Do you agree that Christians should obey all 613 commandments?

SummaScriptura · Mar 6, 2012

1. Love God with all of your self.
2. Love strangers as yourself.
3. Love the brethren as I have loved you.

The New Commandment requires love within the community of faith at a higher level than elsewhere.

That's how I see it.

Lulav · Mar 6, 2012

brinny said:
as in trusting that Jesus accomplished what josephearl posted? it appears he does.

Do you?

I was quoting Joseph and thus asking him. You have not answered this yet you ask me if I do? Of course I do, but that is neither here nor there. James was speaking about the new Heathens/Gentiles that were turning to G-d. I am not a Gentile.

brinny · Mar 6, 2012

Lulav said:
I was quoting Joseph and thus asking him. You have not answered this yet you ask me if I do? Of course I do, but that is neither here nor there. James was speaking about the new Heathens/Gentiles that were turning to G-d. I am not a Gentile.

you are a child of the most High, are you not? and yes, i agree completely with what josephearl posted. Jesus' work is finished. he accomplished what He came to do. You asked josephearl if he follows what he posted.....do you mean believe what he posted? it wasn't clear to me.

Originally Posted by josephearl
Jesus fulfilled the Law so we do not have to. He said it is finished. Either it is or it isn't. Which do you believe? If righteousness could be attained by the Law then Christ died for nothing. The summation of it is found in Acts 15. and the familiar 'If we love the Lord with all our hearts, love our neighbors as ourselves', and follow these words...
““For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell.”” (Acts 15:28–29, NASB95)
I can see no reason to point a finger at anyone and say they are lacking. I mean what do we do argue with the Holy Ghost? If he says we are doing well who are we to tell someone otherwise? Jesus lived under the Law perfectly, he died under the Law sinless and arose to heaven to present that offering to the Father. It was accepted. He now gives us grace within these boundaries I have set forth as I see it in the Scripture.

Lulav · Mar 6, 2012

brinny said:
I don't believe those 613 commandments are God-breathed. it is man that embellished such redundancy and nonsensical "poundings" of oppression and distortion.

So you don't believe that G-d commanded any of this?

To know there is a God ~ Exodus 20:02

Not to entertain thoughts of other gods besides Him ~ Exodus 20:03
To know that He is one ~ Deuteronomy 6:04
To love Him ~ Deuteronomy 6:05
To fear Him ~ Deuteronomy 10:20
To sanctify His Name ~ Leviticus 22:32
Not to profane His Name ~ Leviticus 22:32
Not to destroy objects associated with His Name ~ Deuteronomy 12:04
To listen to the prophet speaking in His Name ~ Deuteronomy 18:15
Not to test the prophet unduly ~ Deuteronomy 6:16

Which of these in your sight is redundant?

brinny said:
Jesus himself, the Lord of the Sabbath, and God Himself in the flesh clarified who He is and what He provides.

So you only take the NT as the true word of G-d and nothing from Moses or any of the other prophets, or Kings?

brinny said:
Here we see WHO God is...the Lifter of our heads, and the Wiper Away-er of our tears, and the Embracer of the weary:

Yet, it wasn't Jesus that spoke of that, It was King David. And this same King was the one who wrote many songs proclaiming how good G-ds Torah was and is. And it is the Prophet Isaiah who spoke of G-d wiping away the tears. This is repeated in Revelation but spoken through Isaiah first.

brinny said:
"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." ~Matthew 11:28-29

I am not sure why you have posted this. Are you equating this as others have wrongly done that G-ds instructions are a burden?

brinny said:
Jesus clarified the commandments that summarize what is required for a child of the most High:

"Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.' ~Matthew 22:36-40

Yet you said that was not a command of G-d?above (To love Him ~ Deuteronomy 6:05) That is the Shema, that is what Jesus was speaking of. It is found in /Deuteronomy, which you claim was written by man, thus not to be followed.

Oh, and the second part, to Love your neighbor as yourself? That comes from another part of Torah, Leviticus, (19:18) There was no clarification. In fact Jesus was just repeating something another Rabbi had taught before, his name was Hillel.

brinny said:
it is similar to this verse:

"He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?" ~Micah 6:8

To do justly and love mercy and walk humbly before G-d is to love him by keeping his commandment and love and show mercy to your neighbor as yourself.

brinny said:
we recognize WHO God is by his Father-heart. Jesus was correct when He said to Phillip:

"Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?" ~John 14:9

I don't see where this comes into the subject of this discussion. Phillip could have been asking to see the Father, to see him, but since he is spirit and can't be seen Jesus told him that in looking at him and what he did and said he was in a way a human can, 'seeing' the Father.

brinny · Mar 6, 2012

Lulav said:
So you don't believe that G-d commanded any of this?

