Do you blaspheme Mary?

[BNR32FAN]

Not as a day of worship in place of Gods "seventh day Sabbath" of Gods 4th commandment. According to the scriptures, Gods' people met together everyday of the week and worshiped God *Acts of the Apostles 2:46-47. That does not make everyday of the week a holy day of rest where no work can be done now does it?

Im not going to engage in this topic in this thread.

 

[Albion]

I believe that in DEUTERONOMY 18:11-12 the Hebrew words for necromancer have application to prayers to the dead which can includes Mary and the saints because praying to the dead is seeking to have contact with the dead because it is the dead you are praying to and asking or inquiring which is the meaning of the Hebrew words.

The scriptures are saying if someone is dead then we are not to try and communicate to them.

You may be correct in saying that praying to the dead is not Scriptural. However, when you say--as you repeatedly did in your posts, not all of which I quoted--that there is an effort to communicate with the dead the issue becomes less clear.

Few people who pray to the saints expect or are trying to get a return message or the start of a conversation with them. The intention is to ask for their intervention with God, that's all, unless some words of praise for the saint are included. Also, there are hardly any churches that would encourage such a thing as an attempt to establish a two-way communication with spirits.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Praying to the dead is forbidden in the scriptures.

DEUTERONOMY 18:11-12 says that we are not to try to communicate to the dead. The Hebrew words הַמֵּתִֽים ham·me·tim with דּרשׁ; dârash that make up necromancy mean to inquire or ask something of the dead. We have focused on the Hebrew word דּרשׁ; dârash emphesizing the inquiring or asking part of the scripture in application to prayers (asking and inquiring) to the dead (Mary and the saints).

I believe that in DEUTERONOMY 18:11-12 the Hebrew words for necromancer have application to prayers to the dead which can includes Mary and the saints because praying to the dead is seeking to have contact with the dead because it is the dead you are praying to and asking or inquiring which is the meaning of the Hebrew words.

Another words trying to contact the dead through prayer could be viewed as performing the duty of a necromancer because by praying to the dead your trying to communicate to the dead.

Looking at the Hebrew word meanings what is the difference between someone praying and trying to communicate to the dead and a necromancer when that is the role of a necromancer?

The scriptures are saying if someone is dead then we are not to try and communicate to them.

Praying to the dead goes against the scriptures in God's WORD. As shown above it is an abomination to God and also goes against these scriptures below from the

Isaiah 8:19 When they say to you, Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter, should a people not consult their God? Should they consult the dead in behalf of the living?"

NEW Testament...

JOHN 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

1 TIMOTHY 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

1 TIMOTHY 2:5-6
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

MATTHEW 6:9-13 Pray then like this: “Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

ACTS 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

ECCLESIASTIES 9:5-6 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.

On top of these scriptures brother did you know that praying to the dead has its origin from the pagan cultures of the world?

Finally where in God's WORD are we told to pray to the dead (Mary and the saints)?

Take Care

Not really. Mary is a great bible figure and blessed among all woman giving birth to Jesus though. However, Mary is just like you and me. She was a sinful human being like we all are and in need of God's salvation like we all do. Making a God of Mary breaks Gods' commandments *Exodus 20:3. Making idols of Mary and bowing down to them breaks Gods' commandments *Exodus 20:4-5. Who should we believe and follow here; God or man? For me only God's Words are true *Romans 3:4 and we should believe and follow them Acts of the Apostles 5:29. It seems some here are making a God out of Mary which is an unbiblical false teaching. Mary is not God and Mary worship as the "Queen of Heaven or mother of God" is not biblical and has it's origins in the pagan teachings of Ishtar (see here and here linked)

Take Care

One thing this this thread has clarified for me is that you disrespect Mary by denying her the same respect that she is given by God in the Bible.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Im not going to engage in this topic in this thread.

Wise choice, as it is off topic.

 

[coffee4u]

i was addressing anyone that says it’s impossible to blaspheme Mary. That proposition was made in a previous post by another member. So you do believe it is possible to blaspheme Mary?
Blasphemy is defined as profaning the holy
Is Mary not holy?

Does the Bible say she is Holy?

 

[coffee4u]

The Bible is God's Word (I think we all agree on that).
Within God's Word God gives to us two things: What He wants us to know, and what we need to know.

