Do you agree that Christians should obey all 613 commandments?

[from scratch]

No, im saying the Holy Spirit leads us using the written doctrine of Christ that you keep referring to as a list.

Oh it isn't a list that you provide. Excuse me. Jesus doesn't teach or enforce the law. Great example would be John 8:1-11.

 

[mwood30]

Oh it isn't a list that you provide. Excuse me. Jesus doesn't teach or enforce the law. Great example would be John 8:1-11.

I'm not sure why you highlight the law when the Bible talks about two of them. Take Galatians for example. It talks about the Law of Moses which came 430 years after God's promise to Abraham:

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. - Galatians 3:16-17
​

And then there is Jesus' Law (the Law of Christ):

Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. - Galatians 6:2
​

One law we are commanded to not follow. The other law, we are required to follow. There isn't just one law. And the law you are promoting happens to be the law we're not supposed to follow.

You do realize that the very passage you quoted was Jesus' way of telling the people NOT to follow Moses' Law, but to follow the Golden Rule instead.

 

[11822]

Oh it isn't a list that you provide. Excuse me. Jesus doesn't teach or enforce the law. Great example would be John 8:1-11.

Im not quoting the commandment to condemn anyone, we're free indeed. However Christ commands this through the apostles and we cannot use Paul's words in Galatians to throw out Pauls words in 1Th that commands us according to Christ and the will of God.




1Th 4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
1Th 4:2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
1Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
1Th 4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
1Th 4:5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
1Th 4:6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
1Th 4:7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
1Th 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
1Th 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

 

[from scratch]

I'm not sure why you highlight the law when the Bible talks about two of them. Take Galatians for example. It talks about the Law of Moses which came 430 years after God's promise to Abraham:

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. - Galatians 3:16-17
​

And then there is Jesus' Law (the Law of Christ):

Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. - Galatians 6:2
​

One law we are commanded to not follow. The other law, we are required to follow. There isn't just one law. And the law you are promoting happens to be the law we're not supposed to follow.

You do realize that the very passage you quoted was Jesus' way of telling the people NOT to follow Moses' Law, but to follow the Golden Rule instead.

I do this to make the point of what I'm talking about when I say the law. Th law of Jesus (His commandments) aren't what is being pushed. It also ins't the law of God that is being pushed. It is the law meaning the Torah's requirements that are partially being pushed. The NT refers to the Torah/Pentateuch as the law. The idea is seen all over the NT.

There are confusing ideas posted about law here in GT and that is why I post in such a manner.

 

[from scratch]

Im not quoting the commandment to condemn anyone, we're free indeed. However Christ commands this through the apostles and we cannot use Paul's words in Galatians to throw out Pauls words in 1Th that commands us according to Christ and the will of God.

Could I ask the purpose of your quoting the commandemnts and implying obligation to them means?

Paul doesn't mean to annihilate the law and neither do I.

 

[mwood30]

Im not quoting the commandment to condemn anyone, we're free indeed. However Christ commands this through the apostles and we cannot use Paul's words in Galatians to throw out Pauls words in 1Th that commands us according to Christ and the will of God.




1Th 4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
1Th 4:2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
1Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
1Th 4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
1Th 4:5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
1Th 4:6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
1Th 4:7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
1Th 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
1Th 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

Freedom doesn't mean "free from any law whatsoever." We are free from the Law of Moses in order to be enslaved to the Law of Christ.

To the Jews I became as a Jew in order to win Jews; to those who are under the Torah, I acted as one under the Torah (though I myself was not under the Torah) in order to win those who are under the Torah;

to those who are without Torah, I acted as one without Torah (though not being without the law of God but under the Law of the Messianic King) in order that I might win those who are without Torah. – 1 Corinthians 9:20-21
​

Paul was not under the Torah, but he was under the Law of Christ. Christians are freed from Torah to be enslaved to Jesus' Law, the law that is fulfilled by loving our neighbors as ourselves.

He who loves others has fulfilled the Law. For ‘don’t commit adultery,’ ‘don’t murder,’ ‘don’t steal,’ ‘don’t covet,’ and if there be any other commandment it is recapitulated in this one statement, in the saying, “Love your neighbor as yourself.” - Romans 13:8-9
​

It's Jesus' Law that is fulfilled by loving others as ourselves. Moses' Law cannot be fulfilled this way.

 

[mwood30]

I do this to make the point of what I'm talking about when I say the law. Th law of Jesus (His commandments) aren't what is being pushed. It also ins't the law of God that is being pushed. It is the law meaning the Torah's requirements that are partially being pushed. The NT refers to the Torah/Pentateuch as the law. The idea is seen all over the NT.

There are confusing ideas posted about law here in GT and that is why I post in such a manner.

Yes, when the topic is Moses' Law, then the Bible refers to it as 'the Law'. When the topic is Jesus' Law, then the Bible refers to it as 'the Law.' The use of pronouns, contractions, and the like always follow the topic. Here is a clear case where 'the Law' is referring to Jesus' Law (not Moses' Law):

He who loves others has fulfilled the Law. For ‘don’t commit adultery,’ ‘don’t murder,’ ‘don’t steal,’ ‘don’t covet,’ and if there be any other commandment it is recapitulated in this one statement, in the saying, “Love your neighbor as yourself.” - Romans 13:8-9
​

It's Jesus' Law that is fulfilled by love of others, not Moses' Law. Here, Jesus' Law is referred to as 'the Law.'

 

[11822]

Freedom doesn't mean "free from any law whatsoever." We are free from the Law of Moses in order to be enslaved to the Law of Christ.

