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...Do you even believe in Evolution in the first palce?

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Cheeky Monkey

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Objective reality is less forgiving. If I ignore it I get hit by a car.
 
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TLK Valentine

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And if you met Adam, and he told you he was one day old, would you think he was a candidate for Belleview?

No, because he'd be right. He might appear to be a mature adult, but appearances can be deceiving.

He'd only been in existence for a day, so he'd only be a day old.
 
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TLK Valentine

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So I should interpret the Resurrection in accordance with "objective reality"?

Couldn't hurt you to try -- first time's always the hardest.
 
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Cheeky Monkey

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This new/old dress thing is like asking if God can make a white dress thats totally black.

To me it seems like asking, can god make a dress that looks black? Can god make a dress that looks old and tatty? Can god make a dress that looks like a cake? Sure.
 
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AV1611VET

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Can God create a dress tomorrow so old, it falls apart with age the next day?

This new/old dress thing is like asking if God can make a white dress thats totally black.

But dresses can [and do] fall apart with age, do they not?

I believe it is because the bonds between the atoms weaken over time.
 
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Loudmouth

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So are gravity and atoms also foolishness? Do you reject all of science because it is foolishness?
 
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durangodawood

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But dresses can [and do] fall apart with age, do they not?

I believe it is because the bonds between the atoms weaken over time.
This reminds me of a builder I talked to who had to install a door in Ralph Lauren's house. Now Ralph likes everything to have a patina of age, and not look shiny-new. I think the builder got a bunch of people to beat the door with metal chains for 20 minutes or so. Something like that.

And as for old dresses falling apart, it has nothing to do with atomic bonds. Its more macro-level structural changes of thread strands getting damaged by the stress of use.

Anyway, I think an all powerful God could create a brand new world that looks old to us. But it seems like a silly thing to do. My sense is that the world looks old, under every sort of scrutiny, because..... it IS old.
 
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AV1611VET

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My sense is that the world looks old, under every sort of scrutiny, because..... it IS old.
I agree -- but it didn't grow old, it came into existence old.
 
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durangodawood

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I agree -- but it didn't grow old, it came into existence old.
Have you ever looked into dendrochronology? Continuous tree-ring patterns have been mapped back as far as 11,000 years.

It just seems ridiculous that its all real until 6,000 years ago, and then prior to that it was all contrived.
 
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Cheeky Monkey

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But dresses can [and do] fall apart with age, do they not?

I believe it is because the bonds between the atoms weaken over time.

Actually they just make different bonds and break old ones. Chemical bonds don't weaken with time. They either are or they aren't.
 
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KWCrazy

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Sure. As far as i can tell no one ever came into existence already an adult.
So should we base our existence on your knowledge, or should we presume that there are things you don't know?

Q. If God created all living things as newborn babies, how many of them would survive.
A. Very few.

Most babies need an adult mother to help them survive until they can fend for themselves. Man is no exception. If you've ever looked around, you might have noticed that the world is populated by adults and children who are becomming adults. The role of children is to grow into adults. The role of adults is to raise their families and serve God.

A simple reading of Genesis will reveal that everything God created was in its mature state, including trees bearing fruit and not seedlings in the dirt. Maturity, then, was part of the design. Adam was a mature adult, the animals were created in their maturiy, the trees were created in their maturity and the planet was created in its maturity. To the ignorant, this may seem like God is intending to decieve us. Actually, I think He intends for us to read His Word. The question of the appearance of age is quite easily answered when you read about the creation and all things being created in their mature state. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to comprehend that if everything else was created in its mature state then the Earth was as well.

We constantly read the words of atheists who attempt to put retrictions on a God in whom they do not believe. It's actually quite comedic at times. "If the earth only looks old than your God is a liar." Really? That you aren't smart enough to comprehend His creation is not a possibility? I find the combination of ignorance and pomposity to be an amusing distraction, but not something particularly worthy of a significant time investment.

God created a mature world. Deal with it.
 
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Strathos

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Nor is reality obligated to follow the laws of physics. The laws is based on human collected experience and observations not on a "truth" about the universe.

By "laws of physics" I mean the operating principles of the universe as they truly are, not just limited to the ones we understand.


It's true that via scientific investigation it would not really be possible to determine if something was a miracle or not, unless you had complete scientific knowledge of the universe and how it works. However I was saying that if someone like AV was going to classify something as a miracle, then by definition it couldn't be used to challenge or disprove any scientific theories, as miracles are violations/exceptions to science.

Yes, but miracles are impossible....

Obviously an atheist like you would not believe that miracles occur, but I'm talking about a situation where one would classify a certain event as a miracle, and what implications that would have.

I'm not trying to prove to you that miracles happen.


See above.


You seem to be missing my point.

If the sun and moon stood still in the sky for a day today, and scientists couldn't explain it, then it would indicate that the laws governing the motion of objects in space would probably need to be revised/amended.

However, if this act was classified as a miracle, and we somehow knew it was a miracle, then our current scientific understanding wouldn't need to be changed at all, since miracles are not part of science and science does not apply to them.

So what I am saying is that if you consider something to be a miracle, then it can't be used to disprove/overturn established science, as miracles are exceptions that don't conform to the laws of science.
 
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Split Rock

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Of course God didn't create a world of newborn babies. If he created anything, he created a universe which developed everything on its own, without God having to tinker with it constantly. Therefore, the whole "create mature" problem is irrelevant. GEN2 is a very human story, told as a human would create... not an all-powerful god would.
 
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AV1611VET

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Of course God didn't create a world of newborn babies. If he created anything, he created a universe which developed everything on its own, without God having to tinker with it constantly.
That, by definition is deism; and we're not deists.
 
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