You are right about Stephen; this story is given to us not to disregard, but rather it is set before us so we too can know this hero of the faith, learn from him and the faithful example he has set for all believers; he was faithful unto death.

As such, ignoring or speaking ill of St. Stephen is blaspheming God, because God set Stephen (and all the other Saints and Martyrs) because dishonoring those whom God chose to honor is dishonoring God.

You wrote:
Acts 6:8
Now Stephen, a man full of God’s grace and power, performed great wonders and signs among the people.
He too is often called blessed. Perhaps someone could make a case that he could be blasphemed. Again, they would only be words of men.

Poor Stephen, often get's forgotten with all the Christmasy stuff going on, his Feast Day, Dec 26, with the exception of the Liturgical Churches, is virtually forgotten. He got the short end of the stick this year being His day is on a Sunday; the First Sunday of Christmas and the Feast of the Holy Family take precedence. So let's not forget him.

This might be taking things too far, but the Churches that chose to disregard all of the servants of God that He chose to share in both the old and the new testament is, in my mind a blasphemous sin of omission.

If someone chooses to insult my Mother, it is not her that the insult is directed at; it is directed at me. Likewise, if we dishonor Mary, we dishonor not only Jesus Christ, but since there is one God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit; we are dishonoring all three persons of the Trinity.

The Greek root blasphem- can be used of strong insults thrown at other people (Mark 15:29; Acts 13:45; Eph 4:31; 1 Peter 4:4), or even unjust accusations (Rom 3:8), but it is more usually used of insults offered to God (Rev 13:6; 16:9)

If we start calling even 'mild things said against' Stephen as blaspheme-
I put those in apostrophes because as far as I know nobody speaks ill about Stephen but doctrine on him could differ. Then it could also be said speaking against any Christian is blaspheme and to me blaspheme has then lost its meaning. The seriousness of it has gone to be replaced by nearly any kind of disagreement or slight.

Jude 1:9
But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, 'The Lord rebuke you!'

I feel there should be far more of a holy fear when using such terms and such accusations should be left for strong insults not for disagreement over doctrine which has then reduced blaspheme to anything the person hurling the term wants it to mean. It is far too casually used.

 

[coffee4u]

No worries... it'll stay posted for those with the time to read and reflect upon. When you get the time, I'd still be interested in how you reconcile your beliefs with the scriptural evidence I cited, as they appear to contradict the scriptural teaching.

Yes indeed... but again you leave out the next verse...
19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

This part is critical to understanding.

As I mentioned, regardless of who yo think the rock is, Jesus clearly gave St. Peter "the keys of the kingdom" (Mt 16:18-19) and He didn't invent the notion of "giving the Keys of the kingdom" right there on the spot... it is rooted in the Old testament practice of what the King of Israel Bestowed upon His prime Minister.

Just as Jehovah Set up a governmental structure for OT Israel, Jesus is setting up His Governmental Structure for NT Israel, the Church.

Read Isaiah 22:15-24 to gain the scriptural understanding of what it means for the King of Israel to bestow the keys of the kingdom to His prime minister, and you will have no more confusion on this.

I can talk about the next verse, I was simply focused on the first.
Matthew 16:19
"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.'"
I will assume again that Catholics view this verse differently. I am not well versed in Catholic doctrine except for the basics.

Jesus gave authority to Peter to act on His behalf.
He did this with the twelve who were to go and represent Him to Israel (Matthew 10:5–15).
Then he gave authority to them both before and after His resurrection (Matthew 18:18; John 20:23)
"keys to the kingdom of heaven." was symbolic of the high standing of Peter. Only the most trusted servant in the household would be given the keys to the doors of the estate.
Peter wasn't alone with the task of bringing the kingdom to the world however, he was but one of them. He wasn't above being wrong and being rebuked by Paul, he wasn't perfect, he wasn't God on earth.
He was still just a man tasked with spreading the gospel as we all are. Again this all comes back down to the Catholic view of Apostolic succession that we disagree with.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Ive addressed all of these in this thread already.

I do not think you have.

 

[The Liturgist]

Sounds like your making a God of Mary here.

