Do you agree that christians should keep the 10 Commandments?

[from scratch]

If i Kill, or commit adultery, put another God ahead of Him or used His name in vein would i need to ask God to forgive me? Yes or no answer please. Thank you.

This is a clear argument question to which there is no good answer for me because of my position. If you think my poisition is wrong show that. I won't vaildate the Law for the Christian. I've stated numerous times that doesn't promote sin per Galatians 5. Incidence isn't obedience.

 

[from scratch]

Good answer. How do we put off the flesh and walk in the Spirit?
Isn't living by the 10 cs part of walking in the Spirit as long as its accompanied by Grace and love that does not Judge others by the 10 Cs?

Nope! No more than being led of the Spirit is obedience to the law that we've been delivered from.

 

[11822]

Nope! No more than being led of the Spirit is obedience to the law that we've been delivered from.

Jesus gave a commandment:

12Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. 13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.



And 6 verses later gave us warning:

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

 

[11822]

Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God

Heb 10:38Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded

 

[from scratch]

You have to admit, it is true from scratch that we have been asking for a sound response to this question (which we are weary of asking), and have yet to receive a reasonable response. In all my dealings with anti-Sabbatarians, I have not as of yet found one consistent, reasonable answer to this question.

I've answered with response or discussion to those responses. What i get is more repeated statements with no Scriptural proof.

The crowning evidence reveals that the Greek word for "man" in Mark 2:27 is alluding to Adam and his descendants.

The statement in MK 2:27 makes no such allusion. It wasn't addressed to the world or mankind. It was addressed to the Jews who asked the question. The word man thus acts like a pronoun.

Bob Pickle has categorically proven this in his section: The Sabbath is Jewish (scroll to #190)

Man with a vested interest. He was asked about by me with no response. I personally think from visiting his web site that he is SDA selling primarily to the chior.

And who says we need a statement? Mark 2:27 is already good enough to prove the point! And all one has to do is read the 4th commandment, and it is PLAIN as day that the Sabbath was meant to be kept since creation!

Please provide discussion for such. Yes I can read and have read the 4th commandment in Exodus and Deuteronomy.

Keep in mind that the Jews had forgotten the Sabbath of their forefathers during the 430 years of slavery in Egypt. Compared to how old you are, 430 years is a long time!

How is this possible? According to Deut 5:3 there wasn;t any such agreement or command to their fathers which would includ Abraham. Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi a long time professor at Andrews, author and guest lecturer in the SDA church said that Abraham keeping the sabbath is mere speculation at best.

When God carved the Ten Commandments for the Israelites, he was not defining "new rules" to them, He was actually gently, and gradually trying to bring them BACK into the covenant of Abraham their father!

Deut 5:3 refutes this statement outright.

The ratification of the Old Covenant (which was not called "old" in the Old Testament by the way) was installed not as a system of works, but originally and practically a recapturing of the Covenant made to Abraham. Hence we see why Israel stumbled, because they failed to attain righteousness of the law by faith (faith of Abraham), but rather the works of the law. It was Israel that made the covenant "old", and why it became absolutely necessary for a new one.

I would like very much to be informed what was old if there was to be a new (covenant). Please inform me. I think it is the one (covenant) made with there fathers Jeremiah talks about. What is the NC Jesus talks about in Mat 26:28, MK 14:24 and LK 22:20? I would love some very detailed answers to those Scriptures if you don't mind. While you're at it please include Hosea 2:11 Deut 5:1-5, 12-15. I currently have no detailed discussion from the law camp on those verses. If there is such you can just referme to the post in this forum. I would also like to know why a reference to Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi isn't suffiencient or there is no proof that he has been rejected from the SDA church as a heretic.

The fact alone that the Israelites were commanded to start keeping the Sabbath Holy in Exodus 16 is sufficient proof alone that the Sabbath was not instrinsically tied to the Old Covenant that was abolished, because the Old Covenant was not ratified until Exodus 24:8 by the blood of an Ox, and the Sabbath was binding prior to that! It proves that the Sabbath was instituted for mankind AT CREATION!

