Do you believe Baptism is essential for Salvation? (3)

[- DRA -]

I, too, have been baptised because the Lord has commanded it. A person who accepts Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior on Sunday, and is killed in a car wreck on Monday, did not have time to obey this command. The Christian who has the time, and refuses to be baptised, is walking in willful disobedience to the Lord, and is in a very dangerous place. We do need to be baptised.

Not to be offensive, but your reasoning "assumes" that one can accept Jesus without being baptized.

May I be so bold as to suggest a diligent study of Romans 6:3-11. It describes in detail what occurs DURING baptism -- not BEFORE. Therefore, we can only claim the blessings after we united with the Lord on His terms -- being baptized into His death, burial, and resurrection.

 

[JonahII]

Not to be offensive, but your reasoning "assumes" that one can accept Jesus without being baptized.

May I be so bold as to suggest a diligent study of Romans 6:3-11. It describes in detail what occurs DURING baptism -- not BEFORE. Therefore, we can only claim the blessings after we united with the Lord on His terms -- being baptized into His death, burial, and resurrection.

You are not offensive. You are a precious brother in the Lord. You have stated your position in a classy manner. Romans is my favorite book, and I did as you requested. Now I will suggest to you that you prayerfully consider Romans 10: 9-11.

We are to be baptised. It is a command. If there are circumstances, such as the thief on the cross, where not being baptised is not an act of willful disobedience, the Lord has this covered by His Precious Blood. Some will say that Jesus' work had not been complete when this happened. I submit that Jesus died before the thief. His work was complete when He said, "It is finished!"

 

[crowleyrj]

My reply to the questionasked, "Do you believe Baptism is essential for Salvation? (2)"yes!!!! I am a firm believer because acording to Luke16-16 he that believes and is baptized shall be saved;but he that believeth not shall be damned. Being the religion we try to live our lives as close to scripture as possible.

 

[Catechumen]

If there are circumstances, such as the thief on the cross, where not being baptised is not an act of willful disobedience, the Lord has this covered by His Precious Blood. Some will say that Jesus' work had not been complete when this happened. I submit that Jesus died before the thief. His work was complete when He said, "It is finished!"

Jesus died before the thief. Jesus died after the thief. How is that relevant to the discussion?

 

[jad123]

Jesus died before the thief. Jesus died after the thief. How is that relevant to the discussion?

It is relevant because one of the agruements against baptism being a requirement is the thief died without being baptised. Until Jesus was raised from the dead, we were still under the OLD covenant.

 

[Bay]

What about those good people in poor villages that have no way of knowing or being given the chance for baptism? No,I don't believe in all cases because you are not baptised you can't enter Heaven.

 

[- DRA -]

Originally Posted by: - DRA -

Not to be offensive, but your reasoning "assumes" that one can accept Jesus without being baptized.

May I be so bold as to suggest a diligent study of Romans 6:3-11. It describes in detail what occurs DURING baptism -- not BEFORE. Therefore, we can only claim the blessings after we united with the Lord on His terms -- being baptized into His death, burial, and resurrection.

You are not offensive. You are a precious brother in the Lord. You have stated your position in a classy manner. Romans is my favorite book, and I did as you requested. Now I will suggest to you that you prayerfully consider Romans 10: 9-11.

We are to be baptised. It is a command. If there are circumstances, such as the thief on the cross, where not being baptised is not an act of willful disobedience, the Lord has this covered by His Precious Blood. Some will say that Jesus' work had not been complete when this happened. I submit that Jesus died before the thief. His work was complete when He said, "It is finished!"

Thank you. I fear sometimes that my comments don't reflect the true concern that I feel for others when discussing the Scriptures.

Thank you for considering Romans 6:3-11. Hopefully, we are in agreement that DURING baptism one is united with the Lord's death, burial, and resurrection to die to sin, be freed from it, and become alive to God.

I appreciate you introducing Romans 10:9-11 into our discussion. Here's the way I view the passage: I believe and I accept it as the truth i.e. "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God ..." (2 Timothy 3:16a). However, I also believe and accept Romans 6:3-11 as the truth. Both are true. The problem comes with determining what it means to "believe." I understand the faith or belief that God accepts is the one that obeys Him i.e. James 2:21-24. In this light, I ask that you consider Acts 8:12. In essence, it says, "When they believed ... both men and women were baptized." And, while we are discussing Acts 8, also note verses 35-39. It shows how Romans 6:3-11 and 10:9-11 harmonize. To summarize, it's not a matter of choosing between Romans 6:3-11 or Romans 10:9-11. They both are true. Those that have the belief that God accept obey Him by being united with Jesus in baptism.