You and my beloved Canadian brother @MarkRohfrietsch, who I am increasingly convinced is my twin separated at birth in some navigational accident in the Great Lakes, resulting in one of us being American and the other Canadian, can rest assured that I reviewed the prayer in question with, which is a Latin Rite devotional I am not familiar with (what is it called @boughtwithaprice ) and see no instances of worship, only of veneration, and frankly its subdued compared to the exquisite Eastern Orthodox service of the Akathist Hymn in which in an intermediate manner which is not an example of the Co-Redemptrix neo-Collyridianism the Ida Peerdeman / Fifth Dogma people want the Roman Pontiff to adopt), the intercession of Our Lady is sought. As a Protestant I commend the Akathist to all Protestants (actually there are several; the original is addressed to Mary, who is the mother of God, because contrary to the erroneous Christology I saw earlier in this thread, Chalcedonian and Oriental Orthodox Christians believe that the Incarnation of our Lord was without change, confusion, separation or division).

Actually, one can even pray to the saints to save us, without blasphemy, on a completely scriptural basis, as explained by the Eastern Orthodox apologist Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick. This again does not make the intercessor a co-redeemer, because only Christ by virtue of His hypostatic union, being God and Man simultaneously, can save fallen humanity, for reasons I shall now get into:

We can pray to the Saints and venerate them, and it is possible to blaspheme Mary, for these reasons:

• All humans are icons of the living God and like the Holy Icons are worthy of veneration.
• The saints in Heaven are the Church Triumphant and are alive, just like the saints of the Church Militant on Earth, and indeed the Blessed Virgin Mary is alive in Heaven bodily, like our Lord, Enoch, Moses and Elijah, for like Moses she was Assumed bodily at the time of her Dormition, and therefore prayer to them is not Necromancy. Necromancy would require an intent to contact someone who is dead and not known to be alive in Heaven. For example, if we attempted to contact a murderer or a cult leader, or a cult leading murderer, while our Lord may have had mercy on them, it seems this would be necromancy.
• Slandering a glorified saint contains an element of blasphemy, in that the process of salvation is Theosis, or deification, in which, as St. Athanasius the Great wrote, God become man so that we might become god. This does not mean we become God Himself, or that we become uncreated members of the Trinity with omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence; we are finite creatures and God is infinite, but rather in this context, deification, or theosis, or what John Wesley called Entire Sanctification, is the process by which in cooperation with the Holy Ghost we are freed from the passions which tarnish the divine image, and are made to be purer images of God. But, even slandering a sinner contains an element of blasphemy. Slandering even some of the worst mass murderers would contain an element of blasphemy. That is because all humans, even the worst sinners, are still bearers of the imageo dei. So just as murder is an offense against God, because it is the destruction of a living icon of Him, slandering our fellow men blasphemes Him insofar as we are images of Him, and an explicit attack on the image is at least an implicit attack on what it represents.
  
• Further to this point the early church and the eastern churches tend to regard slander and murder as being analogous.
• To wit, since the Blessed Virgin Mary is the holiest human next to Christ, being innocent of willful sin, although still requiring salvation by Christ because of ancestral sin, and is consequently the purest reflection of the Divine Image, slandering her is more potentially blasphemous.
• However, the blasphemy of the saints becomes even more of a problem when we consider that Theosis is not just the restoration of the fallen image, but a glorification of humanity past the state of Adam and Eve. For Christ, by uniting our humanity with His deity in one person and one hypostasis, has glorified humanity and made it possible for us to participate in the uncreated energies of God.
• Also, to a great extent, all slander of anyone is dangerous because when we slander someone, which is to say, make a malicious statement about them which we know to be false, we could blaspheme the indwelling Holy Spirit.
• I don’t think it is possible to blaspheme a saint accidentally, but rather it is related to slander, whereas one can as a result of being deceived by heresy or false religions blaspheme God unintentionally. So, it is not in any sense blasphemous to hold erroneous views about the Blessed Virgin Mary held by some Christians, such as the Fifth Dogma people who believe her to be co-redemptrix, or the Medjugorje people who believe in a most improbable scenario, or some Protestants who, contrary to the considered opinions of Luther, Calvin, Cranmer and Wesley, deny her perpetual virginity, even though these views are errors according to the founders of Lutheran, Reformed, Anglican and Methodist Christianity, respectively, and also to the Eastern Orthodox, the Oriental Orthodox, the Roman Catholic communion, and the traditional Old Catholics (I have no idea what the liberal Old Catholic Union of Utrecht, which expelled the Polish National Catholic Church for rejecting gay marriage and changes to the sacrament of ordination, thinks about Mariology).

