Do you agree with this statement?

[James Is Back]

Without God, no world, no Internet, all will be gloom-ee

Very true

 

[xTx]

Very true

Personally, everything I have is from God. If God did not give me the opportunity I could not enjoy listening to Christmas carols.

Some people of certain religion do not like Christmas carols. It is so called propagation of the Christian faith ... Alleluia we are in the advent season yippee I am so happy

 

[Erth]

"Without the Virgin Mary, there would be no Jesus Christ.

I disagree. The whole question is hypothetical, presupposing that it could have been that Mary had refused to accept God's calling to be the Mother of God. Indeed she could have. God did not force her to take up the calling, but she gracefully and humbly accepted it. It is of course unlikely that God should have called someone who was not ready for such a great mystery to fulfill a vital part of it, but after the way that you are asking, I think that the answer has to be this: If she had refused, then God would have carried out His great plan in some other way, let's say perhaps with another woman. But we know that Mary did accept the calling and that she did her part very well. As a priest once said to me: She passed the test and got the highest grade.

Mary's calling is greater than any calling that other human beings can hope for, but that surely does not mean that God disqualified Mary from excercising her free will. Every human being is called to play a part in God's Kingdom, but not everyone accepts. God is always near, and He gets many refusals. God does not refrain from calling out of fear that the call will not be taken.

I see that chapmic, justinangel and Optimax have already said things quite similar to what I'm saying:

No, I don't agree with either statement. God could have chosen another person if he wanted to. Mary was a vessel for Jesus, and we all can be used to be God's vessel is his choice and there is no way any person can stop God's plans

God honours our free will. God is love. And love always involves a choice. If Mary had no choice in becoming the mother of our Lord, then God could not be love. God desires that we freely love Him and put our faith in Him when we do what He asks of us. There is no coercion in love. Nor is God coercion.

If Mary had not received what she was told then God would have used someone else.

However, The Lord knew Mary's heart.

Therefore He knew she would respond properly.

 

[Meowzltov]

With a couple modifications:

*There would be no incarnate Jesus Christ.

There would be no Mother Church in Christ, because the assembly of God as such pre-existed the Virgin Mary.

There ya go.

 

[pat34lee]

"Without the Virgin Mary, there would be no Jesus Christ. Without the Virgin Mary there would be no Mother Church."

Yes or No?

Wrong. Remember the warning that Mordechai gave to Esther.

Esther 4:14
For if thou altogether holdest thy peace at this time, then shall there enlargement and
deliverance arise to the Jews from another place; but thou and thy father's house shall
be destroyed: and who knoweth whether thou art come to the kingdom for such a time as this?
​

To put Mary in the position of being able to thwart God's will is to make her equal to him. She is not.

 

[pat34lee]

Because of Eve's disobedience all men died. Because of Mary's obedience, all men live. Who is more worthy of a title?

Wrong. Because of Mary's obedience, Jesus was born. Because of his obedience, all men live. After Jesus' birth, what Mary did no longer mattered to mankind.

 

[concretecamper]

To put Mary in the position of being able to thwart God's will is to make her equal to him. She is not.

God wills everyone to be saved. Many perish because of their sin. Looks like our free will is pretty powerful. But our free will does not make us equal to God.

 

[pat34lee]

God wills everyone to be saved. Many perish because of their sin. Looks like our free will is pretty powerful. But our free will does not make us equal to God.

We are responsible for our actions. We can choose to disobey God. We cannot stop his will for anything else. Jonah learned that the hard way.
So did Pharaoh, and so will the anti-christ.

 

[Rick Otto]

"Without the Virgin Mary, there would be no Jesus Christ. Without the Virgin Mary there would be no Mother Church."

Yes or No?

If you mean it impersonally, as in it could've been The Virgin Louise, I agree in that a virgin birth was required.
She is not however, responsible for the ecclesia that comprise the 'body of Christ'.

 

[tz620q]

"Without the Virgin Mary, there would be no Jesus Christ. Without the Virgin Mary there would be no Mother Church."

Yes or No?

Isn't it strange how this thread has gone over 200 posts and 9 months and no one asked where did this statement come from and what is the context for it?

It was not from a homily or an encyclical from Pope Francis; but from his morning meditation on September 15, 2014. The day before this the church had celebrated Christ at the Cross and this day is celebrated as the Feast day for Our Lady of Sorrows. This day is to remember Mary at the foot of the Cross. So the meditation is on this event. You can read the L'Osservatore Romano reporting on it here:

https://w2.vatican.va/content/franc...a-francesco-cotidie_20140915_three-women.html

It is titled "Three Women" and is quite short. Here is part of it:

Mary too, “the Mother, the New Eve, as Paul himself called her, follows this path of her son: she learned, she suffered and she obeyed”. She “became ‘Mother’. We could say that she is the ‘anointed Mother’, the Pontiff affirmed, and the same is true for the Church.

The point of his meditation seems to be that Christ learned, suffered and obeyed. Like Christ, Mary, the Church, and we ourselves are called to learn, to suffer, and to obey.

 

[Rick Otto]

No sir, I do not find it strange.

 

[patricius79]

If Mary had not received what she was told then God would have used someone else.

However, The Lord knew Mary's heart.

Therefore He knew she would respond properly.

I don't think we know that God would have used someone else. The Bible never tells us that, and--to my knowledge--neither does the Church

 

[Rick Otto]

I don't think we know that God would have used someone else. The Bible never tells us that, and--to my knowledge--neither does the Church

Scripture guarantees a virgin birth, not a particular mother.
The bible tells us that in Genesis.
It's only one of the first things one learns about Christianity.
smh

 

[patricius79]

Scripture guarantees a virgin birth, not a particular mother.
The bible tells us that in Genesis.
It's only one of the first things one learns about Christianity.
smh

Does the Bible say that another person might have been chosen to conceive God?

 

[Rick Otto]

Does the Bible say that another person might have been chosen to conceive God?

What if says is that a virgin will...
Implying her person isn't the point.
So to put her personality in such a mission critical status is not what the Bible says is the case.

 

[patricius79]

What if says is that a virgin will...
Implying her person isn't the point.
.

So the Bible doesn't say that another person might have been chosen?

 

[Rick Otto]

So the Bible doesn't say that another person might have been chosen?

It doesn't directly address the question because the question is beside the point of the prophecy within that narrative. It doesn't say who it would be any more than her eye color... beside the point.

Stronger approach to emphasizing her special status would be to put her in the line of David.

 

[Mrs_RC]

"Without the Virgin Mary, there would be no Jesus Christ. Without the Virgin Mary there would be no Mother Church."

Yes or No?

That's not a yes or no question. You are asking two things, one of which is dependent on the first.

 

[patricius79]

It doesn't directly address the question because the question is beside the point of the prophecy within that narrative. It doesn't say who it would be any more than her eye color... beside the point.

Stronger approach to emphasizing her special status would be to put her in the line of David.

So you are saying that who the virgin Mother of the Lord would be is beside the point, or unimportant, even though the Bible doesn't say that?

 

[Rick Otto]

So you are saying that who the virgin would be is beside the point, or unimportant, even though the Bible doesn't say that?

The prophecy in Genesis didn't place any importance on who she was.
That is what I'm saying.

Do carry on.