Do you have to be a good servant to be saved?

fhansen · Sep 20, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
I believe purely and totally that
trusting in the heavenly Father's understanding and revelation of Ekklesia called according to His Purpose
is much better for life
than history is.

The church is a visible physical entity that God established at Pentecost-or earlier. It possessed a unified body of beliefs from the beginning. Sola Scriptura spawns no such unity; by its nature it cannot be relied on to do so. Really, without the history of the church and the faith that it carried on and taught and testified to and persevered and at times clarified in councils down through the centuries, there would probably exist no christian faith today.

fhansen · Sep 20, 2019

Daniel C said:
Whats commandments is he talking about?

“Which ones?” the man asked.

Jesus answered, “‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not bear false witness, honor your father and mother, and love your neighbor as yourself.” Matt 19

Daniel C · Sep 20, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
What authority are you referring to?

I'm sorry I was under the impressions you thought the Catholic church had authority. Let me ask you plainly. Does the Catholic church has authority. Yes or no and why.

yeshuaslavejeff · Sep 20, 2019

1 John 3 NIV - See what great love the Father has - Bible ...

https://www.biblegateway.com › passage › search=1+John+3
3 All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure. ... 1 John 3:2 Or when it is made known; 1 John 3:13 The Greek word for brothers and ...
1 John 3 KJV - Behold, what manner of love the Father - Bible ...

https://www.biblegateway.com › passage › search=1+John+3
3 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. ... Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin,

Daniel C · Sep 20, 2019

1213 said:
In that case I don’t see why you said my definition was wrong.

Because I interpreted it as being a works saved/salvation system as it began with 'saved from sin' and was accompanied with other work salvation Biblical passages but I could be in error.

You're the kind of fellow member I can happily deal with,one reply a day.

Daniel C · Sep 20, 2019

fhansen said:
“Which ones?” the man asked.

Jesus answered, “‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not bear false witness, honor your father and mother, and love your neighbor as yourself.” Matt 19

Is that it then?

fhansen · Sep 20, 2019

Daniel C said:
Is that it then?

No-and that's the point.

yeshuaslavejeff · Sep 20, 2019

Matthew 19:16-25 New International Version (NIV)
The Rich and the Kingdom of God
16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”

17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”

18 “Which ones?” he inquired.

Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’a]">[a] and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’b]">[b]”

20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”
i.e. >>

Daniel C said:
Is that it then?

21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked,
“Who then can be saved?”

BobRyan · Sep 20, 2019

BBAS 64 said:
Good Day, BNR32FAN

They were not believers... notice Jesus word "I never knew you" they were not his sheep, he never chose to enter into a relationship with them. They can say, and do all they want it is the actions or inaction of Jesus to know or not to know that it the main verb clause and sets the frame work of this passage.

In that chapter "not everyone who says to ME 'Lord, Lord' will ENTER" Matt 7. He does not find fault with their words, their doctrine... He finds fault with their actions. Their fruit.

They do great works "IN JESUS' name" according to Matt 7.

Ezek 18 explains what is going on

24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.

Which is why the result is "I never knew you"

BBAS 64 said:
Good Day, Bob
Easier to stick with the explicit meaning the words in the text
Jesus never did the action verb know on the personal pronoun object you.
Thus Grammatically I never knew you is quite clear.
In Him,
Bill

Jesus is speaking to "embrace the scriptures" followers of Christ not "reject scripture so you can follow the Messiah" crowds.

Thus in Matthew 15 - Jesus is clear "reject scripture" is not an option.
In Luke 24:27 "27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures." - Jesus was preaching an "embrace the scriptures" message.

And a "condemn tradition that opposes scriptures" message.

Mark 7
“Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with impure hands?” 6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

I am pointing out that exegesis requires that the text be viewed in light of scripture on that very point - because taking the text in isolation can result in spinning it any of a number of different directions. Two points determine a straight line ... eliminating a lot of other options.

yeshuaslavejeff · Sep 20, 2019

BobRyan said:
In that chapter "not everyone who says to ME 'Lord, Lord' will ENTER" Matt 7. He does not find fault with their words, their doctrine... He finds fault with their actions. Their fruit.

oops....
I think rather their actions are practically identical to others who are actually saved. (tares looking like wheat perhaps?)

It is written that , as He knows everyone's heart perfectly,
He told them they did what they did for show, (hypocrites, actors on the stage of life),
and they were not doing anything in obedience to Him.
i.e. Jesus was not their Lord, thus not their Savior.

fhansen · Sep 20, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Matthew 19:16-25 New International Version (NIV)
The Rich and the Kingdom of God
25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked,
“Who then can be saved?”