 

[The Liturgist]

And that they are all knowing all present hearing all prayers on Earth to them all at the same time and able to fulfill the requests made of them... a bit like deity.

Is 8:19 " When they say to you, “Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter,” should a people not consult their God? Should they consult the dead in behalf of the living?"

You are changing that to "they SHOULD feel free to consult the dead in behalf of the living as long as they go directly to the dead and not via some living person like a spiritist whose job it is to contact the dead"

The only service the spiritist provides is a pathway to get in contact with the dead. Your argument becomes "who needs spiritists - we are all spiritists able to get in direct contact with the dead".

It would be like saying "It is a sin to go to Joe because he can pick potatoes since you can already pick potatoes yourself". Which trivializes the concept of sin.

When Saul wants to contact the dead - in this case dead saint like Samuel - he needs to go to a witch having a familiar spirit who can conduct a seance and "bring up for me whomever I shall name....by thy familiar spirit".

It is very clear that Saul was not already in free and open communion with the dead - but thought the witch was able to do it.

=======================

The alternative to the "we are all spiritists so no need to go contact one" idea - is "NOBODY" can contact the dead and the only way spiritists are doing it is via a deceptive familiar spirit who is pretending to be the dead person.

In which case (just as in the garden of Eden with Eve) - the unsuspecting person thinks they are going to get one thing - but instead are coming into contact with the enemy of the gospel in disguise as whatever the person is seeking. And in THAT scenario it is no wonder God warns us against falling for such a ruse.

That would be a wayy more serious issue than "It is a sin to go to Joe because he can pick potatoes since you can already pick potatoes yourself"

The problem with all of this is that the saints in Heaven are alive. As far as Samuel, some Church Fathers believed the apparition was him, some believe it was chicanery on the part of the Witch of Endor, and some believe it was a demon (since this all happened on Endor, I think it was the ghost of Emperor Palpatine myself).

 

[BobRyan]

Is 8:19 " When they say to you, “Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter,” should a people not consult their God? Should they consult the dead in behalf of the living?"

You are changing that to "they SHOULD feel free to consult the dead in behalf of the living as long as they go directly to the dead and not via some living person like a spiritist whose job it is to contact the dead"

The only service the spiritist provides is a pathway to get in contact with the dead. Your argument becomes "who needs spiritists - we are all spiritists able to get in direct contact with the dead".

The problem with all of this is that the saints in Heaven are alive.

Paul calls them "the dead" and so does Isaiah 8:19 so no matter what you may prefer to call them - the Bible reference is clear. Even the Catholic Catechism refers to it as "communion with the dead" #101

1 Thess 4:13
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore, comfort one another with these words.


1 Cor 15:
29 For otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them? 30 Why are we also in danger every hour? ...

35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?”

So the "person" is referred to as "the dead" and the question addressed is "what kind of body do the dead get raised with" so a "body" is something they "have" not something they "are".

Same thing in Matt 22 where the term "the dead" is a reference to the persons them selves - specifically "Abraham, Isaac, Jacob" not to their dusty remains some place in a tomb.

So the terms used to identify them are similar in both OT and NT

As far as Samuel, some Church Fathers believed the apparition was him, some believe it was chicanery on the part of the Witch of Endor, and some believe it was a demon

Even so - it is clear that Saul did not have access to Samuel and thought a witch and a demon were the only way to make contact.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

One thing this this thread has clarified for me is that you disrespect Mary by denying her the same respect that she is given by God in the Bible.

No not at all. All my posts have only stated that Mary is no more important according to the scriptures than the least of Gods' saint's and she just like all of us was a sinner in need of Gods' salvation. I would view her on the same level as anyone of God's people in the bible (e.g. the Apostles, prophets etc). By the way, when I mean "saints" I mean anyone that believes and follows Gods' Word. God's saints as defined in the scriptures is simply all those who keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus and believe Gods' Word (see Revelation 14:12).

Take Care.

