Do you blaspheme Mary?

[High Fidelity]

It's not possible to blaspheme against Mary. Mary is not God or equal to God.

 

[Michie]

Revelation 13:6 (DRB) And he opened his mouth unto blasphemies against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Cf. Jude 1:8, 10.

Why are the offenses against Blessed Virgin Mary are called blasphemies instead of sin?

.

 

[pescador]

How can you blaspheme the name of Mary? Mary is just like you and me. She was a sinful human being like we all are and in need of God's salvation like we all do. Making a God of Mary breaks Gods' commandments *Exodus 20:3. Making idols of Mary and bowing down to them breaks Gods' commandments *Exodus 20:4-5. Who should we believe and follow here; God or man? For me only God's Words are true *Romans 3:4 and we should believe and follow them Acts of the Apostles 5:29. Making a God out of Mary is an unbiblical false teaching. Mary is not God and Mary worship as the "Queen of Heaven mother of God" has it's origins in the pagan teachings of Ishtar (see here and here linked)

Take Care.

Great post! Thanks!

 

[pescador]

I completely agree with everything you’ve said here. Personally I have never prayed to Mary or the Saints because I don’t see any point in doing it but at the same time I don’t see anything wrong with it as long as they are prayers for supplication not prayers of worship. I see the idea behind the prayers to the Saints as a wonderful sign of faith in the gospel that the Saints are very much alive and well with The Lord.

All believers are saints. Romans 1:7, "To all those loved by God in Rome, called to be saints: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ!"

Romans 15:26, "For Macedonia and Achaia are pleased to make some contribution for the poor among the saints in Jerusalem."

1 Corinthians 6:2, "Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you not competent to settle trivial suits?"

... and many other places. All those who believe and are in Christ are saints. There is no special category in Scripture of "saints" outside of all believers.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

.

Excelent post Michie,

As a Lutheran, I can not buy into the Immaculate Conception; but the rest is spot on!

 

[Michie]

Excelent post Michie,

As a Lutheran, I can not buy into the Immaculate Conception; but the rest is spot on!

I get it. I was not always Catholic either. Thanks Mark.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

All believers are saints.

... and many other places. All those who believe and are in Christ are saints. There is no special category in Scripture of "saints" outside of all believers.

I was once taught as you say, and bought into it, but what you say is not consistent with the Bible says.

Jesus says not everyone that says to Me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but those that do the will of My Father.

James 2 says You say you have faith and believe in One God, you do well, The Demons believe the same and tremble. Faith without works is dead

Luke 5 says Jesus came to call sinners to repentance. Luke 13 says unless you repent you will perish. Strive to enter by the narrow gate, few there will be that find it.


This does not say that anyone that believes in Jesus is a saint. You have to do what He says.
If you love me, keep My commandments

it is in the spirit of humility that we ask Mary and the Saints to pray for us. We do not arrogantly go around saying, I believe in Jesus, I am going to heaven. We say I believe, help thou my unbelief, and cooperate with the grace of God to repent and purge ourselves from sin.

Paul says to run the race, fight the good fight only those that endure to the end will be saved
Be faithful unto death, and I will give you a crown of life Rev 2:10

This does not speak of mere belief, but faithful repentance.

 

[pescador]

I was once taught as you say, and bought into it, but what you say is not consistent with the Bible says.

Jesus says not everyone that says to Me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but those that do the will of My Father.

James 2 says You say you have faith and believe in One God, you do well, The Demons believe the same and tremble. Faith without works is dead

Luke 5 says Jesus came to call sinners to repentance. Luke 13 says unless you repent you will perish. Strive to enter by the narrow gate, few there will be that find it.


This does not say that anyone that believes in Jesus is a saint. You have to do what He says.
If you love me, keep My commandments

it is in the spirit of humility that we ask Mary and the Saints to pray for us. We do not arrogantly go around saying, I believe in Jesus, I am going to heaven. We say I believe, help thou my unbelief, and cooperate with the grace of God to repent and purge ourselves from sin.

Paul says to run the race, fight the good fight only those that endure to the end will be saved
Be faithful unto death, and I will give you a crown of life Rev 2:10

This does not speak of mere belief, but faithful repentance.