26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Phil 4:13

"Apart from Me you can do nothing." John 15:5

By the indwelling of the Spirit, God can accomplish in us what we cannot on our own.

Daniel C · Sep 20, 2019

fhansen said:
No-and that's the point.

As Jeff has already pointed out,there is a lot more. The commandements are paraphrased with this:

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

And what do you think that means? Doing the hail Mary?

Also, when Jesus was asked what the Greatest commandment of all was I think it telling of what God wants from us. I don't think loving God with all our heart soul,mind and strength is begrudgingly spending a Sunday morning in a cold building or putting ashes on our foreheads. It's a mindset that only comes from the heart of true believers and faith.

Daniel C · Sep 20, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Matthew 19:16-25 New International Version (NIV)
The Rich and the Kingdom of God
16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”

17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”

18 “Which ones?” he inquired.

Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’a]">[a] and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’b]">[b]”

20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”
i.e. >>

21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked,
“Who then can be saved?”

A pertinent question from the Apostles,that Jesus gave the answer to:

''25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.''

Man can't save himself through works of the flesh,only by faith in God.

fhansen · Sep 20, 2019

Daniel C said:
As Jeff has already pointed out,there is a lot more. The commandements are paraphrased with this:

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

And what do you think that means? Doing the hail Mary?

Also, when Jesus was asked what the Greatest commandment of all was I think it telling of what God wants from us. I don't think loving God with all our heart soul,mind and strength is begrudgingly spending a Sunday morning in a cold building or putting ashes on our foreheads. It's a mindset that only comes from the heart of true believers and faith.

You seem to be out for blood for no apparent reason. YOU'RE the one who asked what more must be done besides believing. I answered. Nothing about a Hail Mary, nothing about not forsaking the assembly.

Love, BTW, is not inherent in faith; it's a separate virtue such that Paul could say,
"...if I have a faith that can move mountains but have not love, I am nothing."
and,
"Now these three remain, faith, hope and love but the most important of these is love."
and the Church can teach, echoing John of the Cross, a 16th century believer,
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

Now that ties Jesus, Paul, & James together, bringing the gospel into full focus and making sense of Scripture in its whole context. Love is what fulfills the law and produces obedience in us by its nature. It's what was lacking in Eden and what God means to cultivate in us. It's the primary "just" in justification, the definition of righteousness for man which is why the Greatest Commandments are what they are.

Catholicism focuses on love in this way, as the heart of our faith, more vocally and emphatically than most denominations with the exception of Methodism perhaps.

yeshuaslavejeff · Sep 20, 2019

Daniel C said:
Man can't save himself through works of the flesh,only by faith in God.

Why did you seemingly add this ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ to God's Word ?

Do you truly believe the Father's Word is not true when He Says that He Prepared Good Works for all His children to do (daily) ?

Daniel C · Sep 20, 2019

fhansen said:
You seem to be out for blood for no apparent reason. YOU'RE the one who asked what more must be done besides believing. I answered.

I don't believe what you believe,so I ask what your viewpoint is to understand.

I'm not out for blood i'm just dialoguing.

Daniel C · Sep 20, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Why did you seemingly add this ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ to God's Word ?

Do you truly believe the Father's Word is not true when He Says that He Prepared Good Works for all His children to do (daily) ?

Did you see the quotation marks in the post?

fhansen · Sep 20, 2019

Daniel C said:
I don't believe what you believe,so I ask what your viewpoint is to understand.

I'm not out for blood i'm just dialoguing.

Ok? Seemed like an awful lot of commentary along with the asking tho.

Daniel C · Sep 20, 2019

fhansen said:
Ok? Seems like an awful lot of commentary along with asking tho.

So in regard to the back and forth dialogue and commentary that has happened, what do you think I should reflect on that has been said during this exchange?

fhansen · Sep 20, 2019

Daniel C said:
So in regard to the back and forth dialogue and commentary that has happened, what do you think I should reflect on that has been said during this exchange?

At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love.

Man has always been obligated to righteousness and obedience; that doesn't change with the New Covenant. The NC finally gives us the authentic means to fulfill this obligation, through love, wrought in us by God as we come to know Him and He then 'places His law in our minds and writes in on our hearts'.

Do you have to be a good servant to be saved?

Do you have to be a good servant to be saved?

Yes

No

I don't know

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