Do you believe in predestination ?

[TedT]

Not at all God can extend His grace to everyone, He wants everyone to be saved.

I believe that grace was offered to all people created in HIS image with a free will. I also see that some people rejected HIS grace because they had to accept HIS claims to be our creator GOD and saviour on faith without proof and they refused and instead put their faith in his being no better or higher than anyone else so they rebuked HiM for being a liar and a false god driven by a psychotic megalomania, the unforgivable sin. I have even read Satanic apologists claiming that as the first sinner in creation YHWH must be the longest in sin so therefore is the most evil of all sinners in creation, sigh.

Grace ends for those who sin the unforgivable sin or they too would be saved and hell empty.

BUT all this depends upon our free will surviving our enslavement to sin which enslavement then is meaningless so I stumble over
1st - the lack of reconciliation (except for double think rationalizations) between our enslavement to sin (no free will) and the efficacy or non-efficacy of grace to free us from sin without our free will acceptance of HIS grace and
2nd - I cannot accept that some suffer eternal hell who could indeed be saved, ie, there is no such thing as enslavement to an unforgivable sin, and though HE loves them with a perfect loving PATIENCE, 1 Cor 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind, HE quits waiting for them to repent and slams them into the outer darkness of no return!

If HE loved them enough to offer them grace in their sin, then HE would love them enough to peek back in on them in hell after a month or two and ask if they had yet considered...unless their choosing to sin the unforgivable sin somehow short circuited HIS grace and they were then outside of grace and therefore stuck in their sin unable to be redeemed or to save themselves!

I waver over the bald assertion that they are in hell only because they rejected HIS grace because of the blasphemous implications this has about the failure of the perfect nature of HIS loving patience which I believe in whole heartedly.

 

[Brightfame52]

Not only were they predestinated to Faith, but predestinated to be saved They were saved already in the purpose of God before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,


Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[TedT]

Not only were they predestinated to Faith, but predestinated to be saved They were saved already in the purpose of God before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

Ys, indeed!!!

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

...as long as we understand this is about salvation from our enslavement to sin, etc, and not our election before the foundation of the world, eh?

 

[disciple Clint]

I believe that grace was offered to all people created in HIS image with a free will. I also see that some people rejected HIS grace because they had to accept HIS claims to be our creator GOD and saviour on faith without proof and they refused and instead put their faith in his being no better or higher than anyone else so they rebuked HiM for being a liar and a false god driven by a psychotic megalomania, the unforgivable sin. I have even read Satanic apologists claiming that as the first sinner in creation YHWH must be the longest in sin so therefore is the most evil of all sinners in creation, sigh.

Grace ends for those who sin the unforgivable sin or they too would be saved and hell empty.

BUT all this depends upon our free will surviving our enslavement to sin which enslavement then is meaningless so I stumble over
1st - the lack of reconciliation (except for double think rationalizations) between our enslavement to sin (no free will) and the efficacy or non-efficacy of grace to free us from sin without our free will acceptance of HIS grace and
2nd - I cannot accept that some suffer eternal hell who could indeed be saved, ie, there is no such thing as enslavement to an unforgivable sin, and though HE loves them with a perfect loving PATIENCE, 1 Cor 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind, HE quits waiting for them to repent and slams them into the outer darkness of no return!

If HE loved them enough to offer them grace in their sin, then HE would love them enough to peek back in on them in hell after a month or two and ask if they had yet considered...unless their choosing to sin the unforgivable sin somehow short circuited HIS grace and they were then outside of grace and therefore stuck in their sin unable to be redeemed or to save themselves!

I waver over the bald assertion that they are in hell only because they rejected HIS grace because of the blasphemous implications this has about the failure of the perfect nature of HIS loving patience which I believe in whole heartedly.

It is clear to me that your understanding of the character of God and the free will of man and my understanding are not comparable.

 

[Brightfame52]

Ys, indeed!!!



...as long as we understand this is about salvation from our enslavement to sin, etc, and not our election before the foundation of the world, eh?

That sounds off. This is about the eternal aspect of Salvation, occurring before the world began, before the saved began.

 

[Clare73]

They die in the judgment of their sin, not in prevention. Death is the consequence of sin

Still non-responsive to my Biblical demonstration (post #195). . .

 

[rturner76]

"for this cause (not recognizing the body of the Lord in the bread) many die in judgment so they won't be condemned with the world"?

That is a cut and paste. The text does not say that it says32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world. It does NOT say we are killed to avoid judgment it says we are disciplined to avoid judgment. You took part of one verse and added it to a later verse but it lacks continuity.

"Chastened" here means "the infliction of evils and calamities,"

Wrong again, it means to discipline. I'm sure you can look it p in the online dictionary.

You keep denying the undeniable grammatical linkage in the following text of dying (due to not recognizing the body of the Lord in the bread) to judgment.

Cut and paste again, you have to read the whole passage in context, not pick one part and add it to another part.

Still non-responsive to my Biblical demonstration (post #196).

Your "Biblical demonstration" is out of context and flatly wrong

 

[Clare73]

Look at it again and tell me where God kills people to prevent them from sinning.
28 But let a man prove himself, and so let him eat of the bread, and drink of the cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh, eateth and drinketh judgment unto himself, if he discern not the body.

