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Yes, sometimes I look at differences and think... was that really a reason to separate?
I feel this way, too.
I don't understand why Cf has to be divided up into denominations. There doesn't seem to be any place where just plain old Christians can talk to just plain old Christians.
Although I am Anabaptist by birth, upbringing and choice, I really think of myself as a unfettered Christian. Denomination doesn't really mean much to me at all. I think all denominations have good things to offer the body of Christ.
It gets tiresome for all our discussions to have to be centered around what is officially Anabaptist as a denominational heading.
Of denominations and all the stuff that goes along with denominationalism?
We've talked about this in the past, and I still tend to agree with the Catholic & Orthodox folks on this one. Because the reformation "freed" us from the "chains" of tradition, papacy, etc., we are free to be our own popes and determine for ourselves what we "feel" the Holy Spirit is leading us. If I don't like this preacher or church, I'll just go find one that "suits", and hey if all of them suck I'll just form my own Bless God...
I guess I shouldn't be surprised by the strife on the anabaptist forum; as small a body it is historically it's probably splintered way more times than any of the mainline groups...and each and every one believing they are doing God's bidding...and perhaps in certain ways they are? Yet splitting apart isn't really supposed to be part of the plan.
The factions are just part of the price we pay I suppose...though I think this group has the right idea, simply being hands and feet and loving our neighbor even to the point of moving into the inner cities to become part of the community...and they are a collection of all sorts of denom groups, yet they aren't defined by what church building they go to or what creed they hold, but rather by the love and sacrifice they demonstrate. It's a neat picture; a positive microcosm of what can be...
But the Pope's office is an example of how absolute power corrupts. I look at what happened in Boston and how Cardinal Law was brought to Rome and he has a lovely apartment and wonder what the heck?
On another web site Beliefnet, and ex Trappist has a story about how he complained about sexual improprieties of a monk and he was kicked out and was told to tell everyone the reason he was kicked out was because he was "disobedient".
Funny thing is, I have an Uncle who was in seminary and did not finish. When I asked him why, he stated he was "disobedient".
So it got me thinking.
We are not running around being our own popes. We are questioning those in authority. Those in authority may or may not be following Christ.
That's not the point, the point is, people should be able to question authority in The Church. If one can't that leads to those in authority abusing their power.Those questioning the authorities may or may not be following Christ either....
And so where has all the questioning got us? ...
For all the problems in the RCC there are plenty of issues in the Protestant churches too. Find a priest pedophile and there's a minister pedophile around the corner. Chaff and wheat will always be mingled until that final day.
Doesn't God meet with us on our own terms and understanding? God can meet with a person with an I.Q of 72 or a person with an I.Q of 175.My point is that we really have no authority to answer to except "God", and I put that in quotes because we tend to draw God into whatever we best understand. ...
If we are afraid to defend our beliefs then there is something wrong. Questions enforce beliefs. Or either these questions point out a wrong and we learn.So we call our own shots, challenge anyone that questions us, question anyone that challenges us, and meander in the morass of self rule. ...
Corrupt papacy? We are all corrupt...corrupted in self righteousness that sets ourselves as the spokespersons of God when we can't see past our bellybuttons. Easy to say j'accuse to a pope but somehow won't remove the 2x4 from my eyeball......
Why would someone repent for seeing a wrong, pointing it out, not seeing it corrected and righting the wrong?Yeah, denoms suck. My heathen little brother once asked me why there just can't be a little church on the corner that has a sign on it that says "Church". I had no answer. People get together in agreement on certain practices, form together, write it down, and next thing ya know there's a denom. And the founders, if they saw what came of the group they formed, more often than not would probably repent of ever doing it. ......
This then is what the "emerging church" movement is trying to get out from under. They view the institution as a huge burden. Unfortunately I think it will be as splintered as anything else...
WARNING: not trying to pick a fight just getting spirited.
Looking to discuss with civility. If you take offense to a post, please let me know I will change the wording. NO offense is intended no malice.
That's not the point, the point is, people should be able to question authority in The Church. If one can't that leads to those in authority abusing their power.
Ask the RC folks, they'll tell ya that authority is questioned all the time. It's surprising just how much so...and even in my local baptist church authority is challenged, and sometimes I think to the point that leadership is a little crippled and sorta doing what the "people want"...which may work for a government but am not sure a church (of any size/denom) can operate that way.
A clear conscious.
I'm not resting to well with a clear conscience...
Pedophelia is not covered up and protected by those who claim to be Christ's mouth piece and a central authority. That was the issue: those who questioned and made waves about it were seen as "enemies" of the church.
Yeah, there are issues there, but they are being worked on...I'm not trying to defend their actions.
