Do you believe that every believer is filled with the Spirit when they are saved?

[JEBrady]

I guess the posts presented what I think. The Holy Spirit presented the truth to their spirits via revelation prior to their minds receiving it. It is not physical hearing that is referred to in Rom 10, it is spiritual hearing.
But beyond that, I would like to hear from others how they could have believed, were saved, received the Holy Spirit, spoken in tongues and prophecied.... all before they hear the gospel with their ears.

The reason I asked is because I thought your post was interesting. More in the Acts 11 reference, where it's more plainly stated. Just wondered what you might have to say, as it figures highly in my thoughts that one must hear physically the Gospel. I'll have to run your references prayerfully and see what I get in my spirit.

 

[RevKidd]

1 Corinthians 12
1 Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant.
2 You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. 3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

Paul says that if we confess Christ is Lord than we can only do that by the Power of the Holy Spirit.

Salvation is the occurence of an unbeliever proclaiming that Christ is Lord.

There are many misconceptions about the 'Baptism". One must Read 1 Corinthians 12 to understand the true purpose of all the gifts. However pentecostalism has built doctrine from a historical book that has only taken snapshots of the first century events. Rather doctrine should be built from instructional books such as the Pauline Epistles. We find harmony with the scriptures when we build Pentecostal doctrine starting with Paul and then allowing Acts to fit that doctrine. When we go the other way we find contradictions between doctrine built on Acts and the teachings of Paul.

Examples are this:

11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

HE is the Holy Spirit. And according to Paul it is the job of the Holy Spirit to decide which gift we are to have and excersize. However mainstream pentecostalism has people believing that Tongues is the ONLY INITIAL EVIDENCE. Why is that taught. Because they take their ideas soley from Acts. They don't look at what Paul teaches. Tongues is prevalent in Acts for one sole reason. Evangelism. Not Evidence.

Paul says that Tongues is for the Unbeliever, not the believer. So why as Charismatics do we look to tongues as our evidence. Paul says that when we proclaim Christ is Lord that it is evidence of the Holy Spirit.

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.
28 And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?
30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?
31 But eagerly desire the greater gifts

Another passage that clearly goes against mainstream Charismatisim. Paul clearly says that if the body is to exist and function like a human body. Than that body is to have members function in different ways. We all can't be tongue talkers, hearlers, miracle workers. But that doesn't we can't either. I firmly believe that the Holy Spirit will empower each believer with the appropriate gift at the appropriate time. That is why tongues is so prevalent in Acts. It's main purpose is evangelism. Why does Paul speak in tongues more than the church. BECAUSE HE WAS A MISSIONARY. Do you honestly think Paul is talking about the kind of gibberish that goes on in todays churches. The type of unintelligable yaddayaddayaddyad stuff. No. The Holy SPirit empowered Paul to go to foreign lands and speak their language. What tool of the Holy Spirit Paul was.

Now some may argue that Tongues is a prayer language. I will agree. And that that tongue may be spoken as a mystery. I will agree as well. But only to those who have the gift. This is not credance to the idea that all should speak in tongues.

All believers have the infilling of the holy spirit. THey must, as Paul taught, to earnestly desire the best gifts.

 

[LittleRocketBoy]

The reason I asked is because I thought your post was interesting. More in the Acts 11 reference, where it's more plainly stated. Just wondered what you might have to say, as it figures highly in my thoughts that one must hear physically the Gospel. I'll have to run your references prayerfully and see what I get in my spirit.

When I first "knew" I believed something, I, like others, mistakened it for instant revelation. I thought that God had just at that moment given me a bit of faith or "belief" regarding a subject. But I was wrong. God had given me the "revelation knowledge" at some point before my mind ever became conscious of it. It was in there all along... like a seed, or an engrafted branch. Abiding, growing, making links with other spiritual words and branches... adding to my overall knowledge and likeness to the full image of Christ.
I can remember one such event. I used to work the night shift and would walk the long dark road home each night. It was after midnight and I was on a particually dark stretch of road. I have always had a habit of meditating on the word when I would walk... and that night was no different. As I walked, I suddenly became aware of a truth floating up into my mind. It was a truth I had been seeking for and needed in order to put a number of other truths together into a full picture. And there it was before me... clear as day. Complete with scriptures and understanding. Now at the time I thought that the Spirit of truth had just then at that moment given me that bit of spiritual knowledge in my spirit. But I see now that it had been imparted at some point before... and it was just at that moment surfacing due to the meditation. Now I realize that many would think that the revelation came as a result of the meditation.. but actually, all the meditation did was surface the gold. Like a miner digging for precious metal, the meditation brough up the treasure to my conscious mind.
One of the most important truths I ever learned in regards to this topic is found in James 1.

