Do you agree that christians should keep the 10 Commandments? (4)

Arthur57 · May 31, 2011

sheina said:
When the Lord Jesus Christ died on the cross He cried out, "It is finished" (John 19:30). The work of our salvation was FINISHED, DONE, ACCOMPLISHED and COMPLETED. We simply need to trust and rest in what the Saviour has accomplished.

What he has finished is his mission on earth, to redeem man, But what is unfinished, is saving man from their sin, this he carried out from his ministry in the sanctuary in heaven (Hebrews 8:1-5). Again you are wrong.

I think I have encountered many errors in your view, doesn't this bother you and start to question your self whether your believe is right?

sheina said:
Your second statement is false...God is able to save to the uttermost. (Hebrews 7:25)

Am I? What Hebrews 7:25 says does not includes those who expressly transgress his law, those who will not let go their cherish sins, etc. But how sinful your sin is, if you truly repent Christ is able to save you to the uttermost, forgiving your sins.

sheina said:
In addition, salvation does not eradicate our sin nature (Romans 7; Galatians 5:17; etc.)

. Only when you got your new body at Christ 2nd coming.

sheina said:
However, Scripture does tell us that we can have victory over the power of sin (Romans 6-8; Galatians 5) If we sin He still remains our Father and Christ remains our Advocate (1John 2:1). Why? It is because He paid the full price demanded by God's law for sin (1John 2:2), and eternal life is a free gift, totally undeserved and unmerited by man, received by simple faith in Christ alone, and secure upon receipt.

.

So, do you mean with this, that you be saved in your sin? You be taken to heaven in your sin? Confirm it.

But consider this:
The LORD, the LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth,7 keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the childrens children to the third and the fourth generation. Exodus 34:6,7.

sheina said:
Exodus 32:3 has nothing to do with man sinning and dying...it speaks of the fashioning of the golden calf. Try and get your Scriptures correct, please.

33 And the LORD said to Moses, Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book. I mean Exodus 32:33. My keyboard always fails if entering the same number twice.

sheina said:
Wrong! Jesus Christ came to save sinners (Luke 5:32; Romans 5:8). All have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). If you aren't IN your sins, you are NOT a sinner...and that goes contrary to what Scripture says.

So, you confirm that you are saved in your sin, that you are taken to heaven in your sin? That is what you are promoting, right?

Consider this: 21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins. Matthew 1:21.

from scratch · May 31, 2011

Arthur57 said:
Wrong. Misunderstood my view. How could you come to that conclusion??

What is it about your view that you think I misunderstand?

The righteousness Jesus rebuke in Mathhew 5:20, is self righteousness. You can not generalized with righteousness by faith, which gives life.

What other kind of righteousness can one get from the law? What kind of righteousness comes by obedience to anything?

He is accepted as he was righteous, despite he has none of righteousness whatsoever. Accepting as he is righteous is not the same as he is righteous. The later declared his own righteousness, as the first is relying on another person righteousness, even the righteousness of Christ.

All I care about is being treated as though I'm righteous. That is what happens when God looks at me through Jesus.

Your view of the point of righteousness achieved by a believer is different than mine. Your view is a believer achieved righteousness at his initial justification by faith, which in fact he is not righteous at all, for he is a sinner justified by faith, having none of righteousness whatsoever. Therefore the law still aplied to them. My view is a believer achieved his righteousness when he has completely changed to the image and likeness of God. Therefore, Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to those who believe is correct. For believers must walk in the law till they identify themselves with Christ perfect righteousness. Of course this is what is meant by walking after the Spirit.

Nope I never said a believer achieved anything. I did say that the only righteousness that counts in the imputed righteousness done by God through Jesus who purchased me from the market place with His own blood - Eph 1:14. And yes this happens at initial justification. BTW that is the only justification that exists for the believer. One is justified or not justified. There is no sorta being pregnant.

The law will always have its jurisdiction over men, even Christians.

Then a Christian isn't righteous and I Tim 1:9-10 is meaningless hogwash.

Justification, salvation, grace is the promise to us through the faith of Abraham. But that doesn't release men from their obligation to keep and obey the law.

