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Do you go to Heaven directly after you die?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Metalhead777, Apr 8, 2002.

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  1. 2002 Christian

    2002 Christian Member

    402
    +0
    John 14:2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

    Without the return of Jesus and his taking of us to the Father's house, we would not be with him. So, no, we don't go directly to heaven when we die - else Jesus is a liar.
     
  2. kern

    kern Miserere Nobis

    +7
    Catholic
    Why do so many feel the need to use the phrases "or else Jesus is a liar" or "or else God is a liar", etc. as a synonym for "or else my interpretation of the scriptures is wrong"?

    It's evident that other people on this board have differing opinions about this than you. Are you really accusing them of calling Jesus a liar? That's a very strong accusation to be making to another Christian, and I don't see what it adds to your discussion except an irrelevant appeal to emotion.

    -Chris
     
  3. 2002 Christian

    2002 Christian Member

    402
    +0
    Jesus did the speaking. Do you believe Him? or what others say?
     
  4. Ephesian

    Ephesian Member

    96
    +2
    Non-Denom
    amie - I hope you visit this thread again. I would reeeeally be interested as well. I feel I missing something.
     
  5. amie

    amie Survivor

    +7
    Non-Denom
    Hi Ephesian!
    I am here bud! would you like me to send to you, the chain of events? I still owe soulsister too!
    Amie
     
  6. seekingtruth

    seekingtruth New Member

    8
    +0
    Where is the teaching in scripture about Pergatory? References please.

    Paul taught that to be absent from the body was to be present with the Lord.

    Heb. says It is appointed to man to die once and then to face judgment.

    So where does the idea of Purgatory come from?
     
  7. Ephesian

    Ephesian Member

    96
    +2
    Non-Denom
    Hi amie,
    Absolutely! And thanks a bunch.
     
  8. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

    +605
    Eastern Orthodox
    1 Corinthians 3
    11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- 13 each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

    The Catholic Church, as well as the Eastern Orthodox Churches (though less formulated) teach that there will be a final purification for those who die with unrepentant venial sins (1 John 5:15-18) on their souls. We believe that Christ died once and for all for our sins, but at the same time we must cooperate with Christ. F.J. Sheed puts it this way in his wonderful book "Theology and Sanity" :

    Paul makes it "...equally clear not only that there is something to be done BY US for our salvation, but that Christ's own part in our salvation is not confined to His death on Calvary: 'For if, when we were reconciled to God BY THE DEATH of his Son: much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved BY HIS LIFE' (Romans 5.10)."

    It is in our failing to live our life in accordance with His that we build our foundations on perishable things, and on our Judgment Day, the day that we die, will be "saved, but only as through fire."

    Punishment for sins and forgiveness of them are separate things, as David well knows (2 Samuel 12:13-14). If found guilty, we will be judged to stay in prison until we pay the last penny (Matthew 5:25-26).

    In Christ,

    Neal
     
  9. amie

    amie Survivor

    +7
    Non-Denom
    OK!!! I posted my death over in apologetics! It may get moved but the thread is called near death experiences so I hope someone that requested it can read it...it was easier to post than pm everyone!
    love and blessings
    Amie
     
  10. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

    766
    +6
    Christian
    Heres an article that you might find interesting.
    The Intermediate State

    [@Hades] ("hell" in KJV) in Acts 2:27 is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew [~She'owl], which is found in the passage Peter is quoting from Psalm 16. Of the 65 times this word occurs in the Old Testament, the KJV rendered it as "hell" and "grave" 31 times each, plus 3 times as "pit." This was an unfortunate blunder, for [~Shª'owl] never means anything but the intermediate state of the soul. It is never translated in the Septuagint by [@mnema] (the Greek word for grave or tomb -- Acts 2:29), but only by Hades. Nor is the Hebrew word for grave ([~qeber]) ever translated as Hades. This demonstrates that, as David indicated, only the soul enters Sheol/Hades. The "corruption" David spoke of is the normal decay of the body. He affirms that in the case of Jesus both his soul and his undecayed body would return, obviously to be reunited in resurrection.

    Another key passage for our understanding of the intermediate state of the dead is Luke 16:19-31. There Jesus tells of an ungodly rich man who died and his body was buried, yet he (his soul) continued on in conscious existence in "Hades." A righteous beggar also died and he (his soul) was "carried away by the angels into Abraham's bosom." The passage further tells us that the intermediate state has two separate divisions with an impassable gulf in between. Hades is the inclusive term for the entire realm since both the wicked (Luke 16:23) and the righteous (Acts 2:27,31) have gone there. The state of the wicked is further described as "torment" (Luke 16:23-25, 28) and the state of the righteous as "Paradise" (Luke 23:43).