Jam 1:5 KJVA
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

If you ask for revelation, wisdom, belief, or faith (all of which come from the same source and arrive in the same manner), begin to thank God at that very moment that the wisdom has been given you. It is in there.. no doubts, no questions. It just may take a while to surface. Once you ask for the wisdom... them begin meditating on the subject and know that the information you seek will surface. It is in there... regardless of what you feel or think. Thinking has nothing to with receiving spiritual knowledge from God. It is always revelation (aka inspiration).
Spiritual knowledge exists, is "communicated', and arrives in ways totally foreign to and unrecognizable to the soulical man. Your mind can no more receive and understand spiritual information than an Apple computer can run PC code. Totally different from start to finish. The soul (mind) is a mere bystander to operations of the spirit. It basically has no clue as to what is going on. Meditation is the process by which spiritual knowledge is discovered, interpreted, and transformed into words our minds can understand. We have all at one time or another known there was something in there... something difficult to put into words. It was a truth.. a word of praise, edification, joy, or some other spiritual movement. Meditation is the process by which we take those spiritual words and transform them into words our minds can understand.
This is why it is important to know that this "revelation" or wisdom comes into our spirit immediately upon request. But it always takes time for it to formulate, connect, and clarify in our minds.
The difficult thing is formulating the questions! You cannot ask for wisdom when you do not even know what to ask for! You do not know what you do not know!
So this is the growing process in the believer. As more wisdom is added to your spirit, you become more aware of what questions to ask. You cannot seek what you do not know exists. You cannot ask for knowlege what you do not know is there. You cannot find that which you do not know is missing.
This is the basis for "word growth" in the believer. Learning what is missing, asking for wisdom to fill the gaps, and meditating to bring that received revelation to the concious mind.









For Peter, belief was not the result of any Choice, act of will, or decision.

John 1
35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;
36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!
37 And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.
38 Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and saith unto them, "What seek ye?" They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being interpreted,Master,) where dwellest thou?
39 He saith unto them, "Come and see." They came and saw where he dwelt, and abode with him that day: for it was about the tenth hour.
40 One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother.
41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.
42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, "Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas," which is by interpretation, A stone.

Here we see the very first instance of Peter hearing about Jesus. There very first sentence Peter ever heard about Jesus was from his own brother Andrew... and it was this:
"We have found the Messiah" which is being interpreted The Christ.

Andrew had heard it directly from John the baptist who declare Jesus to be the Son of God and the lamb of God who would take away the sin of the world:

John 1
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
34And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

So from day one it was being declared openly who Jesus was. He was the Christ. The very first words Peter heard about Jesus were a declaration from his own brother that Jesus was the Christ.

Jesus repeatedly told the disciples and random people who He was:

John 4
25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh,which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
26Jesus saith unto her, "I that speak unto thee am he.
John 9
35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, " Dost thou believe on the Son of God? "
36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
37 And Jesus said unto him, "Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. "
38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

So it is abundantly clear here that Peter (as well as many others) knew Jesus was the Christ by the testimony of Jesus John the baptist from the very beginning.

Lets jump now to Matthew 16.

Matthew 16
13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, "Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? "
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some,Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them,"But whom say ye that I am? "
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, "Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. "


This is a startling passage for those who insist that belief comes by fleshy hearing and soulical choice. Even tho Peter heard repeatedly from the physical presence of Jesus that He was the Christ, Jesus states unequivocally that Peter's belief WAS NOT the result of hearing it via the words spoken by flesh and blood... NOT EVEN THE WORDS OF JESUS HIMSELF! Jesus said Peter believed as a direct result of a personal Spirit to spirit revelation from the Father!! So now we not only see that belief comes only as a result of Spirit to spirit revelation... but we also see Jesus completely refuting the notion that belief comes as a result of any flesh or soulical participation! He got the belief into his spirit by revelation only.

Why is this important? Read on!


Matthew 16
18 "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. "
19 "And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. "
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

This topic is "revelation knowledge", and Jesus said that this was the means by which He was going to build His church! Not by mental assent... not by logical reasoning or any other soulical functionality including emotional, choice, etc etc .

