Do you believe in predestination ?

[Brightfame52]

That is what I get from reading Ephesians 1:1-5 which indicates that the Faithful in Christ Jesus are predestined for adoption as sons.

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
​

In Mark 16:15-16, Jesus commands men (i.e. Jesus's disciples) to spread the Gospel message, and indicates that men choose their own eternal destiny based upon whether they choose to believe that Gospel message.

Mark 16:15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.​

Jesus never instructed his disciples to teach your version of predestination to sinners. Selah.

1 Timothy 2 indicates that God has made provision for the salvation of all men: God desires all men to be saved, and Jesus provided himself as a ransom for all men. Some men reject the provision.

1 Timothy2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,​

So you believe predestination of God is contingent on the will of man, correct ?

 

[TedT]

As long as you keep mentioning mans freewill, I dont see you believing in predestination from the scripture.

It is obvious that my definitions of predestination do not fit your conclusions about the meaning of predestination and sovereignty in light of the absolute necessity of our free will.

Please provide the verse that proves that predestination directs or forces our will rather than fulfills our free will, ie, our uncoerced unconstrained choice...I suggest that it is your theology that commits you to this stance, not any directive of scripture.

I think you missed this paragraph...

What is there about HIS sovereign will that denies HIM the power TO CHOOSE to let us choose by our free will which relationship we want to have with HIM, family or enemy?

 

[TedT]

So you believe predestination of God is contingent on the will of man, correct ?

Why not if that is HIS pleasure? DO you have any biblical reason to believe it is NOT HIS pleasure to ensure the fulfillment of our free will choices by causally predestining them to be fulfilled? Or that HE would not give us the assurance of our free will choices will be fulfilled by predicting they will be fulfilled?

 

[John Mullally]

So you believe predestination of God is contingent on the will of man, correct ?

I believe the Bible teaches, that God in His Sovereignty has left many decisions up to men.

How about this, why don't you tell me what I posted that you do not agree with.

 

[Ligurian]

(2) Do you believe all of these verses?
Acts 15:19-21 Galatians 2:7 Romans 15:8
Matthew 5:19 Matthew 7:24-25 Matthew 24:14
Matthew 24:35 Matthew 28:20 Revelation 3:1-5

predestinated
proorizo = from pro and horizo; to limit in advance, i.e. (figuratively) predetermine:--determine before, ordain, predestinate.
horizo = from horion; to mark out or bound ("horizon"), i.e. (figuratively) to appoint, decree, specify:--declare, determine, limit, ordain.

Those words only show up in Paul and Luke.
A word meaning coast, then horizon... evolved into destiny or fate.

So what are you saying with all this ? Do you believe in predestination ?

That word (προορισας) "predestination" doesn't show up in the Gospel of the Kingdom which was given to the Galilean Apostles. And the definition of that word is sketchy at best. The only place "destiny" shows up is in the Wisdom of Solomon, 19:4.

προορισας seems to only exist in Paul and Luke.
It doesn't show-up in any Ancient Greek document... that I've ever found.
Frankly, I don't know what to do with that word, so I don't do anything.
I follow the Gospel of the Kingdom given to the circumcision.

Much more is required of the circumcision than that from the gentiles:

Acts 15:19-20 Wherefore my sentence is: that we trouble not them which from among the Gentiles are turned to God, but that we write unto them that they abstain from: pollutions of idols and fornication and things strangled and blood.

Therefore, it's not hard to believe that Law still applies to the circumcision...
especially when we can prove it:

Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment.
And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council. But whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Judgment, council, hell fire = Law.

 

[Ligurian]

I believe the Bible teaches, that God in His Sovereignty has left many decisions up to men.

How about this, why don't you tell me what I posted that you do not agree with.

The only people who ever get to question your beliefs are the ones who don't let you question theirs.

But the only canon-answer is Galatians 2:7 and Acts 15:19-20.

 

[Brightfame52]

It is obvious that my definitions of predestination do not fit your conclusions about the meaning of predestination and sovereignty in light of the absolute necessity of our free will.

Please provide the verse that proves that predestination directs or forces our will rather than fulfills our free will, ie, our uncoerced unconstrained choice...I suggest that it is your theology that commits you to this stance, not any directive of scripture.

I think you missed this paragraph...

You still mention mans freewill in the matter of Gods predestination.

 

[Brightfame52]

I believe the Bible teaches, that God in His Sovereignty has left many decisions up to men.

How about this, why don't you tell me what I posted that you do not agree with.

I believe you are wrong about the bible and what it teaches about predestination.

 

[Brightfame52]

Why not if that is HIS pleasure? DO you have any biblical reason to believe it is NOT HIS pleasure to ensure the fulfillment of our free will choices by causally predestining them to be fulfilled? Or that HE would not give us the assurance of our free will choices will be fulfilled by predicting they will be fulfilled?

My understanding is that predestination is according to His will, Gods own will Eph 1:5,11

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

 

[Brightfame52]

That word (προορισας) "predestination" doesn't show up in the Gospel of the Kingdom which was given to the Galilean Apostles. And the definition of that word is sketchy at best. The only place "destiny" shows up is in the Wisdom of Solomon, 19:4.

προορισας seems to only exist in Paul and Luke.
It doesn't show-up in any Ancient Greek document... that I've ever found.
Frankly, I don't know what to do with that word, so I don't do anything.
I follow the Gospel of the Kingdom given to the circumcision.

