Do you agree with this statement?

[patricius79]

The prophecy in Genesis didn't place any importance on who she was.
That is what I'm saying.

Do carry on.

I take it you mean Isaiah. Isaiah says "the virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and call him Immanuel (which means "God with us") ".

You say what Isaiah means is that "her person isn't the point".

Can you explain your logic?

Or is there any Scripture which says that God would have become man without Mary?

 

[Rick Otto]

I take it you mean Isaiah. When it says "the virgin will conceive", you say this means "her person isn't the point".

Can you explain your logic?

Or is there any Scripture which says that God would have become man without Mary?

I don't feel obligated regarding a scripture that says God would have become man without Mary, because I regard it as a misguided question.
Why would you take me to mean Isaiah when I said Genesis? (' the seed of the woman')
My logic is as I said before... the scriptures that amply illustrate the many faceted, multi-leveled importance of Mary as a person, are after the fact of her fulfilling the prophecy with which your question confined your interest in her to.
I'm not anti-Mary,... I just like to keep it real.
What I am averse to is the near swoon people work themselves into over her, fueled by shallow thinking, and deep emotion. It is a volatile mix.

 

[Mrs_RC]

Personally, everything I have is from God. If God did not give me the opportunity I could not enjoy listening to Christmas carols.

Some people of certain religion do not like Christmas carols. It is so called propagation of the Christian faith ... Alleluia we are in the advent season yippee I am so happy

Really?
As a child, a grown up atheist and an intelligent pantheist, I have sung Christmas Carols in hospital wards and hospices. The joy that people feel from beautiful music does not necessarily come from faith. To assume that one love subsumes the other is arrogant and unintelligent.

To deny someone the beauty of music on their deathbed by means of hatred or cruelty or judgement is not something that I can ever be party to.

 

[patricius79]

I don't feel obligated regarding a scripture that says God would have become man without Mary, because I regard it as a misguided question.
Why would you take me to mean Isaiah when I said Genesis? (' the seed of the woman')
My logic is as I said before... the scriptures that amply illustrate the many faceted, multi-leveled importance of Mary as a person, are after the fact of her fulfilling the prophecy with which your question confined your interest in her to.
I'm not anti-Mary,... I just like to keep it real.
What I am averse to is the near swoon people work themselves into over her, fueled by shallow thinking, and deep emotion. It is a volatile mix.

I thought you quoted the passage about the Virgin, which is Isaiah.

What exactly is your argument from Genesis?

It sounds like we agree that the Bible never says that Mary could have been replaced with someone else.

Assuming your opinion that the Scriptures of the New Covenant are much more clear about the importance of Mary, isn't that true about the person of Christ--one person in two natures-- as well?

I'm sure you don't mean to imply that Christ could have been replaced with someone else.

Also, even if the N.T. says much more explicitly about Mary, why would that indicate that she was dispensable as far as her role in our salvation?

 

[Rick Otto]

I thought you quoted the passage about the Virgin, which is Isaiah.

What exactly is your argument from Genesis?

It sounds like we agree that the Bible never says that Mary could have been replaced with someone else.

Assuming your opinion that the Scriptures of the New Covenant are much more clear about the importance of Mary, isn't that true about the person of Christ--one person in two natures-- as well?

I'm sure you don't mean to imply that Christ could have been replaced with someone else.

Also, even if the N.T. says much more explicitly about Mary, why would that indicate that she was dispensable as far as her role in our salvation?

We are not connecting on this.
Her individuality... her personality... the facts that make those up, are what is "dispensable".
Actually, dispensable is far too harsh. "Relatively unimportant" would be more accurate.

What I rebel against is putting her on so high a pedestal, that she seems otherworldly, and more than human.
It is merely the excesses of hero worship I fear.

 

[concretecamper]

I wonder why the Genesis account says "the " woman and not "a" woman. "The" seems to suggest identification while "a" woman could mean just and Sally, Jane, or Jill.

 

[patricius79]

We are not connecting on this.
Her individuality... her personality... the facts that make those up, are what is "dispensable".
Actually, dispensable is far too harsh. "Relatively unimportant" would be more accurate.

What I rebel against is putting her on so high a pedestal, that she seems otherworldly, and more than human.
It is merely the excesses of hero worship I fear.

We are not connecting on this.
Her individuality... her personality... the facts that make those up, are what is "dispensable".
Actually, dispensable is far too harsh. "Relatively unimportant" would be more accurate.

What I rebel against is putting her on so high a pedestal, that she seems otherworldly, and more than human.
It is merely the excesses of hero worship I fear.