The words spoken were spiritual words spoken by Spirit to spirit.... not fleshy words spoken by soulical efforts to be decided on and evaluated by mental understanding.

To place belief into the logical and soulical realm is to deceive people into believing Jesus will build His church based on decisions made by us... not the word of the spoken word of God into men. It places the success/failure of the building of the church into the soulical, carnal, unrenewed minds of men.
That is dangerous and set people up for failure, defeat, and removes revelation knowledge as the key to the building of the Church and defeat of hell.







Even tho belief comes as a direct result of Spirit to spirit communication, that "revelatory" communication takes place only when there is the physical communication of the word described in the word as "preaching". It is important to see that even tho these two communication occur concurrently... it is the only the spiritual communication that effects belief into the spirit. As we have seen in the three studies I have presented so far (there will be more I assure you!) belief comes by spirits hearing Spirit words... not as a result of soulical or physical efforts. All the preaching does for the soulical man is to give his mind an exterior mental reflection of what occurred in his spirit. The belief that has been birthed into his heart will have a soulical/mental "reason" that describes and becomes the fuel for the renewed mind. But by itself it does not and cannot effect faith in the heart... as we see in the experience of Peter.
Thanks for such good questions.
One thing about revelation knowledge. Sometimes there is information in there that you do not even have words for. It takes meditation and study to get it out into the mental area in words the mind can understand. Questions like yours actually help these mentalconstructs and associations to emerge!

 

[RevKidd]

Also trying to prove that the infilling happens as a second event based on Lukes accounts in Acts 10, 19, is a somewhat circumstantial and if judged properly would never stand in a court of hermeneutical law.

Luke can only describe the events in a literary order. However those events may have occured simultaneously, yet recorded in a literary order. Since there is no instruction as to How this "Infilling" is suppose to happen in the Bible, one must conclude using all of scripture that the infilling happens at Salvation. But it is the excersizing of this new power that may requires other variables.

Remember. Paul says it is the Holy Spirit that decides which of the 9 gifts we are to use.

It is the Holy Spirit that gives utterance. If one does not excersize a gift at salvation, than we must assume that it is the Holy Spirit's decision not the person himself.

Also, if one accepts Christ, how can he not have all the trinity as well. So theologically the idea of a second event after salvation is skeptical at best.

 

[JEBrady]

One thing about revelation knowledge. Sometimes there is information in there that you do not even have words for. It takes meditation and study to get it out into the mental area in words the mind can understand.

First, brother, thanks for taking the time to share this. I've had some very strong experiences on occasion in the spirit, and it's difficult to communicate. There have been times, when my soul was in anguish, and God visited me in a big way, and it "split" me- what happened in my spirit then was in spite of my soul. It's nice when the two are working together, and it seems like faith is the conduit between- "...but let him ask in faith, nothing doubting...".

I'm not sure all revelation comes after a time, I think some comes pretty quick. But I would say the only stuff I know as I ought to, has come to me by revelation. The soul, by itself, can misassociate anything. I find myself agreeing with much of your post.

 

[JimB]

It absolutely floors me that so many people can read the same exact Word and come away with so many different opinions.

This whole thread is "I believe" or "It's my opinion".... what happened to THE WORD IS THE WORD AND IT MEANS WHAT IT SAYS????

I just Googled "Baptism in the Spirit". If I didn't laugh, I'd be crying at the horribly convoluted beliefs that are out there in this world. Same with healing, prosperity, etc.

I am just glad that God was kind enough to put His Spirit in me when I got saved, and further imbued me with the Power of His Spirit when He baptised me in the Spirit a few years later. My life changed....my walk with Him changed....life has not been the same since.


Once you've experienced it...tasted it... you can no longer deny it.....(esp when the Word says it). Lack of knowledge, lack of experience can no longer be claimed when one has experienced the truth of His Word.

Is your only tool a hammer, Christina?

Of course, your beliefs are not in this mix because your beliefs are, of course, the only ones that are totally un-convoluted, right? You have got this all down perfect. The rest of us – that is the ones of us who do not share your infallible views - just don’t believe the Word for what it says, like you do. Right? Poor ignorant, silly, spiritually blind us. I am so glad you are here to keep us in line, Christina.

