Son!! And not only did He choose her, but she said 'yes'!

Anyway, when the Church declares Saints, that's not to say that "they're better". It's simply to provide us with examples of how we should live these are Christians who have served God with all they had. And when we read about them, we are inspired to also live fully for Him. (see, it all points back to God in the end =) He is glorified in His saints)

For example..one of my favourite Saints is St. Faustina. I read her diary sometimes.. and when I do, I see a sister in Christ who loved and trusted God with her whole heart, and who didn't live for the world. I am sometimes tempted to be worldly, and just remembering St Faustina who lived for Jesus, helps me overcome this temptation. Reading about her reminds me that there are people who are serving God, and I feel less lonely in my 'journey'. It actually helps me be a stronger Christian. And if she wasn't canonized by Pope John Paul II..I'd never have even heard of her!! You see, the Saints are mostly declared for practical reasons..

As it says in the Bible:

Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.

Remembering the Saints helps me "run with perseverence". I know that because they faithfully served God, they are now with Him in heaven. And I think - if I follow Him faithfully, I'll live with Him too one day. So that encourages me.

Also, sometimes I ask them to pray for me, because - simply, I need it. Those in heaven see in how much darkness we live, and how there are demons everywhere, trying to destroy us. Because they (the saints in heaven) are filled with God's love...they love us here on earth, and want to help us somehow. They know the joy of being with Jesus and want us to experience that too. (I don't think I would stop caring about my family - both my natural and my spiritual family - in heaven!). So because of that, they pray to God for us !!

Sometimes I feel very weak spiritually and it helps me to know that my Family in heaven is praying for me.. we are all one in Christ.. it is just like your Christian friends on earth praying for you only even better, because the saints in heaven no longer struggle with sin, and are in the presence of God.

Jesus has conquered death and He is always with us...the Holy Spirit intercedes for us...God loves us infinitely..and the saints in heaven, filled with His love, are praying for us to the Father. Angels are assigned to us to watch over us. We worship Him together with all of heaven, and He comes to us physically in the Eucharist. And we are all united by the Holy Spirit - the Church is not just us, it is also the Virgin Mary, and the Apostles, and the Martyrs... these are all reasons why the Church is victorious!

the communion of saints is a testimony to God's glory and the glory of the Resurrection..

just my two cents

He revealed it to us in His word. It's called the Bible.

the Bible supports what I have said above..

 

[E.C.]

But who is to say who is in heaven? They might not even be there!

Faith and optimism.

He revealed it to us in His word. It's called the Bible.

Did everything stop with the Bible? Is it all limited to solely the Bible?

 

[MamaZ]

ah you're still not getting it sis..

yes people become saints on earth and stay saints when they get to heaven..yup

but.. the Church does NOT declare who is a saint... God indeed decides that.. but the Church does declare Saints - that is something else!! (with the capital letter) those are just people who have achieved a high level of sanctification on earth and we can ask them for their intercession.

saint and Saint are not interchangeable terms !



how do you know what God thinks?

Where in the written scripture do we see saints and Saints? This must be an add on somewhere... For we are all saints.. There is no comparison in scripture to one being better than the other because of the life they have led.. Paul says it best.. It is no longer I that live but Christ in me... So therefore if it is Christ in them then should we not vererate the true one? Christ?

 

[MamaZ]

God Chose Peter also.. He said yes. God chose me and I said yes.. To what degree of yes do you put for speciality?