This may be your doctrine but I disagree with it. What you say is not consistent with the Bible says.

You pick a verse from here (out of context) and a verse from there (out of context) to justify your personal doctrine but what you say doesn't agree with the new covenant as a whole.

Jesus spoke at different times in different places to different people, so it's important to a read the Bible in context.

Jesus says not everyone that says to Me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but those that do the will of My Father. Matthew 7:21-24 was spoken to Jews, not to believing Christians.

"Faith without works" is contrary to what Paul wrote in Romans 3:27, "Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded! By what principle? Of works? No, but by the principle of faith!"

We agree on one thing: Luke's gospel was written to unbelievers. "Jesus came to call sinners to repentance" It has no bearing on those of us who are Christians, since we are not sinners.

Your most glaring mistake is when you write "This does not say that anyone that believes in Jesus is a saint". Every Christian is a saint: sanctified by the sacrifice of Christ. This is a fundamental truth of Christianity. The whole idea that only a certain class of believers are saints goes contrary to the clear teachings of the Bible.

When you write that "you have to do what He says. If you love me, keep My commandments" it is clear that you don't understand justification. We are not justified by works -- what we do -- but by faith in Christ. Galatians 3:1-5, "You foolish Galatians! Who has cast a spell on you? Before your eyes Jesus Christ was vividly portrayed as crucified! The only thing I want to learn from you is this: Did you receive the Spirit by doing the works of the law or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? Although you began with the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by human effort? Have you suffered so many things for nothing?—if indeed it was for nothing. Does God then give you the Spirit and work miracles among you by your doing the works of the law or by your believing what you heard?"

Galatians 3:23-25, " Now before faith came we were held in custody under the law, being kept as prisoners until the coming faith would be revealed. Thus the law had become our guardian until Christ, so that we could be declared righteous by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian."

I am grieved that you cannot accept the righteousness that comes as a free gift from God. It has nothing to do with "works", otherwise it would not be by God's grace.

Galatians 3:26, "For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith."

Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast."

We should all go around saying, "I believe in Jesus, I am going to heaven", as that is the fundamental truth of Christianity.

That is all I will say about this, as it has nothing to do with the OP: blaspheming Mary.

 

[The Liturgist]

This may be your doctrine but I disagree with it. What you say is not consistent with the Bible says.

You pick a verse from here (out of context) and a verse from there (out of context) to justify your personal doctrine but what you say doesn't agree with the new covenant as a whole.

Jesus spoke at different times in different places to different people, so it's important to a read the Bible in context.

Jesus says not everyone that says to Me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but those that do the will of My Father. Matthew 7:21-24 was spoken to Jews, not to believing Christians.

"Faith without works" is contrary to what Paul wrote in Romans 3:27, "Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded! By what principle? Of works? No, but by the principle of faith!"

We agree on one thing: Luke's gospel was written to unbelievers. "Jesus came to call sinners to repentance" It has no bearing on those of us who are Christians, since we are not sinners.

Your most glaring mistake is when you write "This does not say that anyone that believes in Jesus is a saint". Every Christian is a saint: sanctified by the sacrifice of Christ. This is a fundamental truth of Christianity. The whole idea that only a certain class of believers are saints goes contrary to the clear teachings of the Bible.

When you write that "you have to do what He says. If you love me, keep My commandments" it is clear that you don't understand justification. We are not justified by works -- what we do -- but by faith in Christ. Galatians 3:1-5, "You foolish Galatians! Who has cast a spell on you? Before your eyes Jesus Christ was vividly portrayed as crucified! The only thing I want to learn from you is this: Did you receive the Spirit by doing the works of the law or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? Although you began with the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by human effort? Have you suffered so many things for nothing?—if indeed it was for nothing. Does God then give you the Spirit and work miracles among you by your doing the works of the law or by your believing what you heard?"

Galatians 3:23-25, " Now before faith came we were held in custody under the law, being kept as prisoners until the coming faith would be revealed. Thus the law had become our guardian until Christ, so that we could be declared righteous by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian."

I am grieved that you cannot accept the righteousness that comes as a free gift from God. It has nothing to do with "works", otherwise it would not be by God's grace.

Galatians 3:26, "For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith."

Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast."