 

[Christina M]

Also trying to prove that the infilling happens as a second event based on Lukes accounts in Acts 10, 19, is a somewhat circumstantial and if judged properly would never stand in a court of hermeneutical law. /quote]


Sorry, sweetie... you are wrong.

Once you have experienced the SEPARATE indwelling of the Spirit....you will know... you cannot deny it.

My testimony would stand in any "court of hermeneutical law".

Quit trying to minimize the Word.

 

[Iollain]

I have come to believe (I am still working on this) that when a person comes to Christ the Holy Spirit in all His fullness takes up residence in the believer and she/he is “made to drink of that selfsame Spirit” (1 Cor. 12.13) and so is, among all the other things the Spirit brings to us, “filled” with the Spirit.

i think the Spirit takes up residence at different times in different people, because of the people in the Bible ....some of them recieved the Spirit when they believed, and some when they were laid hands on, and some at were 'baptised and recieved the Spirit'


Jhn 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.



i think people can ask for more of the Spirit.....





Luk 11:10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.


Luk 11:11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if [he ask] a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
Luk 11:12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?


and of course the Spirit is the only thing that helps us walk the walk, if you don't have the Spirit , you are none of His:



Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.


Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.


Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.


Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.


Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

What is commonly (and I believe inaccurately) labeled “the baptism of/in/by/with the Spirit” by Pentecostal believers is, in fact, the infilling of the Spirit (as Acts 2.4 plainly states, “they were all FILLED with the Holy Spirit&#8221 – more accurately a re-filling – of the Spirit, since they were originally filled when they were saved. This is not, technically, the baptism in/of/by/with the Spirit since that happened at the time they were saved and they were, at that time, “baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.”

maybe instead of a re-filling.......more of?


EDIT:


or maybe re-filling is a good word, but never totally empty?

 

[RevKidd]

Also trying to prove that the infilling happens as a second event based on Lukes accounts in Acts 10, 19, is a somewhat circumstantial and if judged properly would never stand in a court of hermeneutical law. /quote]


Sorry, sweetie... you are wrong.

Once you have experienced the SEPARATE indwelling of the Spirit....you will know... you cannot deny it.

My testimony would stand in any "court of hermeneutical law".

Quit trying to minimize the Word.

Sorry sweetie, I think your wrong.

I love how you share how your personal experience falls in line with the scripture you presented... O wait, you didn't, because you know that your experience was just like the other sheep that felt they needed to have the same experience as everyone else.

No one is trying to minimize the word

What proper interpretation does is allow scripture to interpret scripture. It analyzing scripture within the context of the entire cannon. Not 2000 years later, make scripture fit what WE think it says.

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 12 that NO one says that Christ is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. That would mean if someone confesses that Christ is Lord with a genuine repentant heart, then according to Paul under what power do they confess this.

All are filled. Just because someone doesn't have some physical, emotional, tongue filled rant at an alter does not make them any less filled than you. You just chose to copy and follow the sheep and mimmick everyone and everything else.

If God is a Trinity, how can we accept Christ. Be saved. Yet not have the other part of the trinity as well?

I will chose to allow the Holy Spirit to give me the utterance. I will chose to let the Holy Spirit empower me with the gifts HE chooses. Not what other says I need to have.

Read 1 Corinthians 12 and then ask yourself.

Are all filled according to Paul
How many gifts are there.
Do all members of the body of Christ have the same gifts.
Who decides what gifts we are to have.
Who are the gifts for?
What are the purpose of the gifts?
What are we suppose to desire?
What is the evidence of a second filling according to Paul?

 

[irenemcg]

All believers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, but not all believers are walking in the fulness of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Jesusmyfriend]

.

 

[JimB]

Jim, I've read some very astute posts by you, but this one has me nonplussed. I responded to the same post in Initial Evidence thread, with the following scripture. I just don't see how you could possibly state that what occurred in Acts 2:4 was not the baptism in the Holy Spirit, based on the word "filled". Can you elaborate at all on this? Quoted from previous post:

And what of these scriptures? How do you read them?
(my bold)

Matthew 3:11 (NKJV)
11 oI indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. pHe will baptize you with the Holy Spirit 1and fire. [1]
Luke 24:49 (NKJV)
49 sBehold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city 4of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.”
[2]
Acts 1:4-5 (NKJV)
4 eAnd being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have fheard from Me; 5 gfor John truly baptized with water, hbut you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” [3]

Acts 2:33 (NKJV)
33 Therefore cbeing exalted 1to dthe right hand of God, and ehaving received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He fpoured out this which you now see and hear.

