Do you agree that christians should keep the 10 Commandments?

[from scratch]

And all who break God's 10 commandments will suffer death. The second and eternal death. You have a problem that, take it up with God.

Who does this exclude? Who observes the 4th as written or is it an amended version which isn't found in Scripture?

 

[from scratch]

Where is circumcision in the ten Commandments? But of course you don't separate the laws. So that Paul does not support circumcision means he can go to church on Sabbaths but mean that circumcision is part of the Sabbath that he kept but we should not. It maybe a little side stepping but you can make it.

The law is a single undivisible unit as shown by James 2:10, 11. Note I didn't use Paul to make the point. Frogster didn't say anything about circumcision being part of the sabbath. He referred to the whole law concept stated in James where Paul uses circumcision in the same manner.

 

[Lionroot]

So what about Jer 31:31-34, Hosea 2:11? Oh maybe you might be referring to Mat 5:17, 18. Then what about this one: And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning Me. LK 24:44. I haven't even got to Jesus' testimony that a different covenant is in force, yet. Neither have I touched Paul's writings either.

What about it?

Jeremiah 31:33 I will put my law within them(the house of Israel and the house of Judah vs.31)...

Pretty cool.

Hosea does mention the law but not in your reference.

Hosea 4:6
6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge; because you have rejected knowledge,

I reject you from being a priest to me.

And since you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children.

God's law is pretty important. Don't forget it.

Matthew 5:17
Christ Came to Fulfill the Law

17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
Matthew 5:18
18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

...and that is what I am saying.

Luke 24:44
44 Then he said to them, "These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled. "

These verses are so in agreement with what I have been writing, I had to reread your post.

Anyway, I enjoyed the review.
God bless...

Psalms 119:160
160 The sum of your word is truth,
and every one of your righteous rules endures forever.

 

[Lionroot]

Gods word will never pass away but it is all in context. We have the OT and we have the NT. We the NT being refrenced in the OT and the OT referenced in the NT..

Are you saying that context alters meaning? I believe that a verse means what it always meant. Do you disagree?

 

[from scratch]

What about it?

Jeremiah 31:33 I will put my law within them(the house of Israel and the house of Judah vs.31)...

One should notice that there is a difference in what v 31, 32 and 33 say. Doesn't 31 say a new covenant? Doesn't 32 clearly identify what it won't be like? Isn't the covenant the 10 Cs? I think Deut 4:13 does an excelent job in identifying that covenant as written in stone. Is there another ocvenant made with Israel? I don't know of one. So I need some kind of proof such as a verse or 2. I just don'tunderstand how law in verse 33 is the same law as the OC or 10 Cs because of the previous 2 verses.

Pretty cool.

Hosea does mention the law but not in your reference.

Simply amazing! In being accused of violating the law murder, adultery, stealing, etc are mentioned to infer the 10 Cs and the sabbath isn't a reference to them. Incredible, I say simply incredible! I thought it was the 4th commandment of the 10 Cs.

Hosea 4:6
6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge; because you have rejected knowledge,

I reject you from being a priest to me.

And since you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children.

God's law is pretty important. Don't forget it.

Matthew 5:17
Christ Came to Fulfill the Law

17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
Matthew 5:18
18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

...and that is what I am saying.

Luke 24:44
44 Then he said to them, "These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled. " Well I notice that a version is quoted that doesen't include the words concerning Me. Very way to deny the truth and make it fit a desired doctrine. Leaveing out those words renders the verse as nothing more than useless words for filler. Besides Jesus covers end time events in Mat 24. This still doesn't refute Romans 10:4 or Hebrews 7:12. Hebrews 7:12 very clearly states a change of the law. Romans 10:4 clearly states the law is a has been. And Paul clearly says to throw it out. Paul in no way promotes sin see the following chapter - 5.

These verses are so in agreement with what I have been writing, I had to reread your post.

Anyway, I enjoyed the review.
God bless...

Psalms 119:160
160 The sum of your word is truth,
and every one of your righteous rules endures forever.