Yes it does. That doesn't mean that sin is now legal or that no such as sin still exists. Sin was before the law. Adn after reading Ga;3:19 I think I can say that sin exists after the law.

Right, for as a sinner, you are under condemnation of the law, you are in the jail of condemnation, guarded by the law.

A christian isn't classified as a sinner.

And what is the tutor function for a sinner? Condemning them which points them out Christ for salvation. When faith came, you are justified, you are no longer under the guard of the law, for you have been released from the condemnation as your sins is forgiven. The law is still there, as a path of righteousness where believers must walk, but they walk in freedom. Outside the law, they fall again under condemnation, they fall again under the guard or tutor of the law, and the process is repeated.

Why should I care what the function of the tutor is for a sinner? I'm a redeemed Christian. Faith has come and I'm no longer under a tutor/guard of the law. You said above tha I'm released from condemnation of the law. This means it is no longer effective. Again the law still exist but has no effective power to enforce anything against me. Your statement would mean that if I sin I would lose my salvation and have then be reborn again. No sale. That isn't the meaning of I Jn 1:9-2:1.

Never assumed something else if it is not written, and read the whole context, and compare it with other verses of the Scripture.

Romans 4:1-9 is telling Christ imputed righteousness through faith in Him, and not through works of the law. It gives no indication that the law ends, nullify or lost its jurisdiction after justification.

But imputed righteousness is completely outside the law as clearly shown in the text.

The same with 1 Tim. 1:9.10. The law is not made for the righteous, doesn't mean righteous believers are not under jurisdiction of the law. Can you comprehend this?

To whom does the passage imply are under the jurisdiction of the law? It isn't the righteous. The righteous is the Christian. If that isn't so then there is no difference between the Christian and the wicked. Christian don't do the things listed in that passage or Gal 5:19-21. Thus the law doesn't apply to the Christian. and the law is being used unlawfully.

When is the law made? Since Adam was created in Eden, he was righteous, but he too was subject to the law of God. When he sinned, he was expelled and died. later on the law was made legal at Mt. Sinai, it was added because of transgression, because of sinners. And the whole world come under condemnation, for all men had sinned and for short of the glory of God (Romans 3:19,20,23). When sinners is justified by faith, he was released from the law's condemnation but not from the law's jurisdiction. On the contrary, he must live according to the demands of the law, otherwise, he comes again under condemnation. God standard of righteousness never change for men, whether you are a righteous believer or a sinner. If the law is not for the righteous the way you think, then the law is not for Jesus too.

If the law existed in the garden it certianly couldn't be added. There is no indication of ceremonial aspects in Gal 3 or in verse 19 of said chapter. The phrase the law refers to that which was issued at Sinai and not the total law of God as you would like to claim. By your claim God had no legal right to cast Adam from the garden. After all the law only became legal at Mt Sinai. If one isn't released from the law it can and still condemns them for violation. No God's righteousness can never be changed, but the standard for man can be and was on acceptance by a human. Yes one can reject that change if they wish. It seems that you have no comprehension about Jesus or the work He did for all mankind.

There are many things must be fulfilled while Jesus was on earth, and there are things he must fulfilled while he is in heaven, ministering in the sanctuary in heaven to accomplish the NC through His Spirit in believers hearts and mind, and mediating for their sins.

Like what? Some SDA doctrine. What Jesus did was completed before the end of the day of His resurrectuion. The high preist doesn't stay in the holy of Holies perpetually and neither does Jesus my High Priest.

So, when he said, until all is fulfilled the law remains in its jurisdiction, he said the truth. For at the cross, part of his mission in saving man is completed.[/quote]

from scratch · May 31, 2011

visionary said:
Then who are the workers of iniquity.. whom our Lord will declare.. I never knew you??

A sin isn't a life style. Living in sin is. There is a big difference.

Arthur57 · May 31, 2011

from scratch said:
Do I read that indeed there are 2 different covenants in this statement above?