Actually, JEB, I do believe in the baptism of the Spirit and that it was part of what happened at Pentecost. I just no longer believe it like I was indoctrinated in it by traditional Pentecostal doctrine. Remember, I was deeply indoctrinated in Pentecostal theology for more than 30 years and taught it as a Pentecostal pastor for all those years. My brother is still an AOG minister and we hash these things out when he is home on furlough from Africa. He does agree that I have a valid case although he does not agree with it (he is after all, a Pentecostal).

On the Day of Pentecost, several things happened, among them …

• The arrival of the Holy Spirit in power to indwell believers. This is the gift of the Holy Spirit, the promise of the Father.
• The arrival of the Holy Spirit to empower the disciples for service (i.e., to fill them with the Spirit). This is the gift of the Holy Spirit, the promise of the Father.
• The arrival of the Holy Spirit to distribute His gifting (including tongues, which are mentioned in Acts 2.4) to believers for the edification of the Body. This is the gift of the Holy Spirit, the promise of the Father.
• The arrival of the Holy Spirit to inaugurate the Church of Jesus Christ, the Body of Christ, on earth. This is the gift of the Holy Spirit, the promise of the Father.
• The arrival of the Holy Spirit to baptize believers into that Body (1 Cor. 12.13). This is the baptism of/in/by/with the Spirit. This is the gift of the Holy Spirit, the promise of the Father.

This, of course, does not fit the traditional Pentecostal model I was once taught, but every occurrence of the phrase “baptism of/in/by/with the Spirit” will fit the model I (and others) offer. Here is every occurrence of the term in the NT:

Matthew 3.11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Mark 1.8 I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.

Luke 3.16 John answered, saying to all, “I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.”

John 1.33 I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’

Acts 1.5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

Acts 11.16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

1 Corinthians 12.13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.
​

In every one of these instances the baptism by the Spirit of believers into the Body of Christ is both prophesied and recounted. And all but one of these instances relate to one single, but obviously very important, statement made by John the Baptist which Jesus told his disciples in Acts 1.5 would happen “not many days from now”. Sure enough, on the Day of Pentecost, when the church of Jesus Christ was instated/established on earth, believers were baptized by the Spirit – i.e., placed in – that Body.


Hope that explains my view better.

 

[Christina M]

Is your only tool a hammer, Christina?

Of course, your beliefs are not in this mix because your beliefs are, of course, the only ones that are totally un-convoluted, right? You have got this all down perfect. The rest of us – that is the ones of us who do not share your infallible views - just don’t believe the Word for what it says, like you do. Right? Poor ignorant, silly, spiritually blind us. I am so glad you are here to keep us in line, Christina.

How do you get a 'hammer' as my tool, Jim?

I speak clearly. I speak bluntly. That is my nature. Since I was a child, I cut to the core of matters. I call a spade a spade. It has been a hard thing at times, because of the persecution that follows. But, I have learned to respect the nature I have as a gift. I say things that many want to say, but don't have the courage to.

The most common persecution comes in the form of being accused of being arrogant or thinking I am perfect (just as you have done to me here, and others in almost every thread in which I post).

When I am confident in my beliefs - as I am without doubt in this thread - accusations that I think I am perfect just roll off me like water on a duck's back. The sad part is they detract from the thread and the Word.

P.S. In most courtrooms the judge uses a hammer to make a point. If it was my courtroom, I'd have my S&W .38 and my Glock .45 as my tools (and I ain't even from Texas)

 

[JimB]

How do you get a 'hammer' as my tool, Jim?

I speak clearly. I speak bluntly. That is my nature. Since I was a child, I cut to the core of matters. I call a spade a spade. It has been a hard thing at times, because of the persecution that follows. But, I have learned to respect the nature I have as a gift. I say things that many want to say, but don't have the courage to.

The most common persecution comes in the form of being accused of being arrogant or thinking I am perfect (just as you have done to me here, and others in almost every thread in which I post).

When I am confident in my beliefs - as I am without doubt in this thread - accusations that I think I am perfect just roll off me like water on a duck's back. The sad part is they detract from the thread and the Word.