Yet the sabbath is in the 10 Cs which is the covenant - Deut 4:13. The sabbath is very much intrinsic to the covenant. It is the sign (signal, distinguishing mark) of the covenant.
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

13Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
14Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
15Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

Who is the you in the above Scripture? The only possibility I see is the nation of Israel. Why is this? If it is for everybody how could it be special sign? Please explain.

The Bible is not compelled, NOR OBLIGATED, to make plain statements, such as "Abraham kept the Sabbath" in order for this to be a naturally inferred REALITY!

I agree and there is nothing to base a valid assumption on that Abraham kept the sabbath or any of the law which came 430 after him and Moses said very plainly wasn't given to him - Deut 5:3. So one must not only deny Gal 3:17 as correct and reject Paul, but also must reject Moses as a reliable source. What is left?

Nowhere does it say "Abraham did not steal", or "Abraham did not bear false witness", or "Abraham did not take God's name in vain". NO!!!

My guess is that Gen esis 12 is missing from your Bible. Abraham lied and was blessed for it. Neither complies with the law.

Genesis 26:5 is clear enough!

"Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws." (Genesis 26:5)

When are you going to come to the realization, from scratch, that you are demanding more than is needed from the Bible to make the simple point clear that the Sabbath was made for mankind, and was instituted as a Memorial for Creation?

Where or where do you get this from? Exodus 20:8-11 and MK 2:27 an out of context proof text?

I say celebrating God's creation on His Sabbath day is FAR more important than celebrating the 4th of July.

I say celebrating the resurrection of my Saviour/Redeemer Jesus Christ has them both beat hands down. Speaking of which did you celebrate this event? I'm not asking about the pagan junk loaded onto the festivities.

But don't worry, you'll be sure to go see the Fireworks this 4th of July!

Yep the local Indian Casino put on a show. Nice diversion from the everyday stuff. In part I owe much of the ability to access such things as this forum to my country. Ain't it wonderful? I think so and worth celebrating.

But God's Sabbath?? The memorial of the creation of the entire GLOBE?? Pssshhaaa...who cares about that.

I was out in God's creation with much glee today. Thanks but I don't worship it. I certianly do admire it and especially in the spring when it see it come back from its winter rest. What a wonder in itself. I have been admiring it for a couple weeks now. Love spring. I am in awe of all that God has done and am reminded of Him and that no one else has been able to duplicate His wonder and splendor.

Do you see just how sadly pathetic evanelicalism begins to sound with their reasoning?

Nope I don't see how pathetic evangelicalism is? BTW isn't what you're engaging in here evangelism? Wouldn't that make evangelicistic?

Oh what is it going to take!!![/quote]Way more than you have provided so far. And probably more than you've got.

 

[from scratch]

You're right, nobody is perfect, and we all come short of the Glory of God, and we desparately need His Grace, as none of us can keep the law perfectly.

However, let us be careful to never use this argument as a license to willfully sin. God will bless us with our efforts. But these efforts must be efforts that are motivated by the strength and power that comes from God's Grace to "go and sin no more" (see 2 Cor 12:9; John 8:11)

There is a vast difference between willful transgression (in other words: "since I can't keep the law perfectly anyway, I'm not even going to put forth the effort!"), vs. our shortcomings from our weaknesses and infirmaties.

With the ladder, the person realizes their helplessness, and their weakness. They see their sins. They ask for forgiveness, and pray for strength. They RECOGNIZE what sin is, and call sin by its right name!

But the willful transgressor is one who says: "There is no law, so I don't have any sin to repent of". This is willful ignorance, and willful violation. This is when God's Grace cannot cover you. It can only cover you once you realize that you are a sinner.

I would like very much for you to name who is promoting such. You can PM with that information to stay out of troubble. I really want to read it my self. Thanks for helping me find anything like that. I sure have missed seeing it here. This is a big place. Thanks in advance. I'm not a mod either.

Sadly, people who do not recognized that all 10 commandments are binding, they do not recognize that breaking them is sin, therefore, Grace cannot cover those who reject God's 10 Commandments as binding.

Who are the 10 Cs binding on? Please indicate with Scripture.

 

[from scratch]

Jesus gave a commandment:

12Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. 13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.



And 6 verses later gave us warning:

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

So am I missing something here? I'm wondering why for this is the law and the prophets wasn't emphasized?