We should all go around saying, "I believe in Jesus, I am going to heaven", as that is the fundamental truth of Christianity.

That is all I will say about this, as it has nothing to do with the OP: blaspheming Mary.

You care a lot about eisegesis and avoiding it, but regarding Faith and Works, it is eisegetical to quote the Pauline epistles without quoting the Gospels and the Epistle of St. James, which does not invalidate sola fide but it does indicate a lack of authentic faith where works exist apart from faith.

All believers are saints. Romans 1:7, "To all those loved by God in Rome, called to be saints: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ!"

Romans 15:26, "For Macedonia and Achaia are pleased to make some contribution for the poor among the saints in Jerusalem."

1 Corinthians 6:2, "Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you not competent to settle trivial suits?"

... and many other places. All those who believe and are in Christ are saints. There is no special category in Scripture of "saints" outside of all believers.

Saints more precisely are persons who are holy, since Saint means Holy, and from Paul’s usage we can say he was referring to the pious laity of the local churches, but obviously, even if they believed, the people who his letters direct be anathematized are not Saints, for example, those who preach a false Gospel, but every other true Christian is, which includes the faithful members of the Church Militant and the glorified members of the Church Triumphant, as well as the angelic host. There are also church buildings, holy objects, icons, relics, fragments of the Precious and Life Giving Cross or Saint Sepulchre in Jerusalem worthy of veneration, but these are not members of the Church but rather belong to the church as possesions, whose owner is Christ, therefore the leaders of the church as His servants are accountable for the proper use of His holy property for saving souls.

One can request the intercessory prayer of a Saint who is a member of the church militant or triumphant or an Angel, but obviously not an inanimate holy object since such inanimate objects are nh virtue of being inanimate, devoid of rational faculties. However, the holiness of these objects is never an intrinsic quality but instead connects to a divine person, so we can worship Christ by venerating the Cross, and likewise by venerating a living saint or a glorified saint in Heaven by kissing them or venerating their relics. In the case of the Blessed Virgin Mary, she was dead, but is alive again bodily, in Heaven, so like the Holy Prophets Moses, Enoch and Elias, is a special case. Interestingly St. Elias (Elijah) was assumed while still living, without having been resurrected like our Lord, God and Savior, but I would assume he has still been raised incorruptible, or perhaps as some eschatologies suggest he will be killed by the antichrist and will then be resurrected with everyone else.

Finally, I am coming to believe that slandering a human is blasphemy because we are icons of God, and slandering a living saint moreso because they are temples of the Holy Spirit, and slandering a saint who has reposed also, because they have received Theosis, but while God can be accidentally blasphemed by those deceived by heretics, like Unitarians who blaspheme Christ by denying He is God the Son, blasphemy of a human requires malice aforethought, like murder, which the Early Church and the Eastern Orthodox liken it to. I outlined my tentative position here: Do you blaspheme Mary?

This I should clarify has not become a firm doctrinal view of mine as I need to complete a Patristic study and review it with colleagues extensively, and even if I do make it a formal belief, I am unlikely to teach it in church because there are existing Patristic homilies about murder and blasphemy, and to reduce the risk of error and compensate for the fact my own homiletics leave something to be desired, I tend to use Patristic material as the source for my own preaching. For example I will take a long sermon of St. John Chrysostom that exegetes the scripture indicated by the lectionary and extract the key points. And I do credit my Patristic sources in the bulletin.

 

[The Liturgist]

Excelent post Michie,

As a Lutheran, I can not buy into the Immaculate Conception; but the rest is spot on!

We are of one accord.

 

[Hark]

Our Lord spoke to Sr. Lucia at Fatima and told her that there are 5 ways which His mother is blasphemed:

tima message is our personal contribution to holiness. Editor of FROM THE HOUSETOPS Magazine
"My daughter, the motive is simple: there are five ways in which people offend and blaspheme against the Immaculate Heart of Mary: ( 1) the blasphemies against the Immaculate Conception, (2) against her virginity, (3) against the Divine Maternity, refusing at the same time to accept her as the Mother of all mankind, (4) those who try publicly to implant in the children's hearts indifference, contempt, and even hatred against this Immaculate Mother, and (5) those who insult her directly in her sacred images

The definition of antichrist is "instead of Christ" or to be more precise "instead of the Son".