So what does one do with Luke 16:16 and Gal 3:19?

 

[MamaZ]

Are you saying that context alters meaning? I believe that a verse means what it always meant. Do you disagree?

Context is very important. It gives the full meaning to what is being said. Same as reading any letter. If you only read one verse of a letter then you do not get the full meaning of what has been written. Are you saying that you can just pick a verse out of context and use it at your will?

 

[Lionroot]

Is this his word, written after Christ took sin and law to the cross?

15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,

...and what ordnance is he talking about? Look you can't stop at a buzz word there is a whole phrase there "the law of commandments expressed in ordinances" The context is circumcision of the flesh. That is what Paul is writing of here.

If Paul meant way you suggest why would he later invoke the Law of God in 6:2?

Keep it coming. Iron sharpens iron.

 

[from scratch]

Interesting, but you have him asking that money be put aside on the first day of the week once and run with it as the day of worship he supported.
He met with the gentles by themselves on Sabbath too. Acts 16
12And from thence to Philippi, which is the chief city of that part of Macedonia, and a colony: and we were in that city abiding certain days.
13And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.
Acts 13,15 and 16 are repleted with Sabbath meetings by Paul and you are willing to deny that he kept the Sabbath, but one Sunday, not stating that it was in church but asking that money be put aside, does it for you. Amazing, absolutely amazing.

One of the interesting things is that Paul always went to the synagogue first and it is a well known fact that gentiles also attended the synagogue. So the statement really points to the fact that the Jews weren't particulare interested in what Paul had to say. Infact they even tried to kill him on more than one occassion.

Touching on the I Cor 16 issue - does it make sense to come to church to place an offering in the church treasury when one was there the day before? I think that is completely un reasonable. They don't do something that silly at any church I ever went to. My SDA neighbor doesn't do it either. The verse doesn't imply at home. If that is what Paul meant why didn't he say to do it at home. Further evidence is the phrase "that there be no clooection when I come." It can't be that Pauls is stating take up a collection so there won't be one. If it is at there house when Paul comes there must be a collection take up which Paul wants to avoid. Treasury is a commercial opposed to a domestic word.

 

[Frogster]

...and what ordnance is he talking about? Look you can't stop at a buzz word there is a whole phrase there "the law of commandments expressed in ordinances" The context is circumcision of the flesh. That is what Paul is writing of here.

If Paul meant way you suggest why would he later invoke the Law of God in 6:2?

Keep it coming. Iron sharpens iron.

Ummmm..the law was one..CONTEXT..the next verse shows by this abolishment, we were reconciled to God. It was not just some minor ordinances, that had to be gone to reconcile us to God, the chapter opens in 1 and 5, we were DEAD in trespasses, under wrath known violations, so you must go by the context, and the definitions provided by the context, it is ralking much more than ordinances.

Were we dead in ceremonial ordinance trepaspasses?

5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

Reaconciled TO GOD>>by this abolishment. Read 2 Cor 5:19, God was reconciling, not counting trepasses any more, same wordage, more than just some ordinances.

15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.

 

[from scratch]

The passages from Acts 13 and 15 that I previously quote mentioned that Paul met with the gentles on the Sabbath. So Why meet with them on Sabbath if, as you contend, Paul did not want them to keep the Sabbath?

Yes but this was in the synagogue or afterwards in what we'd call an after glow probably held at the same facility. We do note that Paul moved from the syanagogue to a house in one instance after being pushed out of the synagogue.

 

[Frogster]

One of the interesting things is that Paul always went to the synagogue first and it is a well known fact that gentiles also attended the synagogue. So the statement really points to the fact that the Jews weren't particulare interested in what Paul had to say. Infact they even tried to kill him on more than one occassion.

Touching on the I Cor 16 issue - does it make sense to come to church to place an offering in the church treasury when one was there the day before? I think that is completely un reasonable. They don't do something that silly at any church I ever went to. My SDA neighbor doesn't do it either. The verse doesn't imply at home. If that is what Paul meant why didn't he say to do it at home. Further evidence is the phrase "that there be no clooection when I come." It can't be that Pauls is stating take up a collection so there won't be one. If it is at there house when Paul comes there must be a collection take up which Paul wants to avoid. Treasury is a commercial opposed to a domestic word.

