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Do you believe in Creationism or Evolutionism?

Are you a Creationist as per the OP definition.. a literal 7 day week of creation. Gen 1?

  • yes

    Votes: 22 34.4%
  • yes but I think that the entire galaxy as well as Earth, Sun and moon were created in those 7 days

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Yes but I think the entire universe was created in in those 7 literal days

    Votes: 11 17.2%
  • yes - but the Bible is wrong

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • yes - but I mix evolution with it in some way

    Votes: 1 1.6%
  • No - but since I believe the Bible I think of this as a kind of creationism

    Votes: 7 10.9%
  • No - creationism is wrong, the Bible is wrong, I believe evolution is the real truth

    Votes: 3 4.7%
  • other

    Votes: 20 31.3%

  • Total voters
    64

DamianWarS

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Who is calling Moses a darwinist? I certainly didn't nor do I reject a literal view, I say the litteralness of the account is the least important part. please don't misrepresent me

Genesis is written in different styles and it cannot be all conflated into historical narrative. The creation account has a very clear chaistic structure in it of A 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, A, foreshadowing and it is not in a logical order (the light is created before the sun). There are also a lot of very concrete concepts that have been translated into English abstract that may take away from the account. All of these, plus that it's written 2500 years after it happened reasonably point to a different genre.

The word create in Hebrew has closer meaning with forming and filling and even more concretely "fattening" but since English wouldn't allow "God fatten the sky and land" we translate it with abstracts which can influence it's meaning. The word create is not in the first 3 days and what God seems to be doing is separating and the last 3 days God is filling.

We pretend that God is bringing forth out of nothing but the text is not that straight forward and we learn later that man is actually formed out of earth and this is more consistent with how an ancient mindset would view creation which is forming or filling up something that is already there not bringing forth out of nothing which is too abstract of a concept. The text tells us the earth was formless and void as the canvas for day 1, so God speaks light into it, separates the waters from the air, the seas and the land then he fills these vessels. So where did the formless void come from? That's not a question an ancient Hebrew would ask nor is it a focus of the text.

So "litteral" has a lot of preconceived ideas built in there that should not be about how a modern abstract western's world view but about how an ancient mindset thinks. You need to think like an ancient Hebrew to understand this text and what it is saying and also what it is not saying. When you think like a westerner you're going to get a western answer.


Moses is an eyewitness to his own life. The further you are from an eye witness the more oral accounts become fluid. There are goals to the accounts which the details are there to support but they may not be how it actually went. This is standard for oral accounts from ancients and should be assumed (especially from Eastern worldviews). The more uniqueness it has with Hebrew life/culture the more attention to details it's going to have. This is why prior to Abraham you have little stories with large gaps but when Abraham comes into the picture there is a turning point and rich detailed accounts start without large voids. the account of Abraham and his line is more important and intimate to the Hebrews and there would be no outside competition or influence that an account of the flood or creation doesn't have as there would be wide influence and completion with surrounding cultures. Everyone's got a flood story and everyone's got a creation story, but only the Hebrews have an Abraham story.

But even in these Abrahamic accounts we see details that are fluid like Rebecca drawing water for the camels. There were no domesticated camels during that time in that region so this part of the story we already see is taking on contextual details that would fit a post-exodus Hebrew understanding. So we see the stories taking on a modernization to better speak to its audience and communicate it's purpose better.


I didn't say that either. But using the biblical time line from creation to Moses it's about 2500 years. I've made very detailed genealogy records and have counted the years, personally but it also agrees with any record you can google (or you can do the math yourself). So according to the biblical time line and reading the days/years "as is" there is creation and 2500 years later there is Moses who is credited with writing the creation account. Suffice to say Moses doesn't really know what happened and he has to be told what to write down we must then look at the purpose of writing this text down to understand it's meaning. (Hint: look at the foreshadowing, the mindset of the Hebrews of that time and their wide influence and corruption)

As for gaps inbetween the days I have never even suggested that so I'm not sure why you're bringing that up. Every word in the bible is perfect the way it is and we do not need to fix the text by adding stuff inbetween the lines to support our theories but we do need to understand their roles to interpret them correctly.
 
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d taylor

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Nice to actually meet some creationists for a change

Where on this posted thread do you see a Biblical creationist, i believe you are seeing science believing christians trying to make the Bible fit their science model.

And that aint gonna happen.
 
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coffee4u

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The issue is what they believe is it supported by the Bible. I say no, if you believe so, show the Biblical support.

And then they can show Bible verses supporting their doctrine of how mankind came to have a spirit and the origins of sin.

*Takes a seat to wait*
 
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1an

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Where on this posted thread do you see a Biblical creationist, i believe you are seeing science believing christians trying to make the Bible fit their science model.

And that aint gonna happen.
God is the master scientist.
.
 
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1an

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God is The Creator and a creator cannot be a scientist, really there is no need for God to be a scientist. just a creator.
Just a creator!

Well you create me something from nothing without knowing how it works.
.
 
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I am not really the one who can convince you of the truth of what God's Word says. Only God can do that, my friend. I am not really interesed in debating this issue because it would be like arguing over kindergarden basics of the Bible. You are free to believe as you wish, but I see the danger of believing in Macro-Evolution or Darwinism is that it is one step closer to shacking up with the world and it's ways.
 
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nolidad

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Well there was no naturalisitc thought ack then. Atheism would have been rare indeed. Even the every logical greeks worshipped a pantheon of Gods!

