Do you agree that christians should keep the 10 Commandments? (2)

Lysimachus said:

The Law brings condemnation and death, why? Because we are sinners. The Law only has power to condemn the sinner. It is like the mirror where you see your blemishes and sins. When you look in the mirror (the law), what do you see? You see your sins. You see that you are a miserable wretch, and you see that you are filthy. You see that you are full of stains, and need washing. Therefore, it is then that you see your need of a Saviour. But not until you see that you are a sinner will you realize that you need a Saviour to save you from your sins.

So then you turn to Christ, ask for forgiveness and be repentant. It is the law that brings us to our knees to Christ, because it is only through the Law that we see that we are sinners, for "sin is the transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4). That's what sin is! "(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." (Romans 5:13) And, "by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Romans 3:20)

The Law brings condemnation and death to the sinner who does not see His need of a Saviour, and does not see that he is a sinner. If you do not recognize the Holiness of the law of God, you don't see your sin. And therefore, you don't see your need of a Saviour. The law condemns such an individual.

The Law leads one to Christ only when he recognizes his sinful nature and sees that he is in a need of a cleansing Saviour to wash away his sins. When we come to Christ, He DELIVERS us from the condemning power of the law by bestowing His grace which is sufficient for us to overcome sin. Hence Jesus says "Go and sin no more" (John 8:11). And what is sin? The transgression of the law! Obeying the law does not bring death when it is done in Christ. The law only brings death when it is being willfully violated. People who violate the law are "under the law", "under the penalty of death for transgressing it". Under it's condemning, scrutinizing power. Only those who are under God's Grace are delivered from its condemning power, but this only comes by repentance. Repentance for what? For breaking the law! (aka, sinning). But repentance does not mean "that right after, we have license to go willfully sin (aka, break the law)". No no NO! God now expects you to "GO and sin no more", and this is where the process of "sanctification" comes in. Sanctification is the next process after Justification (declared righteous from past deeds). Now sanctification comes in by the continuing process of overcoming FUTURE and ONCOMING sinful desires!

Hebrews 12:14 says... "Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord."


P.S. [EDIT] And just so you know, even those who are non-Sabbatarians and argue against it constantly, will agree that it is the Law that leads you to Christ, because it reveals your need of a Saviour. This is orthodox Christian theology, and well-researched at that. They just argue and say we're dealing with new law now.

Click to expand...

Actually if we read the accounts in scripture the law had nothing to with drawing men to Christ. It is the Father that draws us to Him. I knew I was a sinner without even looking at the law. We see those that held on to the law had a very hard time even accepting Christ.

Lysimachus said:

What an utter load of "HOO CHA CHA!" Nothing but BIRD CHIRPING GIBBERISH. WOW!

So, Jesus completed not killing, so we can kill now?

So, Jesus didn't commit adultery, and completed it, so we can go commit adultery now?

So, Jesus honored His parents, so we can go dishonor our parents now?

So, Jesus didn't worship idols, and completed it, so now we can go worship idols now?

So, Jesus never told a lie, and bore no false witness, so we can go lie now?

So, Jesus never stole, and "finished" it, so we can go steal now?

Why don't you just admit that your real issue is with the 4th commandment?

And you have judged me in this because?

If it wasn't for that pesky 4th commandment, with all due respect, I don't believe you would be saying this hoo cha cha nonsense. I don't say this to be derogatory, or condescending, but seriously, these kinds of statements do spark reactions in me when they appear so far from the realm of logic and reason!

I feel this statement reveals great ignorance concerning what really happened at the cross.

Click to expand...

So then you don't believe that Jesus fulfilled the law?
As Jesus stated He did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. Now we have our being not in the law but In His Spirit. Put off the deeds of the flesh and walk in the Spirit. This was discussed earlier in the thread. As far as the 4th I do not believe in the sabbath as some do but I can tell you Sunday is my rest day.

Law teaches us we cannot ever be good enough, which leads us to Christ

tall73 said:

Anyone with internet access can go to BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 100 versions and 50 languages. for instance and access several online versions. It would appear you have such access or you would not be posting here.