Who died first on the cross is irrelevant. The point is that Jesus' testament (will) went into effect after His death (Hebrews 9:15-17). And, using that thought, we can view Peter's sermon in Acts chapter 2 as the reading of Jesus' will. From that point on, baptism in the name of the Lord was commanded i.e. Acts 2:38, Acts 10:47-47, Acts 19:5, Acts 22:16.

The thief on the cross died while living under the law of Moses. Therefore, he is not an example for us to consider of one being saved under the gospel of Christ.

 

[jad123]

What about those good people in poor villages that have no way of knowing or being given the chance for baptism? No,I don't believe in all cases because you are not baptised you can't enter Heaven.

Scripture is very clear that the Lord has revealed Himslef to all and He is in all of our hearts.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
Rom 1:19 because the thing which may be known of God is clearly revealed within them, for God revealed it to them.
Rom 1:20 For the unseen things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being realized by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, for them to be without excuse.

Ecc 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in His time; also He has set eternity in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God makes from the beginning to the end.

 

[- DRA -]

What about those good people in poor villages that have no way of knowing or being given the chance for baptism? No,I don't believe in all cases because you are not baptised you can't enter Heaven.

Please explain more what you have in mind.

Do these people not have access to a Bible? Do they not know about God? Is there insufficient water for baptizing where these people live?

 

[- DRA -]

My reply to the questionasked, "Do you believe Baptism is essential for Salvation? (2)"yes!!!! I am a firm believer because acording to Luke16-16 he that believes and is baptized shall be saved;but he that believeth not shall be damned. Being the religion we try to live our lives as close to scripture as possible.

Yes, Mark 16:16 is clear that baptism is essential to being saved.

Focusing on the Scriptures is an excellent way to live i.e. 2 Timothy 3:16-17, 2 Peter 1:3.

 

[aggie03]

Romans 6:3-11 ESV

Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? (4) We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. (5) For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. (6) We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. (7) For one who has died has been set free from sin. (8) Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. (9) We know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. (10) For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. (11) So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Where specifically are you referring to? Also, please remember that you must include the overall meaning of the passage in your explanation of this text.

If Nadiine is still here, I would like to see her explanation of this passage. Anyone else may feel free to do so as well

I am also wondering if anyone had a response to this post : http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=23956153&postcount=290

 

[Bay]

there are humans in this world other than what you and I see that are in the congo tribal area with no human knowledge or instruction. there are also those that are medically unable to 'accept' Christ due to mental illness. Their paths are leading to heaven baptised or not. it has nothing to do with water....or a book.

Please explain more what you have in mind.

Do these people not have access to a Bible? Do they not know about God? Is there insufficient water for baptizing where these people live?

 

[aggie03]

there are humans in this world other than what you and I see that are in the congo tribal area with no human knowledge or instruction. there are also those that are medically unable to 'accept' Christ due to mental illness. Their paths are leading to heaven baptised or not. it has nothing to do with water....or a book.

I would suggest that you do a study over Romans 2 This may help with the situation that you are presenting.

 

[Catechumen]

there are humans in this world other than what you and I see that are in the congo tribal area with no human knowledge or instruction. there are also those that are medically unable to 'accept' Christ due to mental illness. Their paths are leading to heaven baptised or not. it has nothing to do with water....or a book.

I wholeheartedly agree!

 

[SoulFly51]

there are humans in this world other than what you and I see that are in the congo tribal area with no human knowledge or instruction. there are also those that are medically unable to 'accept' Christ due to mental illness. Their paths are leading to heaven baptised or not. it has nothing to do with water....or a book.

How can you say that for sure?

And if that's true, why do we have missionaries. Why did Jesus say:

Matthew 28:19
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
(NIV)

If all a person has to do to get to heaven is never hear the gospel, then why do we tell anyone? We're actually cutting their chance at eternal life in half just by sharing Christ with them according to your logic.

And when you say "it has nothing to do with a book" I hope you're not talking about the book God has written ...

 

[Catechumen]

If all a person has to do to get to heaven is never hear the gospel, then why do we tell anyone? We're actually cutting their chance at eternal life in half just by sharing Christ with them according to your logic.

And when you say "it has nothing to do with a book" I hope you're not talking about the book God has written ...

I know this post isn't addressed to me, but I feel the need to respond since I agree with what was said by Bay.

It's not enough for someone to simply not hear the Gospel in order for them to attain salvation. People need to obey their consciences and lead good and moral lives. Everyone knows God in some way or another and our salvation is determined by the way we answer God's call to us personally. These people don't know Jesus, so they know God in a different way. As long as people follow the path God leads them on in their lives, which is different for every single person, they will be awarded salvation. The Christian God is a personal God and to say that there is a specific requirement to attaining salvation that everyone must complete before they die is quite simply untrue. Read Romans 2 if you desire Scriptural support.