SCience was very very unfomred back then and no one had a concpet that evolution was anything nor the big bang. Paul fought agianst false gods by ashowing themfalse and showing the true God. Just as these saints of God do.

Well you can consider these scientists to somehow be unfaithful to the gospel in some manner, but I think they are doing a vital good for the body by practicing science rightly so called! For they also preach th egospel.

But if teh enemy is attacking on the left, you don't go right to fight him. You fight the fight where the lie is being espoused. and if you study them, you will see they preach the gospel well.

But you seem to have your mind made up against these folks and the jobs they do a as vocation, calling and career. So be it.
 
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Atheism would have been rare indeed.

Actually this line of thinking is not correct. The famous Romans 3:10 verse is taken from Psalms 14 that says:

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.” (Psalms 14:1-3).​

So this suggests that a denial of God (or atheism) was more prevalent back in that day than you think.
 
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nolidad

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Now if you read the larger context of Romans you would see they weree busy worshipping man made gods or worshipping the creature more than the creator as it says in romans 1. REligious history shows that all nations surrounding Israel from befoe teh psalms until after all had their own Ba'als.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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Two quick points:

1. I am a theologically conservative evangelical Christian who loves and believes the Word of God, and therefore I study it in the languages in which God chose to give it to us. Greek is an exceptionally difficult language to master largely because none of the Greek tenses have a close counter part in English, and one of its tenses, the aorist tense, is hugely different from anything that we have in English. Moreover, Greek prepositions, unlike our English prepositions, can have a wide range of meanings, and discerning the correct meaning in each use of the preposition requires very careful and close reading of the Greek text. And, of course, Greek verbs are conjugated to express voice, mood, tense, number, and person; and Greek nouns (only partially true of proper nouns), adjectives, pronouns, the definite article, and some numerals, are declined to express number, case, and gender. Therefore, for each book of the New Testament I have here in my study three or more very recent (21st century) commentaries on the Greek text. Even for Philemon (only 25 verses), I have the commentaries by Marcus Barth and Blanke Helmut, 578 pages, John Nordling, 431 pages, and Joseph Fitzmyer, 154 pages.

2: Whether or not a man believes in the theory of evolution has no bearing whatsoever upon the quality of his relationship with Christ. Furthermore, the theory of evolution does not and cannot contradict God’s acts of Creation because the natural sciences and religion do not intersect but run parallel to each other and independently of each other with a line clearly drawn between the two. Scientists are especially careful to avoid crossing that line. When Drs. Rhine and Pratt of Duke University came very close to crossing that line in the 1930’s, they were severely castigated by their peers. However, young earth creationists—including their so-called “scientists”—routinely cross that line—and the consequences to evangelical Christianity have been catastrophic while the teachings of science have triumphed!
 
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1an

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These "Young earthers" have done a great deal of harm to both the teaching of Jesus who is eternal, they have harmed Christianity and brought the Bible into disrepute, turning it into a book of fables. Satan must be loving it, laughing behind his hand. Goodness only knows what the end will be of these false teachers.
.
 
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Usually in my experience if one plays liberal with Genesis 1, then they will take other parts of the Bible in a more liberal kind of way, as well. They may see the global flood as a local flood. They could be in support of drinking alcohol, or smoking. They could be against our Lord's teaching on Non-Resistance and love to carry a gun for protection instead. They may be in support of celebrating Halloween, and or Christmas, etc.; They could be for watching worldly movies that promotes a wide variety of sins (like in popular big budget films like Marvel, Star Trek, and James Bond). In fact, they especially may not see a problem with the promotion of the sin of witchcraft in certain films like Harry Potter or the Chronicles of Narnia. They could be in support of abortion or at least the freedom for the people to choose abortion; And the list goes on, and on.
 
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Actually, in my experience, it appears to be the exact opposite. Everyone I have known who is into Old Earth Creationism is liberal in some way with something else in their life involving the faith. PrincetonGuy believes in Macro-Evolution or Darwinism. This is clearly a liberal belief in Christianity.

Liberal Christianity - Wikipedia
 
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But Paul is quoting from Psalms 14 (Which does not mention such a thing). Paul mentions Psalms 14 which is a time period in the OT whereby men said there was no God. Paul is talking about his current time period in Romans 1 when he talks about those who worship idols in Romans 1:23. He is not referring back to Psalms 14 as a time of idol worship. Granted, idol worship existed in the OT times. No doubt about it. But in Psalms 14, it referred to a time where many men denied there was a God.
 
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nolidad

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And what most people do not realize is that evolution and the big bang are the Genesis chapter one for the religion of secularism, where man is the ultimate in the universe. this is just a modern Ba'al and its doctrine.
 
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Take for example this Old Earth website. They are in support of Billy Graham here:

https://www.oldearth.org/Facebook_meme/bg2.jpg

Yet, Billy Graham was in favor of Ecumenism.
 
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And what most people do not realize is that evolution and the big bang are the Genesis chapter one for the religion of secularism, where man is the ultimate in the universe. this is just a modern Ba'al and its doctrine.

I am not in disagreement with that. But I believe real change is in preaching the gospel and not in having a Young Earth Creationism ministry. God did not say go out and preach the proper age of the Earth so that men will be saved. Yes, it is good to a degree to let others know the truth on this topic, but it should not be our main focus or the driving force of our ministry. Jesus is the reason for our ministry. He is the One we ultimately should focus primarily on. Not Young Earth Creationism.
 
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