P.S. In most courtrooms the judge uses a hammer to make a point. If it was my courtroom, I'd have my S&W .38 and my Glock .45 as my tools (and I ain't even from Texas)

I understand, Christina. We may be more alike than you would like to admit . I am blunt, too, by nature, but if I am going to try to convince you or anyone of my point of view I cannot do it with an insulting tone. I do not doubt your sincerity or your love for God, not for a minute, but it is your sometimes-confrontational approach that sometimes leaves me cold and, unfortunately, closes my mind to your arguments especially when I am forced into a position where I have to defend my character or integrity.

The Apostle’s advice to us is: A servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient (2 Timothy 2.24) and Let your gentleness be known to all men (Philippians 4.5).

When we forget that (which I admit I sometimes do ) my arguments become clouded by my zeal.

It is alright to be blunt … but gentle. For those of us whose nature is not to be gentle, that is a difficult thing to do but we must work at it even if we have to work a heck of a lot harder.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I found her comments neither blunt nor offensive, perhaps that's in the eyes, or judgement, of the beholder, too.

 

[Christina M]

I found her comments neither blunt nor offensive, perhaps that's in the eyes, or judgement, of the beholder, too.

Thanks!

It really is in the 'reader's perception', that is for sure. If we all knew each other in person, we could really see the heart.

 

[JimB]

I found her comments neither blunt nor offensive, perhaps that's in the eyes, or judgement, of the beholder, too.

Okay.

 

[JimB]

Thanks!

It really is in the 'reader's perception', that is for sure. If we all knew each other in person, we could really see the heart.

And I’ll bet we would get along, too. Sometimes I think when we debate on an impersonal forum we depersonalize our opponents and its easy to get angry at ideas forgetting that those ideas are really people. If we were sitting at a table having coffee and looking into each others face and hearing their voice, we would probably not get so heated over these views and come to agreement sooner (even agreements to disagree).

 

[JEBrady]

Hope that explains my view better.

Yes, it does.

In your list of scriptural instances, I only disagree with your take on 1 Co 12:13. I read that simply as the Holy Spirit places you in the body of Christ. Baptism is a strong word, but I don’t read it to mean the baptism in the Spirit, because it’s the baptism into the body by the Spirit. Confusing baptism by the Spirit into the body with baptism by Jesus in the Spirit is a failure to distinguish the roles of the members of the godhead and to understand the differences between the actions. To me, it would be like confusing water baptism with baptism in the Spirit, based on the fact that the word “baptism” occurs in both places.

Of course, combining this scripture with the baptism in the Holy Spirit changes your entire view of the spiritual mechanics of salvation. Since I view the baptism in the Spirit as one of 3 spiritual acts related to salvation, I believe you are placed in the body by the Spirit at the time you are born again, and the baptism in the Spirit is separate act of grace. It doesn’t bother me that someone gets the whole thing in one sitting, as it were. Some do.

So I can’t really agree with you- after all, I am a Pentecostal. Also, there’s not much of a reason for me to hash it with you here, since I’m unlikely to point out anything you haven’t considered. You should be more familiar with this than I am.

One thing I do wonder- after 30 years, not to get too personal, what caused you to change?

 

[JimB]

*****

One thing I do wonder- after 30 years, not to get too personal, what caused you to change?

What caused me to change? Thanks for asking.

I think it was the realization that as I grow older the more I have wanted to know the truth apart from what others (my denomination, favorite writers, preachers, family, friends, etc.) have told me is the truth. (Wishful thinking, I know.) But I did step back and try to rethink all I believed, and to listen to the Spirit, to other sides of the issues (within orthodox/evangelical Christianity, of course) - those to whom I had closed my ears in the past. I discovered that maybe I had not been taught things correctly on some finer points of scripture, had not considered objections to what I held to be truthful by the group in which I had been saved and nurtured.

Several points brought me into conflict with traditional AOG beliefs and I wrestled, as a minister, with my integrity. Should I confess my reservations or sweep them under the rug? Not until an unwanted divorce and, a decade later, in 1995, my decision to remarry, which brought me into open conflict with stringent AOG rules prohibiting divorced ministers the right to remarry, did it all come to a head. It was either Stephanie (my gift from God) or my ordination in the AOG.

The choice was easy.

I chose Stephanie.

Once I was freed from the legal requirements of the denomination, the rest was effortless enough. I was also freed to re-examine my faith and beliefs. Ergo, the positions that have since evolved.

Right or wrong, they are my beliefs, which I trust have been instilled in me by the Spirit of truth who guides into all truth and not by my membership in a denomination.

That’s it in a nutshell.