Which of these in your sight is redundant?

So you only take the NT as the true word of G-d and nothing from Moses or any of the other prophets, or Kings?

Yet, it wasn't Jesus that spoke of that, It was King David. And this same King was the one who wrote many songs proclaiming how good G-ds Torah was and is. And it is the Prophet Isaiah who spoke of G-d wiping away the tears. This is repeated in Revelation but spoken through Isaiah first.

I am not sure why you have posted this. Are you equating this as others have wrongly done that G-ds instructions are a burden?

Yet you said that was not a command of G-d?above (To love Him ~ Deuteronomy 6:05) That is the Shema, that is what Jesus was speaking of. It is found in /Deuteronomy, which you claim was written by man, thus not to be followed.

Oh, and the second part, to Love your neighbor as yourself? That comes from another part of Torah, Leviticus, (19:18) There was no clarification. In fact Jesus was just repeating something another Rabbi had taught before, his name was Hillel.

To do justly and love mercy and walk humbly before G-d is to love him by keeping his commandment and love and show mercy to your neighbor as yourself.

I don't see where this comes into the subject of this discussion. Phillip could have been asking to see the Father, to see him, but since he is spirit and can't be seen Jesus told him that in looking at him and what he did and said he was in a way a human can, 'seeing' the Father.

it's clearly man's "wisdom' thus the redundancy ad nauseum.

if one loves El Elyon , the most high with alltheir mind, heart, soul, and strength, they are guided by god's very own eye and their heart is in the capable hands of Abba, Who continually transforms this one's heart to be in sync with His.

When one loves our Abba, they "walk" with him, as this verse states.

what does God require of us? well it's right here in all of His glorious simplicity.

He showed us, did he not?

"He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?' ~Micah 6:8

Lulav · Mar 6, 2012

brinny said:
you are a child of the most High, are you not? and yes, i agree completely with what josephearl posted. Jesus' work is finished. he accomplished what He came to do. You asked josephearl if he follows what he posted.....do you mean believe what he posted? it wasn't clear to me.

Again, Brinny, I was asking him if he followed those rules handed down in Acts 15.

If Jesus work is finished as many believe it is then how is it that he is serving in heaven right now or don't you believe that?

Everything that has been prophesied in the Bible has not come to pass, therefore the Torah cannot pass either.

brinny · Mar 6, 2012

Originally Posted by brinny
you are a child of the most High, are you not? and yes, i agree completely with what josephearl posted. Jesus' work is finished. he accomplished what He came to do. You asked josephearl if he follows what he posted.....do you mean believe what he posted? it wasn't clear to me.

Lulav said:
Again, Brinny, I was asking him if he followed those rules handed down in Acts 15.

If Jesus work is finished as many believe it is then how is it that he is serving in heaven right now or don't you believe that?

Everything that has been prophesied in the Bible has not come to pass, therefore the Torah cannot pass either.

just wondering about your thinking on this: is the Torah the Word of God or something else?

and Jesus....is He with the Father now? Is He sitting at the right hand of the Father?

brinny · Mar 6, 2012

Lulav quote: I don't see where this comes into the subject of this discussion. Phillip could have been asking to see the Father, to see him, but since he is spirit and can't be seen Jesus told him that in looking at him and what he did and said he was in a way a human can, 'seeing' the Father.

Jesus IS and was God incarnate. God was in the flesh, here, walking among us. God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit, are the trinity, one God.

Please elaborate on your above response. I wasn't following you. Thank you.

Prayer Circle · Mar 6, 2012

When certain Christians think they have a right to force national policy to comport with their particular faiths creed, so as to revoke the rights of certain American citizens,such as women and gays, due to the tenets those particular Christians argue has a right to dictate other peoples lives, by law and against their will, then absolutely!

Prayer Circle · Mar 6, 2012

dbl pst

brinny · Mar 7, 2012

613 Laws of the Old Testament

obeying these 613 commandments will not save anyone.

JRSut1000 · Mar 7, 2012

The 613 arent a salvational issue, never was! It was always by faith in God, but the faithful are obedient, yes?