 

[The Liturgist]

Paul calls them "the dead" and so does Isaiah 8:19 so no matter what you may prefer to call them - the Bible reference is clear. Even the Catholic Catechism refers to it as "communion with the dead" #101

1 Thess 4:13
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore, comfort one another with these words.


1 Cor 15:
29 For otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them? 30 Why are we also in danger every hour? ...

35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?”

So the "person" is referred to as "the dead" and the question addressed is "what kind of body do the dead get raised with" so a "body" is something they "have" not something they "are".

Same thing in Matt 22 where the term "the dead" is a reference to the persons them selves - specifically "Abraham, Isaac, Jacob" not to their dusty remains some place in a tomb.

So the terms used to identify them are similar in both OT and NT

This argument doesn’t work because we are promised eternal life; our bodies die, to be resurrected later, but our souls live in Heaven. This is why we say of Christ that He despoiled Hell. This is the faith of the early Church and of most Christian churches, but even if I accepted soul sleep, which I reject on the basis of the Wesleyan quadrilateral, it is still different from death. However, it is the doctrine of the Fathers and of the traditional Protestant, Orthodox and Catholic churches that following a particular judgement, our souls repose in Heaven or wind up in Hell, prior to the Last Judgement, when we will stand before Christ Pantocrator reunited with our bodies, with those who accept His mercy entering into the world to come and those who refuse it being relegated to firery gehenna for all eternity. Choosing His mercy should be a no brainer, but some people really hate God, and in hating God, they torture themselves; God, being all loving, is neither an instrument of annhilation nor of torture.

The interesting Byzantine explanation @prodromos and @GreekOrthodox can verify is that in the World to Come, we will all be in the immediate presence of God, hence there is no night, because we are illumined by the uncreated light of Tabor. However, because the pure love of God is a consuming fire, those who hate Him will experience His presence as pure torture, and this experience, which is the reaction to divine grace experienced by the misotheist, is the actual meaning of the Wrath of God. Because wrath, if we make the mistake of engaging in anthropomorphology rather than understanding Scripture both literally and metaphorically, according to the methods of both ancient schools of exegesis, contradicts the principle of divine immutability and is incompatible with the Christological assurance that God is love, which God proved by dying to procure our Salvation.

Even so - it is clear that Saul did not have access to Samuel and thought a witch and a demon were the only way to make contact.

While it is true that Saul thought he needed to use a witch, it is not clear whether the apparition was a demon, the witch herself engaging in a magic trick, or the holy prophet speaking from Hades, before being rescued by our Lord in the Harrowing of Hell (which is why the Apostles Creed says He descended to Hell, and why the oldest Paschal hymns are about Christ defeating and despoiling and emptying Hell).

At ant rate, since the Fathers of the Early Church could not agree what the apparition was, the matter cannot be called “clear” in an ecumenical context.

 

[The Liturgist]

Edit: post changed so as to be a standalone post.

The holiness of the blessed Virgin Mary stems from the fact she did give birth to God, and raised Him as a son, and we see the power of intercessory prayers of the Theotokos with the Water into Wine incident, and we see God’s love for her when He from the cross entrusted her to the care of the Apostle John, and vice versa, and in that St. John the Beloved Disciple was the only one of the twelve to not receive a crown of martyrdom, although he was persecuted and received the crown of a confessor for the faith, but instead died peacefully, we can see him as prototypical of the laity, so when Christ entrusts John and Mary to each other, He is also entrusting her with us, and us with her.

Thus, the Mother of God becomes the Great-Godmother, so to speak, of the Church, being a mother to the motherless and a godmother to the godmotherless and a grandmother to the grandmotherless and a maternal figure to young Christians still blessed with living mothers, fathers, godmothers and grandmothers.