So what is the will of the Father?

 

[from scratch]

Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God

Heb 10:38Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded

Within the context of the conversation I've no clue what the point of the above quotes is. So please help me out here.

 

[11822]

So am I missing something here? I'm wondering why for this is the law and the prophets wasn't emphasized?

So what is the will of the Father?

Jesus says to love God with all our heart, love neighbor and enemy, He says to humble ourselves and be as children. And treat others the way we want to be treated. We are to forgive and turn the other cheek. After all that i think i would already be obeying at least 9 of the 10 Cs anyway.

 

[11822]

Within the context of the conversation I've no clue what the point of the above quotes is. So please help me out here.

Grace is the point brother. Grace through faith in Jesus Christ is our salvation. Our sins are forgiven because of Gods loving grace found in His Son Jesus Christ. I loved this one:

Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul

 

[Elder 111]

But that would be a false dichotomy since one can not love God and his/her neighbor and killed him/her, or commit adultery, or put other God's before Him. The whole of the text of ten commandments (except for the fourth) are within the NT but within grace.

Why leave out the fourth when God placed it there?

 

[Elder 111]

I don't buy that the confusion line at all.

Surely if you have read this thread at all you'll see a difference in the covenants. The Christian isn't obligated to a superceded covenant. So either there is a misunderstanding of covenants or you're a law pusher. I take there is a problem with Paul.

Why was the covenant superseded, because the law needed to be removed?
Because Jesus died? Because the gentles were included? Why?

 

[Elder 111]

What did Jesus say in John 15:10? Which commandments are we supposed to obey? Which ones did Jesus obey?

Let's see, He love His father, He did not steal, lie, covet. He did not even have sex so He could not commit adultery. Ya know, yep He kept all 10 commandments for He kept the Sabbath too.
But we do not have to do like Him or do we?

 

[Elder 111]

Nope the NT nor Jesus teaches that we're obligated to the law.

Where did the scribes and Pharisees get their righteousness from? Didn't Jesus say one can't secure eternal life the same way? How does one get the righteousness required?

The 10 commandments was not the problem. If not God is the problem for He gave them.

 

[Elder 111]

Why would we have to be obligated to the law when Christ fulfilled the law? Fulfilled means that it was completed.

Completely obeyed not completely removed.

 

[Elder 111]

He completed the law. Now we have our being not in the law but in Christ and Christ in us.

Christ who completely obeyed the law is now living in us, would He now continue to obeyed the same law in us?

 

[Elder 111]

Verse 3 - Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? This makes it very clear that salvation isn't maintained by the law.

The burden is yours to provide proof that either commanded the keeping of the 10 Cs. I can find no proof of such. I've already established that Jesus don't void the law with Jer 31:31-34. God the Father did. Jesus verified that the NC is the current covenant in Mat 28:28, MK 14:24 and LK 22:20.

It is a complete violation of Jer. 31:31-34 to say that God voided the law. How can writing it on our hearts be voiding the law. It I move the car from the garage to the road, that means there is no more car? Am I missing something here?

 

[Deut 5:29]

It is a complete violation of Jer. 31:31-34 to say that God voided the law. How can writing it on our hearts be voiding the law. It I move the car from the garage to the road, that means there is no more car? Am I missing something here?

Yea, your missing the wonderful world of "Scratch reasoning".

 

[MamaZ]

Completely obeyed not completely removed.

Who said it was removed? We are under no obligation to the law. For now His witness is not carved in stone. I have never been an Isrealite. The law was a covenant between not all men and God but the Isrealites and God. We now have a new covenant. His Blood. We are to walk by the Spirit which indwells His people.

 

[MamaZ]

Good answer. How do we put off the flesh and walk in the Spirit?
Isn't living by the 10 cs part of walking in the Spirit as long as its accompanied by Grace and love that does not Judge others by the 10 Cs?

Well living by the 10 is not our obligation. Because the law was completed. To put off the flesh we read in Scripture what the fruit of the flesh is and we also read in scripture what the fruit of the Spirit is. This is why we are to continually be filled with the Spirit. Feeding on the written word of God. Not only being hearers of the word but also doers. It is no longer you shall not but this is what you shall do.