<edit>

"when I will make a new covenant", this is the NC.
" not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that" , this is the OC.

from scratch said:
To say that the law (OC) is placed in the heart of those that believe isn't what is promoted by the law crowd anywhere that I have ever read.
The point is made very loudly that the NC is only established with the houses of Israel and Judah and not any Gentiles. This means that a Gentlie converts to the law Moses as required to participate in their (the Israelites) covenant. Thus we have the replacement theology which used to be called British Israelism. This movement idea promotes that the law written on the heart is the same law issued at Sinai. That is clearly proven to be error with verses 31 and 32.

Who is the "house of Israel" according to you?

<edit>

What is written in the heart of people of "those day" is the law of God that reveal sin, the law that is the transcription of His character, the law that contains his principle of agape love, the Ten Commandments.

Gentiles believer are subject to the law of God after that time, after the cross, no longer 613 laws, but only the ten.

from scratch said:
Yes, but what are you calling God's law? I think that you intend it to mean nothing less than the covenant made with the COI at Sinai, specifically the 10 Cs. The 10 Cs are called the covenant written on or in stone in Deut 4:13. Thus the covenant made with their fathers can't be something else.

What is meant by the OC, is a covenant based on Israel promise to keep God's law. The law is what is written in stone tablets and put in the ark, and the other law of the Torah, a complete 613 mitzvah.

What is meant by the NC, is a covenant based on God's promise, to enable Christ believers to keep and obey the law and fulfill it demands. The law no longer 613 mitzvah, but only the Ten Cs.

from scratch said:
There are no I repeat no doers according to the Bible and thus there is no hope of salvation by the observance of the law even if it is written on one's heart. The challenge still remains open for any one to name a doer of the law in the past 6,000 years. So far there hasn't been anyone found except Jesus who didn't have a sin nature and didn't prove a motral man could copy His example.

You keep saying there is no doers of the law, better you support it with Scripture, so I can show you your error.

<edit>
You said Jesus has not a sin nature?

Here what the Scripture said, explanation later.

God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, Romans 8:3.
For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Hebrews 4:15.
Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. Hebrews 2:17.
But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born[a] of a woman, born under the law, Gal. 4:4.

visionary · May 31, 2011

from scratch said:
A sin isn't a life style. Living in sin is. There is a big difference.

Living a lifestyle that is declared by God a sin.. is sinful living

sheina · May 31, 2011

Arthur57 said:
What he has finished is his mission on earth, to redeem man, But what is unfinished, is saving man from their sin, this he carried out from his ministry in the sanctuary in heaven (Hebrews 8:1-5). Again you are wrong.

I think I have encountered many errors in your view, doesn't this bother you and start to question your self whether your believe is right?

You can (and do) believe what you wish. It bothers me that you have made and continually make personal attacks and ad hominem statements. You never address the topic, but the person. Last word here....you are not always correct and I am not always wrong. There is only ONE correct answer...and that correct answer is "What saith the Lord"...not what does Arthur57or anyone else says. What I am posting is Scripture...so please cease and desist from the personal ad hominem attacks.

Am I? What Hebrews 7:25 says does not includes those who expressly transgress his law, those who will not let go their cherish sins, etc. But how sinful your sin is, if you truly repent Christ is able to save you to the uttermost, forgiving your sins.

. Only when you got your new body at Christ 2nd coming.

.

So, do you mean with this, that you be saved in your sin? You be taken to heaven in your sin? Confirm it.

Scripture confirms that we will all be changed:

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1 Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1 Corinthians 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

So, you confirm that you are saved in your sin, that you are taken to heaven in your sin? That is what you are promoting, right?

Jesus Christ DIED for my sin...and the SIN of the world. I am taken to heaven in a CHANGED incorruptible body...as all born again Christians will be when Jesus comes "in the clouds" and "catches His people/the saints away" (1 Thess. 4:13-18). That is called "the redemption of the body"

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Arthur57 · May 31, 2011

Studious One said:
The child of God who falls into sin does not and will never be in condemnation of the Law!

When Christ forgave my sins on the cross, He forgave past, present, and future sins. I will not be held accountable for sins in my body for Christ became sin for me that I might be made righteous in Him

A cherish sin and an expressly sin doesn't counted. You can not generalize sin.