30 For this cause many among you are weak and sickly, and not a few sleep.
not a few sleep, not God puts people to sleep.
31 But if we discerned ourselves, we should not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.
Chastened means corrected, not killed before sinning.

"for this cause (not recognizing the body of the Lord in the bread) many die in judgment
so they won't be condemned with the world"?

That is a cut and paste.

In the following provided by you above, you keep denying the undeniable grammatical linkage
of dying (due to not recognizing the body of the Lord in the bread) to judgment.

29 For he that eateth and drinketh, eateth and drinketh judgment unto himself, if he discern not the body.

30 For this cause many among you are weak and sickly, and not a few sleep (die),

Educating in grammar is above my paygrade.

I will not be relitigating this argument.

Still non-responsive to my Biblical demonstration (post #195). . .

 

[rturner76]

You keep denying the undeniable grammatical linkage in the following text of dying (due to not recognizing the body of the Lord in the bread) to judgment.

29 For he that eateth and drinketh, eateth and drinketh judgment unto himself, if he discerns not the body.

30 For this cause many among you are weak and sickly, and not a few sleep (die),

Educating in grammar is above my paygrade.

I think you are the one who is not understanding the text
It talks about the consequence of sin, not killing people to avoid judgment.

read it again. I think YOU need the lesson on grammar.

eateth and drinketh judgment unto himself if he discerns not the body. For this cause (eating and drinking judgment) many among you are weak and sickly and not a few sleep.

It's for the cause of eating and drinking judgment that some die. It does NOT say it's in order for them to avoid sin. They avoid sin when they are chastened (disciplined)

Nowhere does it say God kills people so they will avoid judgment.

Case closed.

 

[Brightfame52]

Another scripture that puts forth the truth of faith or believing being the result of predestination is Acts 13:48

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

This word ordained is tassō

to draw up in order, arrange
Usage: (a) I assign, arrange, (b) I determine; mid: I appoint.
as many as were appointed (A. V.ordained) (by God) to obtain eternal life, or to whom God bad decreed eternal life,

The word ordained here is also synonym to destine !

Now when was eternal life arranged and promised ? Before the world began Titus 1:1-2

Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Promised is closely akin to agreement, arrangement, covenant

The ISV reads:

48 When the gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord. Meanwhile, all who had been destined to eternal life believed

 

[Clare73]

I think you are the one who is not understanding the text
It talks about the consequence of sin, not killing people to avoid judgment.
read it again. I think YOU need the lesson on grammar.
eateth and drinketh judgment unto himself if he discerns not the body. For this cause (eating and drinking judgment) many among you are weak and sickly and not a few sleep.
It's for the cause of eating and drinking judgment that some die. It does NOT say it's in order for them to avoid sin. They avoid sin when they are chastened (disciplined)

Nowhere does it say God kills people so they will avoid judgment.

CONTRARE!

"We are being disciplined (judged with death) so that we will not be condemned. . .with the world" (for continuing in our sin had we been allowed to live).

Case closed.

In non-response to my Biblical demonstration (post #195).

Q.E.D.

 

[TedT]

That sounds off. This is about the eternal aspect of Salvation, occurring before the world began, before the saved began.

Salvation is the fulfillment of the promise imbued in the election of people to salvation and heaven. The rule of salvation from sin, ie, by grace only, not by any work of man, does not apply to the reason for the election of some and the passing over of others at the foundation of the world...why should it?

 

[rturner76]

The rule of salvation from sin, ie, by grace only, not by any work of man,

Universalism? Where does faith come into the equation? I mean living faith.

 

[TedT]

Universalism?

Universalism is denied by Christ's doctrine of the unforgivable sin...

 

[rturner76]

Universalism is denied by Christ's doctrine of the unforgivable sin...

Grace without faith is Universalism. It's really a grace-plus-faith situation and faith without works is dead.

 

[Brightfame52]

Salvation is the fulfillment of the promise imbued in the election of people to salvation and heaven. The rule of salvation from sin, ie, by grace only, not by any work of man, does not apply to the reason for the election of some and the passing over of others at the foundation of the world...why should it?

It seems you dont understand the eternal realm of Salvation.

 

[Brightfame52]

One writer wrote and I quote:

Predestination is the Decree of God, whereby{according to the counsel of His own will} He foreordained some of mankind to eternal life, and refused or passed by others for the praise of His glorious Mercy and Justice. Some are vessels of mercy, others are vessels of wrath. “Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to show His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction; and that he might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory.” Rom.9:21-23.

http://www.supralapsarian.com/pdf/ness-arminianism.pdf

 

[Ligurian]

Do you believe in predestination ?

No, Galatians 2:7.
I follow the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[Brightfame52]

Mans religion teaches contrary to scripture, that Gods predestination is premised on Gods foresight of mans doing something, his works or believing etc, but its not true. Gods predestination is conditioned upon His own Eternal Purpose, the good pleasure of His Will Eph 1:5

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,2

 

[Brightfame52]

No, Galatians 2:7.
I follow the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven.

If you dont believe in predestination, you dont believe in something the scripture teaches.