When he says it has nothing to do with a book he is talking about the Bible. I think he means that our salvation has nothing to do with a book that was written by men or by the laws and rules that religion tries to place on us, but is dependent upon the grace of God. This is truly what I believe.

 

[- DRA -]

Originally Posted by: - DRA -

Please explain more what you have in mind.

Do these people not have access to a Bible? Do they not know about God? Is there insufficient water for baptizing where these people live?

there are humans in this world other than what you and I see that are in the congo tribal area with no human knowledge or instruction. there are also those that are medically unable to 'accept' Christ due to mental illness. Their paths are leading to heaven baptised or not. it has nothing to do with water....or a book.

Your public profile reveals that you are struggling with your faith. That is also evidenced by your reference to "a book." Relative to our discussion, the Bible is not "a book," but "God's word." I suggest deciding what you believe about passages such as 2 Timothy 3:16-17 and 2 Peter 1:3. It's either God's word or it isn't. And, it either completely furnishes us with all we need for life and godliness or it doesn't.

Consider the command given to the apostles in Mark 16:15-16. In essence, Jesus commanded the apostles to take the gospel to every person. Why? Because they needed to hear that salvation was offered through Jesus. Why did they need to hear that message? Was it because they were saved and headed for heaven ... or because they were lost and not headed for heaven? The inference is that people were lost and needed to be saved. Think about it.

As far as the mentally incapable are concerned, our God is a fair and just God. All things are laid bare before Him (Hebrews 4:13). To be blunt, He alone knows who can discern the truth and who can't. Therefore, He'll judge fairly.

 

[- DRA -]

Originally Posted by: aggie03

Romans 6:3-11 ESV

Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? (4) We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. (5) For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. (6) We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. (7) For one who has died has been set free from sin. (8) Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. (9) We know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. (10) For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. (11) So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

If Nadiine is still here, I would like to see her explanation of this passage. Anyone else may feel free to do so as well

I am also wondering if anyone had a response to this post : http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=23956153&postcount=290

Greetings,

Generally speaking, I see the passage describing two things:
1.) What occurs during baptism
2.) How we are born again i.e. John 3:3-5

In more specific terms, the passage describes baptism as a means for us to be united with Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection where we die to sin, are freed from it, and become alive to God.

The clear picture is that these blessings were realized DURING baptism -- not BEFORE.

 

[SoulFly51]

It's not enough for someone to simply not hear the Gospel in order for them to attain salvation. People need to obey their consciences and lead good and moral lives. Everyone knows God in some way or another and our salvation is determined by the way we answer God's call to us personally. These people don't know Jesus, so they know God in a different way. As long as people follow the path God leads them on in their lives, which is different for every single person, they will be awarded salvation. The Christian God is a personal God and to say that there is a specific requirement to attaining salvation that everyone must complete before they die is quite simply untrue.

John 14:6
6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
(NIV)

When he says it has nothing to do with a book he is talking about the Bible. I think he means that our salvation has nothing to do with a book that was written by men

2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
(NIV)

 

[Schroeder]

Sorry, but the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia is just the work of men (mankind). The real issue when discussing baptism is what God says about it i.e. 1 Peter 4:11a, 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

of course you are assuming they did not study the Word of Truth before writting it. it is no different then you interpreting what the bible says. you are saying that JUST because it is in disagreement with what you believe it says. and the Fact that you do not understand that we are NOT FREED from sin BUT freed from the CURSE of Sin, which is death, makes me wonder if you do discern scripture correctly. the blood COVERS our sins. it was done once for all. the baptism of the SPirit JESUS' baptism which John the baptist said he would give us NOT his water baptism. and which 1 cor 12:13 says we DO get, is what gives us this new birth. the new birth is Christ in us through the SPirit which dwells in us. that which God sees and not our flesh which is death because of sin. read rom 8. read heb 9:14. the FACT that we live by the Spirit, which is Christ is how we are united in his death. because it is Christ which died and it is he who God sees in us, his ONE ACT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS AND ONE ACT OF OBEDIANCE. rom 5. That is why it is CALLED GRACE. as for those using mark 16:16. he is speaking of HIS baptism, whom John the baptist spoke about. he is saying those who believe in me and are baptized by me will be saved but those who do not believe in me will not be baptized by me. Titus 3:5 is so clear in saying that the SPirit is what gives us our rebirth and renewal. the ONLY WORK given us to do is told even asked of Christ and he answered it in john 6:28-29. it is UNDENIABLE. "Jesus answered, " The WORK of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." Why do you complecate it so. Read on and he speaks of eating his flesh and drinking his blood. what does he say it means "The words i speak they are SPIRIT AND THEY ARE LIFE." Why people insist on adding a act of ours in water baptism to it i do not understand.