Doesn't God meet with us on our own terms and understanding? God can meet with a person with an I.Q of 72 or a person with an I.Q of 175.
Yeah, you are right, but consider that if left alone without proper teaching and leadership we are all left to create our own God. Consider what the entire church looks like, from a little house church to St Peter's, and not everyone can be right, can they? Well...maybe...if people are grabbing little bits of God and hanging on to that particular picture thinking it's the whole thing...no that still doesn't work.
If we are afraid to defend our beliefs then there is something wrong. Questions enforce beliefs. Or either these questions point out a wrong and we learn.
Apologetics are a necessary part of the church; my point referred more to the cafeteria approach to the faith in that we pick and choose what to believe and do and "don't judge me" sort of thing.
The big difference is. Many don't claim to be a Vicar of Christ. Many don't claim our authority is of God's and how dare you even think of questioning me. I sorta see this mentality all the time, particularly around CF...
Why would someone repent for seeing a wrong, pointing it out, not seeing it corrected and righting the wrong?
I think the institution would be too big for change...and even God repented of creating man way back when...
I tend to believe a powerful institution is a burden. You look at the public school system in The U.S and it's an institution. It's a joke. You can't use it...so why should a world wide religious institution be any different?
More power to you. I tried unsucessfully to homeschool, but quickly found out the public school system is a broken system. It's only for the naturally smart and athletic...big deal those people will go far in life anyway.I agree; I homeschool my boys for this very reason..
I have no answers on this issue; I'd like to embrace Rome but can't get past St Peter's and all the wealth and pomp.....
I'd like to embrace the Orthodox but can't get past kissing paintings and the foreign "eastern" thing...
I am trying it but have my reservations. Quakers are into the "inner light". I don't know if that is right..I'd like to embrace the home church, but it comes off a little too risky and unsure..
.and I don't like to be all alone in this church deal either. Ashes always tells me to get past the form and institution and just serve Christ where I'm at so that is where I'm at right now...this topic though always cranks me a little.
Yes, I think we should realize that God is bigger than any one denomination.Of denominations and all the stuff that goes along with denominationalism?
Yes, I think we should realize that God is bigger than any one denomination.
I am a believer first and foremost. Christ is above all.
Maybe you can be more like the monks who take the vow of poverty. You can't be a monk, I know but they sort of have the same philosophy of simple living.Maybe that's the way you can see the church. You may find the truth in the Catholic Church.
Also this book was wicked good and I am sorry I gave it away.http://www.amazon.com/Lessons-Saint-Francis-Simplicity-Spirituality/dp/0452278341
The Lessons of Saint Francis: How to Bring Simplicity and Spirituality into Your Daily Life
I understand exactly why, it just doesn't seem...I don't know, something just strikes me funny when it comes to venerating icons. But who knows? Maybe that's it...Have you found out why they do that? I really can't state why but maybe if you knew why you would be comfortable.
Quakers come in lots of flavors, but I've not met many conservative ones. Seems odd though to toss out all ordinances (communion, baptism) and trust "inner light". But maybe that's it?I am trying it but have my reservations. Quakers are into the "inner light". I don't know if that is right.
Maybe you are at the 40 days of solitude in the wilderness like Jesus.
I guess I'm somewhat settled into this little baptist church I go too. Primary reason is because it's close. Always thought it odd to have to explain to a neighbor about coming to church, but ya have to travel 10 miles to get there and in the process pass-within a b-a dozen other churches. Now there is a Church of the Brethren (which is anabaptist) a couple of blocks up the street, and I've avoided them because of the reputation it has--being one of the more liberal CoBs around, but I guess I should stop listening to gossip. I always held the CoB in question since it's a member of the NCC, but then so is the American Baptist Church I go toI can relate, I am pretty frazzled about finding a church.
I've not seen that one, but I've half a dozen St Francis books...he is an interesting example that I often wonder about-it's time for another St Francis, and I don't mean franscican monks, either.
Ever hear of Rich Mullins? He was a non-catholic St Francis, even down to the vows of poverty and chastity. He often described himself as a protestant monk.
I have no answers on this issue; I'd like to embrace Rome but can't get past St Peter's and all the wealth and pomp...I'd like to embrace the Orthodox but can't get past kissing paintings and the foreign "eastern" thing...I'd like to embrace the home church, but it comes off a little too risky and unsure...and I don't like to be all alone in this church deal either. Ashes always tells me to get past the form and institution and just serve Christ where I'm at so that is where I'm at right now...this topic though always cranks me a little.
Ever hear of Rich Mullins? He was a non-catholic St Francis, even down to the vows of poverty and chastity. He often described himself as a protestant monk.
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