    From these facts, however, we must not draw the conclusion that Hades is some one particular place as in our three-dimensional world. The word simply means "unseen," and since it is the realm of disembodied spirits, it may refer more to an unseen condition or state than to an unseen place such as has often been diagrammed on charts. The question may legitimately be asked, therefore, where the dead are actually located -- especially the righteous dead about whom we have more information.

    To answer the question, one cannot rightly appeal to Luke 23:46 and Acts 7:59, for at death every spirit, whether good or bad, "returneth unto God" (Eccl. 12:7). The spirit of every man "goeth upward" (Eccl. 3:21) to be placed where God sees fit. However, Paul said of the righteous that when our mortal body is "dissolved" we have a habitation "in the heavens" (2 Cor. 5:1). Further, Paul said that to be "absent from the body" is to be "at home with the Lord" (2 Cor. 5:8), and that he longed "to depart and be with Christ" (Phil. 1:23). It has been objected, though, that we must not ignore the omnipresence of Christ. It is true that God can be in Sheol (Ps. 139:8) and that Christ promised to be "with" us even here (Matt. 28:20), but the above verses indicate a presence with Christ in the same literal sense that we are now in the body. Here we are "absent" from him, but there we are "at home" with him. And since Jesus is in heaven (Mark 16:19), this must be where the righteous go also to be with him.

    There is other strong indication in the New Testament that Hades for the righteous is in heaven. Paul located Paradise in "the third heaven" (2 Cot. 12:1-4). The first heaven is atmospheric (Jer. 4:25), and the second is sidereal (outer space -- Isa. 13:10). The third is God's own dwelling place (Dan. 2:28) -- "the heaven of heavens" (1 Kings 8:27). Paul was caught up to the latter and into Paradise. There is only one such place, since in all three references to it (Luke 23:43; 2 Cor. 12:4; Rev. 2:7) it is called "the" Paradise. There the tree of life is located (Rev. 2:7), but the tree of life is in heaven (Rev. 22:1-3,14). Righteous souls are therefore in the heavenly realm. The Book of Revelation clearly pictures them there prior to judgment day in Rev. 6:9-11, and this is the consistent scene that book presents (cf. Rev. 7:9-17; 11:12; 15:1-4; 20:4-6). Finally, at the end of time, Jesus will return from heaven (2 Thess. 1:7) and bring the souls of those saints "with him" to be reunited with their resurrected bodies (1 Thess. 4:14-16).

    It has been objected that departed spirits could surely not occupy heaven without seeing God (Rev. 22:4) and that since "no man hath seen God at any time" (1 John 4:12), no human soul has gone to heaven. However, this ignores the case of Paul (2 Cor. 12:1-4), and 1 John 4:12 was written after that visit. Perhaps our seeing God is reserved only for future eternity in glorified bodies. Then again, "no man" may simply mean no mortal man on earth. Another objection is based on Acts 2:34 and John 3:13 -- that neither David nor anyone but Jesus has ascended into heaven. These passages, though, speak of bodily ascension. This is clear from the fact that Paul was "caught up" into heaven. Peter's argument is that David's body has not left its tomb and that his soul is still in Hades (Acts 2:29-31). It is only at the end of time when death is no more (1 Cor. 15:54-55) that we will be released from the grave (John 5:28-29) and ransomed from Sheol/Hades (Hos. 13:14) to be "caught up" bodily "in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air" (1 Thess. 4:17). But the question is -- where are disembodied souls meanwhile?

    It may be that prior to the ascension of Jesus righteous souls were not yet in heaven, for Jesus went "into heaven itself" (Heb. 9:24) as a "forerunner" (Heb. 6:19-20), having obtained eternal redemption" (Heb. 9:12), in order to cleanse the "heavenly things" (Heb. 9:23) and open the "way" for us (Heb. 10:19-20). Whereas Paradise/Hades may have been moved to heaven as a result of the cross, it is more certain that it is now there (however long that has been the case), for Paul affirmed that it is. There righteous souls are told to "rest" until other earthly lives are over (Rev. 6:11). We must therefore not confuse the intermediate state with some non-heavenly place. For the righteous, Hades is in the Paradise of heaven.
     
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