Scriptures are pointing us to Christ Jesus as the Holy Spirit in believers is doing in ministry to others.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Jesus said that if any wish to come to God the Father, it is by the only way provided and that is by His Son.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Especially in prayer because only the Son answers prayers so the Father may be glorified in the Son for answers to prayers.

John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

So the Lord would not say to anyone to go to Mary in prayer or seek these apparitions out.

Look at how Jesus defer the woman from honoring Mary to doing something else.

Luke 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. 28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

So when they stop honoring the son to honor Mary, they are not honoring the Father at all. The same goes for honoring the Holy Spirit because God wants to call sinners away from their spirits to a personal reconcile relationship with Him thru His Son.

So going to Jesus in prayer & worship is the will of God the Father as the holy Spirit, Whom is God as dwelling in us, is pointing us to go to the Son in prayer, fellowship, and worship in coming to God the Father in honoring Him.

Those who listens to these other spirits claiming it is the Lord, are not testing the spirits by the scripture to expose the lies coming from them because the spirit of the antichrist would take their eyes off of the Son in relating to God the Father whereas the real indwelling Holy Spirit would never do that and neither would the real Mary for why God would not send her to take their eyes off of the Son; the Bridegroom.

 

[pescador]

You care a lot about eisegesis and avoiding it, but regarding Faith and Works, it is eisegetical to quote the Pauline epistles without quoting the Gospels and the Epistle of St. James, which does not invalidate sola fide but it does indicate a lack of authentic faith where works exist apart from faith.




Saints more precisely are persons who are holy, since Saint means Holy, and from Paul’s usage we can say he was referring to the pious laity of the local churches, but obviously, even if they believed, the people who his letters direct be anathematized are not Saints, for example, those who preach a false Gospel, but every other true Christian is, which includes the faithful members of the Church Militant and the glorified members of the Church Triumphant, as well as the angelic host. There are also church buildings, holy objects, icons, relics, fragments of the Precious and Life Giving Cross or Saint Sepulchre in Jerusalem worthy of veneration, but these are not members of the Church but rather belong to the church as possesions, whose owner is Christ, therefore the leaders of the church as His servants are accountable for the proper use of His holy property for saving souls.

One can request the intercessory prayer of a Saint who is a member of the church militant or triumphant or an Angel, but obviously not an inanimate holy object since such inanimate objects are nh virtue of being inanimate, devoid of rational faculties. However, the holiness of these objects is never an intrinsic quality but instead connects to a divine person, so we can worship Christ by venerating the Cross, and likewise by venerating a living saint or a glorified saint in Heaven by kissing them or venerating their relics. In the case of the Blessed Virgin Mary, she was dead, but is alive again bodily, in Heaven, so like the Holy Prophets Moses, Enoch and Elias, is a special case. Interestingly St. Elias (Elijah) was assumed while still living, without having been resurrected like our Lord, God and Savior, but I would assume he has still been raised incorruptible, or perhaps as some eschatologies suggest he will be killed by the antichrist and will then be resurrected with everyone else.

Finally, I am coming to believe that slandering a human is blasphemy because we are icons of God, and slandering a living saint moreso because they are temples of the Holy Spirit, and slandering a saint who has reposed also, because they have received Theosis, but while God can be accidentally blasphemed by those deceived by heretics, like Unitarians who blaspheme Christ by denying He is God the Son, blasphemy of a human requires malice aforethought, like murder, which the Early Church and the Eastern Orthodox liken it to. I outlined my tentative position here: Do you blaspheme Mary?

This I should clarify has not become a firm doctrinal view of mine as I need to complete a Patristic study and review it with colleagues extensively, and even if I do make it a formal belief, I am unlikely to teach it in church because there are existing Patristic homilies about murder and blasphemy, and to reduce the risk of error and compensate for the fact my own homiletics leave something to be desired, I tend to use Patristic material as the source for my own preaching. For example I will take a long sermon of St. John Chrysostom that exegetes the scripture indicated by the lectionary and extract the key points. And I do credit my Patristic sources in the bulletin.

Thank you for your opinion. However, I consider the Bible to be the voice of authority, not some extra-Biblical doctrine created by others.

 

[HARK!]

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