But the point is not about sin and being forgiven, but about are you saved in sin or are you saved from sin, means you become a perfect righteous and sinless believer at the end of your Christian life?

jpcedotal · May 31, 2011

I know every once in awhile, we need to stop and tell each other we love them and that we respect each others translations even if we do not agree with them.

11822 · May 31, 2011

sheina said:
You can (and do) believe what you wish. It bothers me that you have continually make personal attacks and ad hominem statements. You never address the topic, but the person. Last word here....you are not always correct and I am not always wrong. There is only ONE correct answer...and that correct answer is "What saith the Lord"...not what does Arthur57or anyone else says. What I am posting is Scripture...so please cease and desist from the personal ad hominem attacks.

We're all posting scripture and all guilty of attacking one another. If love in the Holy Spirit is your message then let it be so. However doesn't paul show more tolerance to obeying meaningless food laws than some here do with more serious laws? Did paul say those who were obeying these food laws were justifying themselves by the law? No he said love that brother with the weaker conscience and don't judge Him and don't eat that food for His sake. We're talking about abstaining from fornication and works of the flesh which is Gods will. If Paul tolerates people obeying food laws how much more would he tolerate them for obeying Gods will in abstaining from works of the flesh?

Studious One · May 31, 2011

visionary said:
Then who are the workers of iniquity.. whom our Lord will declare.. I never knew you??

the latter part of your post, after the '..' answer your own question. It is people who never came to Christ and therefore, He never knew them.

Studious One · May 31, 2011

from scratch said:
Beseeching isn't a command as presented in prior posts.

You are correct, fs. Beseech means to implore or to beg... not command.

11822 · May 31, 2011

jpcedotal said:
I know every once in awhile, we need to stop and tell each other we love them and that we respect each others translations even if we do not agree with them.

Amen, sounds like what we all need to hear. Thank you for posting it.

Studious One · May 31, 2011

Arthur57 said:
A cherish sin and an expressly sin doesn't counted. You can not generalize sin.

But the point is not about sin and being forgiven, but about are you saved in sin or are you saved from sin, means you become a perfect righteous and sinless believer at the end of your Christian life?

1 John 2:2 answers your question. If we sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous.

I was not saved from sin, 1 John 2 clearly reveals that. If one is saved from sin then 1 John 2:2 makes no sense whatsoever.

What I was saved from is the penalty for sin.

11822 · May 31, 2011

Studious One said:
You are correct, fs. Beseech means to implore or to beg... not command.

Scratch misunderstands what i posted. You agree with His mistake and im left looking like a fool who thinks beseech means commandment. Didn't you see my response post right below his?

Arthur57 · May 31, 2011

sheina said:
You can (and do) believe what you wish. It bothers me that you have made and continually make personal attacks and ad hominem statements. You never address the topic, but the person. Last word here....you are not always correct and I am not always wrong. There is only ONE correct answer...and that correct answer is "What saith the Lord"...not what does Arthur57or anyone else says. What I am posting is Scripture...so please cease and desist from the personal ad hominem attacks.

Forgive me if you feel insulted, for I don't think to insult you, only opens the fact. But you are right and that is my motto, "what is written", or "what saith the Lord." Even there are always two ways of interpreting, which needs verification and cross check with other text.

sheina said:
Scripture confirms that we will all be changed:

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1 Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1 Corinthians 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

Jesus Christ DIED for my sin...and the SIN of the world. I am taken to heaven in a CHANGED incorruptible body...as all born again Christians will be when Jesus comes "in the clouds" and "catches His people/the saints away" (1 Thess. 4:13-18). That is called "the redemption of the body"

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

I'm sorry, but you didn't answer my question.

The changing of our mortal body to the immortal holy body only happen to those who are qualified for heaven, those who are righteous in and out, who can present their own righteousness before God and the judgment, for there is no way for sin, sinners, imperfect character, unjust and who is not holy, to enter the gate of heaven (Revelation 22:11). you cannot and must not ignore this.

So, how is it that those who rely solely on Christ imputed righteousness may categorized in the truly righteous holy people, when in fact their righteousness is a credit fro Christ for they themselves having none of any righteousness what soever? They were just seen and accepted as they were righteous.

from scratch · May 31, 2011

Arthur57 said:
John 5:24.
24 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life

Does John means literally "hears my words" only? No.
He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked. 1 John 2:6.