To the Jews I became as a Jew in order to win Jews; to those who are under the Torah, I acted as one under the Torah (though I myself was not under the Torah) in order to win those who are under the Torah;

to those who are without Torah, I acted as one without Torah (though not being without the law of God but under the Law of the Messianic King) in order that I might win those who are without Torah. – 1 Corinthians 9:20-21
​

Paul was not under the Torah, but he was under the Law of Christ. Christians are freed from Torah to be enslaved to Jesus' Law, the law that is fulfilled by loving our neighbors as ourselves.

He who loves others has fulfilled the Law. For ‘don’t commit adultery,’ ‘don’t murder,’ ‘don’t steal,’ ‘don’t covet,’ and if there be any other commandment it is recapitulated in this one statement, in the saying, “Love your neighbor as yourself.” - Romans 13:8-9
​

It's Jesus' Law that is fulfilled by loving others as ourselves. Moses' Law cannot be fulfilled this way.

I totally agree that we're slaves to Christs law. I believe the 10 commandments are a foundation to the law of love and are still alive in the NC.

 

[11822]

Could I ask the purpose of your quoting the commandemnts and implying obligation to them means?

Paul doesn't mean to annihilate the law and neither do I.

That would be stating the obvious. And i have already done so many, many times brother.

 

[mwood30]

I totally agree that we're slaves to Christs law. I believe the 10 commandments are a foundation to the law of love and are still alive in the NC.

When the young man asked Jesus which commandments he must follow to have life, did Jesus answer "all 10 of them" or did he skip over the first four and only name those what are based on the Golden Rule?

And someone came to him and said, “Teacher, which beneficient thing must I do that I may have the life of the age to come?”

But he answered him, “Why are you asking me about what is beneficient. There is only one who is beneficient. But if you want to enter into that life, keep the commandments.”

The man said to him, “Which kind?”

And Jesus said, “Don’t murder, don’t be unfaithful, don’t steal, don’t lie, honor your father and mother – love your neighbor as yourself.” - Matthew 19:16-19
​

When the man asked which kind of commandments he must follow to inherit life in the age to come, Jesus said, “Those that are based on loving your neighbor as yourself.” This is why Paul wrote that anyone loves others has fulfilled the Law:

He who loves others has fulfilled the Law. For ‘don’t be unfaithful,’ ‘don’t murder,’ ‘don’t steal,’ ‘don’t covet,’ and if there be any other commandment it is recapitulated in this one statement, in the saying, “Love your neighbor as yourself.” - Romans 13:8-9
​

If all the ten commandments were still active, then Paul was wrong.

 

[11822]

When the young man asked Jesus which commandments he must follow to have life, did Jesus answer "all 10 of them" or did he skip over the first four and only name those what are based on the Golden Rule?

And someone came to him and said, “Teacher, which beneficient thing must I do that I may have the life of the age to come?”

But he answered him, “Why are you asking me about what is beneficient. There is only one who is beneficient. But if you want to enter into that life, keep the commandments.”

The man said to him, “Which kind?”

And Jesus said, “Don’t murder, don’t be unfaithful, don’t steal, don’t lie, honor your father and mother – love your neighbor as yourself.” - Matthew 19:16-19
​

When the man asked which kind of commandments he must follow to inherit life in the age to come, Jesus said, “Those that are based on loving your neighbor as yourself.” This is why Paul wrote that anyone loves others has fulfilled the Law:

He who loves others has fulfilled the Law. For ‘don’t be unfaithful,’ ‘don’t murder,’ ‘don’t steal,’ ‘don’t covet,’ and if there be any other commandment it is recapitulated in this one statement, in the saying, “Love your neighbor as yourself.” - Romans 13:8-9
​

If all the ten commandments were still active, then Paul was wrong.

No argument here. I only supported 6 of them as doctrine of Christ. But romans 14 shows tolerance to anyone obeying all 10 Cs and a reason to obey.

 

[mwood30]

No argument here. I only supported 6 of them as doctrine of Christ. But romans 14 shows tolerance to anyone obeying all 10 Cs and a reason to obey.

I agree with Romans 14 that those who are weak in faith should keep all 10 if they are not strong enough to accept the Golden Rule as the entire Law.

 

[11822]

I agree with Romans 14 that those who are weak in faith should keep all 10 if they are not strong enough to accept the Golden Rule as the entire Law.

Maybe some observe Sabbath to honor God. Either way the sabbath is not bad for them to observe as long as their Hope is in Jesus Christ and not the law.

 

[mwood30]

Maybe some observe Sabbath to honor God. Either way the sabbath is not bad for them to observe as long as their Hope is in Jesus Christ and not the law.

As long as their hope is in Jesus and his Law.

 

[11822]

As long as their hope is in Jesus and his Law.

Well said, ill go with that.

 

[bugkiller]

No argument here. I only supported 6 of them as doctrine of Christ. But romans 14 shows tolerance to anyone obeying all 10 Cs and a reason to obey.

Now that is a different approach. Paul tolerating commandment keepers instead of teaching them.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Im not quoting the commandment to condemn anyone, we're free indeed. However Christ commands this through the apostles and we cannot use Paul's words in Galatians to throw out Pauls words in 1Th that commands us according to Christ and the will of God.

What do you mean by we're free indeed? I see you trying to force keeping the law point everywhere.

bugkiller

 

[sk8Joyful]

Do you agree that Christians should obey all 613 commandments?

Whatever happened to God's 2 Commandments:
1. LOVE the Lord your GOD with ALL your soul & mind & heart.
&
2. LOVE each other, AS I LOVE you.

 

[bugkiller]

What is meant by annihilate the law?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Lets look at what you're saying scratch.

From what you say Christians shouldn't even get married because its commanded in the OT and if they do they can commit adultery because that too is a law and Scratch says Gal throws out the law. This could be the beginning of a whole new revolution in Christian thinking...

I am curious how scratch said don't get married. I did not read it that way.

bugkiller