 

[The Liturgist]

So, to summarize:

• Jesus Christ is God
• Mary gave birth to God
• Jesus Christ loves us, and God the Father would ensure that the mother who would raise God the Son, the only begotten Son and Word of God, up to be the Son of Man, would also love us (note: there is no disharmony between the three divine persons of the Holy Trinity).
• The saints in Heaven are alive in Christ, even when their bodies are defunct.
• The body of the Theotokos is alive, however, because when she died she was assumed bodily, as we celebrate on August 15th, in what the Eastern Orthodox call the Dormition and the Roman Catholics and Oriental Orthodox call the Assumption.
• The assumption of a deceased saint into Heaven and their resurrection happened before with Moses, who was with St. Elias (St. Elijah the Prophet) at the Holy Transfiguration, traditionally commemorated on August 6th but in several churches now oddly commemorated on the last Sunday before Lent. Enoch was also likely assumed while living.
• Praying to Mary, even asking her to save us, is not a violation of the Second Commandment because it is not worship, because worship requires sacrifice, and the only sacrifices performed by the Christian church are the bloodless and rational mercy of peace and sacrifice of praise that is the Holy Eucharist, and likewise the certain other mysteries such as Baptism and Chrismation, and Holy Matrimony and Ordination, and the Oil of Healing and Sacramental Reconciliation. And as Fr. Damick explained in this article, praying to a saint for salvation is scriptural. And there is nothing pagan about venerating the Mother of God.
  
• That said, it is an error to suggest she is co-redemptrix as the Ida Peerdeman ; Fifth Dogma sect wants the Roman Catholic Church to do, on the basis of purported private revelations from an entity calling itself “The Lady formerly known as Mary” which the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith most recently under Josef Cardinal Ratzinger before he became Pope Benedict XVI, if I remember right.
• It is also an error, according to Wesley, Cranmer, Calvin and Luther and the Orthodox, Catholics and Assyrians to deny the perpetual virginity of St. Mary.
• It is de facto and de jure Nestorianism to say that Mary was the mother of Christ but not the mother of God; Nestorianism is a legitimate form of Nicene Christianity, however, as Christology goes, it has a number of logical problems compared to Chalcedonianism, which even Nestorius later endorsed, or the Miaphysite Christology of the Oriental Orthodox, because it creates an arbitrary division between God the Word and Jesus Christ, which in turn makes the exegesis of John 1:1-18 logically challenging (I think Theodore of Mopsuestia may have done this, but I have no idea how).
• For these reasons, the majority of Christians are Chalcedonian or Chalcedonian-equivalent, and the benefits of this are immense, because various criticisms of the Gospels become inapplicable, and communicatio idiomatum eliminates the need to split hairs over whether the human Jesus or the divine Logos engaged in a specific act. And most importantly, whereas with Nestorianism you have either one person with a separate human and divine hypostasis, or in some extreme forms, two persons, one human and one divine, united with a single divine will and a single identity (Diodore of Tarsus argued for this, I believe, and I am not sure it is Nicene), with Chalcedonian or Miaphysite Christology, you have one person, whose human and divine natures are united in one hypostasis, without change, confusion, separation or division.

 

[The Liturgist]

Please forgive me but I see all your claims here as unbiblical, and unsupported by scripture. God's Word in the 10 commandments tells us not to make idols and bow down to them in Exodus 20:3-7 by doing this we do not blaspheme the name of Mary but God himself according to the scriptures.

Did you read my post? Because forgive me, but your post has nothing to do with anything I posted, because I did not advocate making idols and bowing down to them. I am opposed to idolatry. I also did not refer to the Blessed Virgin Mary as the Queen of Heaven.

There actually is a heretical cult called the Palmerian Catholic Church, headquartered in Spain and notoriously secretive, and regarded as heretical by the Roman Catholic Church and everyone else, which is not Christian according to CF.com, as they do not follow the Nicene Creed and they rewrote the Bible. They emerged in the chaos that followed Cardinal Bugnini’s imposition of the Novus Ordo Missae, and at first appeared to be a traditional Latin mass group like the SSPX, however, they elected their own Pope and soon began departing dramatically from established Roman Catholic and Christian doctrines. They revived the ancient Collyridian heresy from the fourth century by claiming that St. Mary is present along with our Lord in the Eucharist, which has the effect of making the Eucharist a sacrifice to the Mother of God, who is not God and is not adorable; only God, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost is worthy of adoration and sacrificial service, which are the two components of worship.

The Blessed Virgin Mary is worthy of hyperdoulia, or extreme veneration, however, as the Mother of God.

