Do you have to be a good servant to be saved?

[Daniel C]

Here is scripture that says that elect can fall away. God bless!

Matthew 24:24
For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

My Bible translation makes it clear that if it were possible the beast would even lead the saved away,but he can't.

''For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.''

 

[Daniel C]

What do you mean when Jesus speaks plainly? Which verse are you referring to?

like,all of the non-parable verses I quote,like john 3:16.

 

[zoidar]

My Bible translation makes it clear that if it were possible the beast would even lead the saved away,but he can't.

''For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.''

I don't get what the point would be to warn the elect from false prophets only to say that they can't fall away. Then the elects wouldn't have to be warned, would they?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

"that were" is not in the Greek. That was my point.

Seek Yahuweh's Meaning, that is my point.

Yet even in English, as already posted:

Sorry, no.
While all Scripture shows clearly the risk believers have daily of falling away and being left without repentance any more,

this Scripture does not say that the elect can fall away.

 

[Daniel C]

And I don’t understand what you mean about my reference to the goats.

You use these parables to base your doctrine off of, claiming Jesus meant them word for word verbatim. When I ask if Jesus is a Vine and we are Goats I think it becomes clear a parable isn't a literal teaching.

 

[Daniel C]

That's ridiculous in context. He's specifically talking about believers In this passage, do you want me to think he suddenly switches to speaking of people that were never saved, and then switches back to believers again for the rest of the passage?

I don't think Jesus is a vine. Do you?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I don't get what the point would be to warn the elect from false prophets only to say that they can't fall away. Then the elects wouldn't have to be warned, would they?

Military persons visiting Mexico are often warned about the danger of eating unwashed vegetables and drinking the local water there.
To do so risks much disease and potential suffering.

Yet even if they dis-regard the warnings, and get very sick,
they still remain members of the military, all other things being equal.

Believers , the elect, who disregard Yahuweh's warnings might often get sick and die,
but remain the elect.
Note that many believers in Corinth got sick and died, and were chastised/ warned/ disciplined about this, but they remained believers in that case, all other things being equal.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I don't think Jesus is a vine. Do you?

John 15:5 I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who ...
John 15:5 I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing.
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. Weymouth New Testament I am the Vine, you are the branches. He who continues in me and in whom I continue bears abundant fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. World English Bible I am the vine.


He says He is. I believe Jesus, do you ?

 

[renniks]

I don't think Jesus is a vine. Do you?

What? How is that even in question? He says he is.

 

[zoidar]

Seek Yahuweh's Meaning, that is my point.

Yet even in English, as already posted:

My understanding is that "if possible" means if they listen to the false prophers, then it's possible.

A man tries to trick you into drinking poisoned milk. If he succeedes, if it's possible to trick you, then you will drink it and die.

 

[zoidar]

Military persons visiting Mexico are often warned about the danger of eating unwashed vegetables and drinking the local water there.
To do so risks much disease and potential suffering.

Yet even if they dis-regard the warnings, and get very sick,
they still remain members of the military, all other things being equal.

Believers , the elect, who disregard Yahuweh's warnings might often get sick and die,
but remain the elect.
Note that many believers in Corinth got sick and died, and were chastised/ warned/ disciplined about this, but they remained believers in that case, all other things being equal.

I don't think that makes sense.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I don't think that makes sense.

That's okay.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

My understanding is that "if possible" means if they listen to the false prophers, then it's possible.

A man tries to trick you into drinking poisoned milk. If he succeedes, if it's possible to trick you, then you will drink it and die.

The first time I read the Scripture, and every time all the time, and the word studies associated with the Scripture,
and with a very good knowledge of English language (born into, grew up with , etc )

and in line with all other known renditions/ commentaries also, that I know of,

it is not possible. (not from this verse)....

Yes, they would deceive even the elect, IF POSSIBLE, ....

but as regards this verse, no, it indicates that they cannot deceive the elect with their lies.

As Jesus also agrees: "MY sheep (i.e. the elect) HEAR MY VOICE< and follow ME, they WILL NOT FOLLOW ANOTHER"
(but will run from other voices)

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

My understanding is that "if possible" means if they listen to the false prophers, then it's possible.

A man tries to trick you into drinking poisoned milk. If he succeedes, if it's possible to trick you, then you will drink it and die.

For another example in English: if someone tries for ten years to convince you that you are a woman and not a man, can they convince you ? I think not!
Oh, for money, for power, for many reasons, they MIGHT WANT TO CONVINCE YOU "if possible",
but it is not possible.

Thus the errors and foibles of the English translations is exposed more.

 

[zoidar]

... word studies associated with the Scripture,
and with a very good knowledge of English language (born into, grew up with , etc )

and in line with all other known renditions/ commentaries also, that I know of,

it is not possible. (not from this verse)....

Ok, I haven't checked any Biblestudies to this verse, so I can't say much about it. But I will do that. God bless!

 

[BNR32FAN]

like,all of the non-parable verses I quote,like john 3:16.

They’re all very relevant teachings so we have to see how they all fit together without contradicting each other and without disregarding any of them. Matthew 25:31-46 is just as important as John 3:16.

 

[Daniel C]

What? How is that even in question? He says he is.

No, in a parable he says he is the vine, not a vine.

I view him as my savior.

What you are doing here is fragmentation. Taking one verse and building a religion out of it. I've quoted a lot of Scripture to you or the other people who are works based and it has been dismissed.

 

[Daniel C]

They’re all very relevant teachings so we have to see how they all fit together without contradicting each other and without disregarding any of them. Matthew 25:31-46 is just as important as John 3:16.

Well if my memory serves me correctly, I have addressed your points but we keep going back to them, you have avoided my points. Not sure where to go from here, a repeat cycle or you can try and tackle some of my points you ignored or end the conversation.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You use these parables to base your doctrine off of, claiming Jesus meant them word for word verbatim. When I ask if Jesus is a Vine and we are Goats I think it becomes clear a parable isn't a literal teaching.

Are you suggesting that we disregard Jesus’ parables? They do serve a purpose and are not difficult to understand. You say these are my doctrines but the church has held these doctrines since the beginning of Christianity. They are supported by the early church writings throughout the centuries dating all the way back to the 1st century AD. Reformed theology claims to have sola scriptura but that is only because there are no early church writings before the 16th century to support them. So many people believe there is this huge conspiracy within the church to distort God’s word and that ALL of the churches established by the apostles are teaching a false gospel. It’s preposterous to believe that all of the church clergy agreed to this world wide false gospel with no evidence of any sort of refutation or resistance. It’s just incomprehensible.

 

[Daniel C]

John 15:5 I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who ...
John 15:5 I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing.
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. Weymouth New Testament I am the Vine, you are the branches. He who continues in me and in whom I continue bears abundant fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. World English Bible I am the vine.


He says He is. I believe Jesus, do you ?

No, he is not a vine. He is a man,the second member of the Trinity. You are misinterpreting the parable.