Now do we obey ALL 613 today, no definitely not. There is no temple and Y'shua (Jesus) is our sin atonement. Also it is not possible for us here in America to follow every judicial law as set forth in Torah. BUT dont throw it all out, there is still much wisdom in even the seemingly small things as dietary laws and how we treat other people and in celebrating/observing the Holy Days.

tzadik · Mar 7, 2012

Give me one good reason why we should throw away or get rid of ANY of God's Word?
Does Matthew 4:4 say that we should live by only the "NT" Word of God, or only the words repeated by Messiah, or only the words taught by Paul, or only the words in the Gospels, or does it clearly state---quoting Deuteronomy 8:3 that we should live by EVERY WORD that proceeds out of the mouth of God?

That should be our goal, to live according to God's Word. Line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little.

Lulav · Mar 7, 2012

brinny said:
613 Laws of the Old Testament

obeying these 613 commandments will not save anyone.

Then you don't listen to anything Jesus said?

brinny · Mar 7, 2012

Originally Posted by brinny
613 Laws of the Old Testament

obeying these 613 commandments will not save anyone.

Lulav said:
Then you don't listen to anything Jesus said?

will they, Lulav?

listed · Mar 7, 2012

brinny said:
613 Laws of the Old Testament

obeying these 613 commandments will not save anyone.

Then why bother? Is it that disobedience to them will keep one from possessing/retaining/having salvation?

listed · Mar 7, 2012

tzadik said:
Give me one good reason why we should throw away or get rid of ANY of God's Word?
Does Matthew 4:4 say that we should live by only the "NT" Word of God, or only the words repeated by Messiah, or only the words taught by Paul, or only the words in the Gospels, or does it clearly state---quoting Deuteronomy 8:3 that we should live by EVERY WORD that proceeds out of the mouth of God?

That should be our goal, to live according to God's Word. Line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little.

Give me one reason why anyone should subject themselves to a completed and retired covenant having no jurisdiction.

It seems some want the salvation of the new covenant and then demand obligation the the law which is the ministration of death. Isn't one the subject of who or what they obey?

Wally Cleaver · Mar 7, 2012

Matt. 5:19

Whoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

tzadik · Mar 7, 2012

listed said:
Give me one reason why anyone should subject themselves to a completed and retired covenant having no jurisdiction.

Seems like I’m using the alphabet a lot with you lately. Let’s do it again.

A. Covenant is not synonomous with God’s Law. The Covenant is the agreement which contains God’s law, as well as blessings, curses, consequences, promises, stipulations, provisions and instructions.

B. Ironically enough the “New Covenant” in Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 ALSO contains God’s Law, this time written on the hearts. So better luck ‘erasing’ God’s Law from the Covenants.

C. The only way you as a wild olive branch can claim ANY of the promises and covenants made between God and God’s People, is for you through Messiah to become grafted in AMONG God’s people. Outside of this you remain strangers to the covenants, excluded from the commonwealth of God’s Israel. (unless of course you use an eraser and remove the two houses written in Jer 31 and Heb 8 and put your own name in there)

D. So, yes, if you want to claim the New Covenant, make sure you are well aware that you are claiming that God’s Holy Law is written on your heart. That same Law that you are so SET on getting rid of.

listed said:
It seems some want the salvation of the new covenant and then demand obligation the the law which is the ministration of death. Isn't one the subject of who or what they obey?

It seems that some want Messiah as their savior without being willing to make Messiah their Lord, choosing to NOT give up their own ways, their own will, their own plans, their own rules and celebrating their own man-made feasts, instead of walking in God’s ways, doing God’s Will, according to God’s plan, obeying God’s rules and celebrating His feasts.

I am indeed subject to who I obey, whether it’s sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness! I choose to obey God’s Law and Word which Paul tells us is righteous, holy, perfect, spiritual and good (Romans 7:12)

SolomonVII · Mar 7, 2012

Wally Cleaver said:
Matt. 5:19

Whoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Teaching about the Law.
17
* “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.
18
Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.m
19
Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever obeys and teaches these commandments will be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven.*
20
I tell you, unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Your quote has an interesting end to it.

Which is worse, to break the commands and teach others to do so also, and be the least in heaven on account of that, or to (somewhat) obey and teach the commandments, but not enter heaven at all in spite of this, on account of lack of sufficient righteousness?

If you can bear the yoke of the law, by all means do so, for your reward will be great. You will be the greatest in heaven by far.

But just remember that Jesus came because all the scribes and all the pharisees had fallen short, and had been broken by that yoke.

Follow him instead, because his yoke is light.

Do you agree that Christians should obey all 613 commandments?

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