By the way, for anyone reading this, if you wish to reply to this or another thread of mine, please reply to my specific arguments in your own words, because I write my replies by hand and do not copy and paste material from polemical websites. Also please provide a summary of any videos you link to, because I am very busy preparing for two Christmas Eve liturgies.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Did you read my post? Because forgive me, but your post has nothing to do with anything I posted, because I did not advocate making idols and bowing down to them. I am opposed to idolatry. I also did not refer to the Blessed Virgin Mary as the Queen of Heaven.

There actually is a heretical cult called the Palmerian Catholic Church, headquartered in Spain and notoriously secretive, and regarded as heretical by the Roman Catholic Church and everyone else, which is not Christian according to CF.com, as they do not follow the Nicene Creed and they rewrote the Bible. They emerged in the chaos that followed Cardinal Bugnini’s imposition of the Novus Ordo Missae, and at first appeared to be a traditional Latin mass group like the SSPX, however, they elected their own Pope and soon began departing dramatically from established Roman Catholic and Christian doctrines. They revived the ancient Collyridian heresy from the fourth century by claiming that St. Mary is present along with our Lord in the Eucharist, which has the effect of making the Eucharist a sacrifice to the Mother of God, who is not God and is not adorable; only God, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost is worthy of adoration and sacrificial service, which are the two components of worship.

The Blessed Virgin Mary is worthy of hyperdoulia, or extreme veneration, however, as the Mother of God.

By the way, for anyone reading this, if you wish to reply to this or another thread of mine, please reply to my specific arguments in your own words, because I write my replies by hand and do not copy and paste material from polemical websites. Also please provide a summary of any videos you link to, because I am very busy preparing for two Christmas Eve liturgies.

Yes I did. As posted earlier, please forgive me I did not see your claims you were making in your earlier post as biblical, or supported by scripture.

Take Care

 

[The Liturgist]

Yes I did read your post. As posted earlier, please forgive me but I see all your claims here as unbiblical, and unsupported by scripture.

Take Care

All of my claims? Really? How about where I declare that the Virgin Mary should not be worshipped? How about my reference to Moses and Elijah, who were present at the Transfiguration according to Scripture? How about where I say Jesus Christ is God?

Because I criticize both neo-Collyridians who inappropriately worship the Blessed Virgin Mary, and neo-Dicomarianites who do not venerate her, if you reject everything I claim you contradict yourself, which is frustrating to me, because I would prefer it if people would read my posts before replying to them.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

All of my claims? Really? How about where I declare that the Virgin Mary should not be worshipped? How about my reference to Moses and Elijah, who were present at the Transfiguration according to Scripture? How about where I say Jesus Christ is God?

Because I criticize both neo-Collyridians who inappropriately worship the Blessed Virgin Mary, and neo-Dicomarianites who do not venerate her, if you reject everything I claim you contradict yourself, which is frustrating to me, because I would prefer it if people would read my posts before replying to them.

No just your claims in application to Mary and praying to dead saints to no scripture support in context to your original post. I already stated this a number of times now. Why are you trying to change the topic of discussion and post references?

 

[The Liturgist]

No just your false claims in application to Mary and praying to dead saints from and application to no scripture support in context to your original post. I already stated this a number of times now. Why are you trying to change the topic of discussion and post references?

You said you rejected all my claims. Now, by the way, I made no claims which were to my knowledge false; if you believe I have made an error, please review the specific claim I made and explain why it is erroneous. I might even change my mind; for instance I am not 100% sure I am right on the core question of whether a glorified saint can be individually blasphemed or if all slander is blasphemous.

Also, to reiterate, I do not believe that dead saints exist. And even if they did, the Virgin Mary was assumed into heaven bodily like her Son when she died, and as Moses was resurrected in Heaven, so too was Mary.

So no matter what, the Mother of God is alive in Heaven even as her child, the Only Begotten Son and Word of God, our Savior Jesus Christ, is alive in Heaven, and for that matter, so are Moses and Elijah, for they were seen by the Holy Apostles at the Transfiguration.

This applies even if we were to regard the majority of saints as being dead because they have not been resurrected in the flesh as of yet (which also assumes that time in Heaven is synchronized with Earth, which several scriptural verses cast doubt on; it seems to me entirely reasonable to say that the Church Triumphant has already been resurrected, from its perspective, but owing to the eternal nature of eternal life, the saints intercede for us in the present by praying, in eternity, to the eternal God).