Well, then, we would disagree, because Mary is my hero, because she conceived Jesus Christ, my God and salvation. But we can at least pray for each other.

 

[Kirsten]

"Without the Virgin Mary, there would be no Jesus Christ. Without the Virgin Mary there would be no Mother Church."

Yes or No?

Without Jesus Christ, there would be no Mary, or anyone else for that matter. Without Jesus Christ, He would have no Church, His Bride, which consists of all born-again believers. The Church is not a religion, just people.

 

[Kirsten]

Well yes, God didn't exactly shoot a lightning bolt to the ground and Jesus was suddenly there now did he?

He certainly could have but He had a plan.

 

[Kirsten]

"Without the Virgin Mary, there would be no Jesus Christ. Without the Virgin Mary there would be no Mother Church."

Yes or No?

The Church is not a mother. The Church is the Bride of Christ consisting of all believers. We are His Bride, not His mother.

 

[Rick Otto]

Well, then, we would disagree, because Mary is my hero, because she conceived Jesus Christ, my God and salvation. But we can at least pray for each other.

Ok, but pray to God please, not Mary.
Thank you.

 

[Kirsten]

Well, then, we would disagree, because Mary is my hero, because she conceived Jesus Christ, my God and salvation. But we can at least pray for each other.

I don't recall Mary doing anything heroic. She was certainly blessed to be chosen the give birth to Jesus, but heroic? I don't see it. Heroic to me is the courage of the disciples to preach the gospel under threat of death, and many of them were killed for their faith. Now that is heroic.

 

[patricius79]

I don't recall Mary doing anything heroic. She was certainly blessed to be chosen the give birth to Jesus, but heroic? I don't see it. Heroic to me is the courage of the disciples to preach the gospel under threat of death, and many of them were killed for their faith. Now that is heroic.

Are you saying it is not heroic to consent to be the Mother of the Christ, to raise him knowing how greatly he will suffer, or to follow him to the Cross?

 

[Rick Otto]

Are you saying it is not heroic to consent to be the Mother of the Christ, to raise him knowing how greatly he will suffer, or to follow him to the Cross?

She put it in perspective.
Let's not have difficulty with that.
I considered her heroic too, but Kirsten was talking blood and guts... fear of certain, immediate, painful death.
Little bit different, Don you think?
Cut it some slack. You feel like your going for a "gotchya" moment.
I don't wanna believe that.

 

[patricius79]

She put it in perspective.
Let's not have difficulty with that.
I considered her heroic too, but Kirsten was talking blood and guts... fear of certain, immediate, painful death.
Little bit different, Don you think?
Cut it some slack. You feel like your going for a "gotchya" moment.
I don't wanna believe that.

I'm just asking questions to clarify and to express where I'm coming from. Obviously we are coming from very different traditions. You two would see the Apostles as being more in the way of martyrdom. I think that Mary's martyrdom so far exceeds that of all the rest of the Church combined, that it really can't even be expressed in human language.

 

[Rick Otto]

I'm just asking questions to clarify and to express where I'm coming from. Obviously we are coming from very different traditions. You two would see the Apostles as being more in the way of martyrdom. I think that Mary's martyrdom so far exceeds that of all the rest of the Church combined, that it really can't even be expressed in human language.

I am unaware of her martyrdom.
Tell me of it.

 

[patricius79]

I am unaware of her martyrdom.
Tell me of it.

When the angel said, "with God, every word will not be impossible", the whole plan of salvation hung in the balance. Mary's decision had to be free. She knew the Scriptures. She knew how terribly the Messiah would suffer, and that in saying "yes", she was embracing the Cross. As Simeon said, "a sword will pierce your own soul also".

We can imagine knowing that our child would be tortured to death. That would give us a slight glimpse into the suffering of the Mother of God.

 

[Rick Otto]

When the angel said, "with God, every word will not be impossible", the whole plan of salvation hung in the balance. Mary's decision had to be free. She knew the Scriptures. She knew how terribly the Messiah would suffer, and that in saying "yes", she was embracing the Cross. As Simeon said, "a sword will pierce your own soul also".

We can imagine knowing that our child would be tortured to death. That would give us a slight glimpse into the suffering of the Mother of God.

Thank you.
I see you have a broader definition of martyrdom than most people.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Thank you.
I see you have a broader definition of martyrdom than most people.

I wonder how this fits into the dogma of the Assumption.

 

[ClothedInGrace]

"Without the Virgin Mary, there would be no Jesus Christ. Without the Virgin Mary there would be no Mother Church."

Yes or No?

Jesus is the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. He has existed in eternity before he even planned to create Mary. Without Christ, there would be no Mary, not the other way around.