Tally-ho!

 

[from scratch]

Now why add to the bible? How does this metaphorical thing mentioned in the Bible? every attempt is made to explain away that which is plainly spoken rather than accept what God has said. Very sad.
You have made it clear that earth will remain. Then will also the ten commandments with the Sabbath. Will that kill you? Will the truth kill you if you accept it? Why work so hard to deny it?

Then explain Luke 24:44 which limits the meaning of Mat 5:17-18.

 

[Lionroot]

Context is very important. It gives the full meaning to what is being said. Same as reading any letter. If you only read one verse of a letter then you do not get the full meaning of what has been written. Are you saying that you can just pick a verse out of context and use it at your will?

No doubt context is important. However meaning is not transitory. That is to say some verse in the old testament means what it meant, even to a NT reader.

I was looking for clarification of your previous posting.

 

[Frogster]

That is absolutely ridiculous, it is in context and I did not present the verse by itself as you do yours.
To do otherwise would not suit you anyway, even if God is glorified.
Reminds me of Jews with Jesus. John 18: 13And led him away to Annas first; for he was father in law to Caiaphas, which was the high priest that same year. 14Now Caiaphas was he, which gave counsel to the Jews, that it was expedient that one man should die for the people.

It was more important to reject and kill Jesus than to accept the truth. Wise men came from the East and knew that Jesus was born but God own people did not notice. Why we as God's people allow satan to blind us so? There will be a point we will reach, Just like the Jews, that if Jesus stands in front of us and speak His word we will reject them. Some of us have gotten there already. The truth as plain as it can be will never be accepted.

You did prooftext, he said died, released from what bound him, then described the dynamics of law life.

What aroused sin?

7:5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.


What did sin use?

7:11 For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed

 

[Frogster]

Paul 's commission was to the gentle. Is that not so? By the way You have any of those sermons of Paul's on tape. I only have the bible and it don't tell me so.

twas for both...


9;15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel.

 

[from scratch]

I have yet for anyone to show me where Paul or Peter or any writings of the scripture in the NT preach to keep the sabbath.

We've been asking for that for the longest time. Only conclusion I can come to is that it simply doesn't exist.

 

[from scratch]

That should tell you something. I think most will miss it.

Hmmm! I thought Moses was nailed to the cross. Talking about the law of Moses that is.

 

[Frogster]

Where is circumcision in the ten Commandments? But of course you don't separate the laws. So that Paul does not support circumcision means he can go to church on Sabbaths but mean that circumcision is part of the Sabbath that he kept but we should not. It maybe a little side stepping but you can make it.

You have been shown, cutting meant conversion, and conversion meant.....


2 Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. 3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law

 

[Rajni]

For all who break God's commandments and teach men so will die the second dead.

But whoever tries to keep the whole law but messes up even a little is guilty of breaking all of it. In other words, unless you’re doing it perfectly, from cradle to coffin, you’re not doing it at all as far as God’s concerned.

Paul would certainly not say opposite to what Jesus said.

It only seems opposite using your interpretation. I see them as being in agreement, based on my previous explanation of Matthew 5:18-19. Jesus and Paul only contradict from the literalistic futurist perspective.

How was that which is Holy, Just, Good and spiritual abolished? Explain.

Ask Paul, he’s the one who said it was abolished.

how can we who are to live by the Spirit not have that which is spiritual, namely the law? Explain.

Because the law was abolished. Ask Paul.

Again, you’re not keeping the law, as much as you preach doing so, because unless you’re keeping it perfectly, you’re not keeping it at all.

 

[Frogster]

It seems to me that you think Frogster is confessing that the law isn't good and holy. I would very much say that isn't his position at all. Neither is it my position.

Amen, the Holy law, shows unholy flesh, as it was intended, they don't read Rom 5;20, it tells us why the law was added, it was to increase sin, not take it away.