So does this allow for cutlural changes? I don't think so. Some quesions I have concerning this application are:

have you fasted for 40 days
were you baptised naked in a river
did Jesus take a pledge to a religious leader and organization
have you ever revomed your clothes and washed the disciples feet
do you stand by the collection plate watching who puts in what amount
have you walked on water
or fed 5,000 from a single sized meal
do you keep the biblical Passover
what about the rest of the feasts required to be held in Jerusalem at the Temple or Tabernacle
do you tithe - is it money or agricultral products - Jesus didn't tithe as He wasn't a a farmer or rancher - tithing money is disobedience to the law

What is to walk as He walked? Keeping His commandments, as He had kept the commandments.

No one does this obviously as proven by history even as late as today. You might say oh yeah I've committed no foul today. Only a proud hypocrite wuold say such a thng and proves one is justified by the law for righteousness and not Jesus by imputation without regard to one actions called grace - unmerrited favor.

And Paul amen this: Not the hearers of the law is justified but the doers of the law will be justified - Romans 2:13.

What can I say? doers of the law are justified by doing or performance and not the sacrifice of Jesus. Tounge in check of course because that isn't what Paul was saying at all, unless you divorce it from the narrative it was taken from. You blew your cover, man. There is no disquise.

So, those who passed from death to life and comes not into judgment are those who walk as He walked, who are the doers of the law.

There is something abpout adding to God's word in both the law (Deuteronomy) and Revelation if I recall correctly.

And are those who said they are Christians are really law doers? many aren't. Especially those who reject the law.

Nope they aren't doers of the law, know and proudly claim it. The sad thing is neither are those that claim to be doers of the aren't either and the Bible says so. I don't have to condemn anyone, the law does a great job all by itself.

As according to Romans 8:1-4, who isn't condemned? It is he who walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh. And what is a walk after the Spirit? A life subject to the law of God, to fulfill its righteous demands through obedience, and not through magic, as many believe here.

I guess it is any thing one wishes. It seems tha t Gal 5 is refused and dismissed in favor of the law - self righteousness. Pride goeth before a fall and is sad very sad in this case.

But, from your posting, I got the impression, that as long he is a Christian, no matter what he did and believe, he is not under the law, he is not under condemnation, he shall not come into judgment. I like this, very nice and easy life, we can continue with our glass of beers, smoking, partying, clubbing, wine time, etc, maybe fornication and adultery includes. Anyway I am a christian, right?

Hey my neighbor subscribes to the same stuff and drinks beer (non acholaic of course but testimony is the same while he is legal).

sheina · May 31, 2011

Arthur57 said:
A cherish sin and an expressly sin doesn't counted. You can not generalize sin.

But the point is not about sin and being forgiven, but about are you saved in sin or are you saved from sin, means you become a perfect righteous and sinless believer at the end of your Christian life?

The soul gains victory over sin's power in the flesh via the Cross

Galatians 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

The old nature was crucified with Christ at the time of regeneration:

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

A Christian must accept this (that our old nature is crucified with Christ) by faith and count his soul dead to sin and alive to God:

Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

The Christian then "reckons" himself seated in "heavenly places" in Christ Jesus:

Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

And therefore sets his affections there (in heavenly places):

Colossians 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Colossians 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

Colossians 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

visionary · May 31, 2011

When does God wink?

Studious One · May 31, 2011

11822 said:
Scratch misunderstands what i posted. You agree with His mistake and im left looking like a fool who thinks beseech means commandment. Didn't you see my response post right below his?

I did not see your reply to scratch until after I had quoted and replied to scratch's statement.

I don't generally start and the end of a thread and answer posts working backward. I start at the beginning and answer as I come to them.

11822 · May 31, 2011

Studious One said:
I did not see your reply to scratch until after I had quoted and replied to scratch's statement.

I don't generally start and the end of a thread and answer posts working backward. I start at the beginning and answer as I come to them.

Scratch truly did misunderstand my post. Maybe we all misunderstand each other somewhat.

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