Much more is required of the circumcision than that from the gentiles:

Acts 15:19-20 Wherefore my sentence is: that we trouble not them which from among the Gentiles are turned to God, but that we write unto them that they abstain from: pollutions of idols and fornication and things strangled and blood.

Therefore, it's not hard to believe that Law still applies to the circumcision...
especially when we can prove it:

Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment.
And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council. But whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Judgment, council, hell fire = Law.

So do you believe predestination is taught in the word of God ?

 

[John Mullally]

I believe you are wrong about the bible and what it teaches about predestination.

Emphasizing predestination as you do turns the Gospel into a confidence game.

Lack of immediate emotional experience or cessation of all sinful desire destroys the faith of some baby Christians who accept your type of predestination teaching. Instead of progressing by acting in faith to NT directives and promises, they are left with unhealthy introspection (after all they were told men are naturally totally depraved and everything is up to God). That leads many to view themselves as either hopelessly non-elect or to passively wait for God to zap them with an emotional experience or spontaneous deliverance from bad habits.

You can find examples of this problem expressed on this forum - people who adhere to Calvinism, say they want to be saved, but are at their wits end because they feel the were not predestined to be elect.

 

[TedT]

You still mention mans freewill in the matter of Gods predestination.

Why not? We chose our eternal FATE by our free will and GOD then predestined them, ie, HE made a compelling prediction to HIS elect that they would achieve that state as holy and able to be HIS Bride.

 

[TedT]

My understanding is that predestination is according to His will, Gods own will

EXACTLY! ...and my understanding is HIS sovereign will was for us to choose our eternal relationship with HIM as family or as enemies by our free will, that is, we chose our Fates, which HE then predestined us to achieve no matter how far we fell into sin and rebellion.

Even Judas, IF he was an elect sheep gone astray, was predestined by the promise of salvation in his election to be saved.

Predestination accepted to be the cause of some people ending in hell is contrary to and the opposite of those verses in which HE tells us HE takes no pleasure in the death of anyone, ie in hell, (and HE does all for HIS own pleasure), and that HE desires no one to die, in hell, but for all to repent.

 

[Brightfame52]

The reason we believe is because God predestinated us to be conformed to the image of his Son. Rom 8:28-30 To ensure that his people would be conformed to the image of Christ, God predestinated each one to that conformity to his Son.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.13

 

[Brightfame52]

Emphasizing predestination as you do turns the Gospel into a confidence game.

Lack of immediate emotional experience or cessation of all sinful desire destroys the faith of some baby Christians who accept your type of predestination teaching. Instead of progressing by acting in faith to NT directives and promises, they are left with unhealthy introspection (after all they were told men are naturally totally depraved and everything is up to God). That leads many to view themselves as either hopelessly non-elect or to passively wait for God to zap them with an emotional experience or spontaneous deliverance from bad habits.

You can find examples of this problem expressed on this forum - people who adhere to Calvinism, say they want to be saved, but are at their wits end because they feel the were not predestined to be elect.

You can say what you will, it appears you dont receive the biblical truth of predestination.

 

[Brightfame52]

Why not? We chose our eternal FATE by our free will and GOD then predestined them, ie, HE made a compelling prediction to HIS elect that they would achieve that state as holy and able to be HIS Bride.

Predestination is according to Gods will, not mans.

 

[Brightfame52]

EXACTLY! ...and my understanding is HIS sovereign will was for us to choose our eternal relationship with HIM as family or as enemies by our free will, that is, we chose our Fates, which HE then predestined us to achieve no matter how far we fell into sin and rebellion.

Even Judas, IF he was an elect sheep gone astray, was predestined by the promise of salvation in his election to be saved.

Predestination accepted to be the cause of some people ending in hell is contrary to and the opposite of those verses in which HE tells us HE takes no pleasure in the death of anyone, ie in hell, (and HE does all for HIS own pleasure), and that HE desires no one to die, in hell, but for all to repent.

It appears you teach that Gods sovereign will is subservient to mans will. I think thats unbiblical

 

[TedT]

Predestination is according to Gods will, not mans.

Yeah, so I have been saying...

Since you obviously cannot answer my question:
"What is there about HIS sovereign will that denies HIM the power TO CHOOSE to let us choose by our free will which relationship we want to have with HIM, family or enemy?",

I will provide my own answer:
"Nothing... There is absolutely nothing about HIS sovereign will that denies HIM the power TO CHOOSE to let us choose by our free will which relationship we want to have with HIM, family or enemy!"

Your vain repetitions of dogmatic statements do not provide any certainty to their truthfulness.

 

[TedT]

It appears you teach that Gods sovereign will is subservient to mans will. I think thats unbiblical

BY HIS SOVEREIGN WILL HE gave us a free will and the task to use that free will to decide for ourselves our eternal fate...so how does this make HIS will subservient to ours when HE chose by HIS SOVEREIGN WILL what we should do with our free will???

 

[John Mullally]

You can say what you will, it appears you dont receive the biblical truth of predestination.

I addressed predestination from Bible (per Ephesians 1:1-5) among other things in post 238 and you did not specifically address it. Perhaps you were not predestined to address my points in post 238.

Receive is the key term. God does not push salvation onto anyone.

Anyone can receive God's gift of salvation by following the instructions from Peter to the crowd in the latter portions of Acts 2.