Or you can download E-sword, a desktop program.
e-Sword - the Sword of the LORD with an electronic edge

Click to expand...

Thank you Tall. I had E-sword on my computer but it is not working so I am using my daughters. I did find the biblegateway site when I googled it. Thank you for the links though

Isolation said:

do you beleive in incremental sanctification?

Click to expand...

Can you explain what incremental sanctification is for me please?

MamaZ said:

Can you explain what incremental sanctification is for me please?

Click to expand...

it means that you become more christ like over time, instead of right away. I believe in right away, not over time.

MamaZ said:

Actually if we read the accounts in scripture the law had nothing to with drawing men to Christ. It is the Father that draws us to Him. I knew I was a sinner without even looking at the law. We see those that held on to the law had a very hard time even accepting Christ.

Click to expand...

I just wish you would quit arguing, and accept what we have to tell you for a change.

"Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster." (Gal 3:24,25)

"Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13)

Once again, recognizing that you are a sinner is what helps you to realize your need of a Cleansing Saviour.

You seem to be trying to destroy God's law, something He has no tolerance for.

Ga 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

MamaZ said:

So then you don't believe that Jesus fulfilled the law?
As Jesus stated He did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. Now we have our being not in the law but In His Spirit. Put off the deeds of the flesh and walk in the Spirit. This was discussed earlier in the thread. As far as the 4th I do not believe in the sabbath as some do but I can tell you Sunday is my rest day.

Click to expand...

I believe Jesus has fulfilled the law. But I do not believe fulfilling means "do away with". It means that Christ has lived up to its FULLEST as an EXAMPLE of what we are to LIVE AFTER! We are now to WALK AS HE WALKED, and FOLLOW in His steps! (see 1 John 2:6; 1 Peter 2:21)

Notice:


The Greek word for fulfill is "pleroo" has the following definition:


But does this Greek word "pleroo" mean "ended" in the sense that Christ's fulfillment means we no longer have to keep them?

Not in the least! If it did, notice the following problems that arise:

Some argue that by fulfilling the Law, Jesus essentially did away with, or finished, the Law. This reasoning is complete nonsense. For if fulfill meant “do away with,” “finish,” or “end,” in Matthew 5:17, while destroy means “do away with,” “finish,” or “end,” this verse would read like this:

“Do not think that I came to [do away with] the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to [do away with].”

Of course “fulfill” can, in the correct context, mean “end,” but that is not the case here. “Fulfill” in Matthew 5:17 does not mean Christ brought an end to the Law; He did not “do away with” the Law! Jesus fulfilled the Law by perfectly obeying the Law; He magnified the Law! “The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.” ( Isaiah 42:21)

Note a few other passages where “fulfil” (Pleroo) is used:

“And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled [ended].”(2 Corinthians 10:6)

“Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil [end] the word of God;” (Colossians 1:25)

“Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil [end] all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:” (2 Thessalonians 1:11)

“And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil [end] all righteousness.”(Matthew 3:15)

See how ridiculous these verses sound when you interpret "fulfill" to mean "completed" or "finished" in the sense that we no longer have to keep them?

It is also worthy of mention that the antecedent to the word "fulfilled" (accomplished) in Matthew 5:18 is "TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS". Obviously, heaven and earth have not passed, nor shall they ever. For this, we can be SURE that the word "fulfill" CANNOT, AND DOES NOT mean what you are digesting it to mean.

Obviously, “fulfill” does not mean “end” in the above passages either, and it only goes to show that the surrounding language must be taken into consideration when determining the correct usage of a word. Therefore, when Christ fulfilled the Law He proved that not only are we to obey the Law, but that through Him, we are able to obey. While it is impossible for man to obey God’s laws by his own will, we must remember that “with God all things are possible” (Matthew 19:26). The remaining verses of Matthew 5 testify to the fact that Jesus did not come to destroy the law, but to “magnify the law, and make it honourable”!

Wesley said: “Verse 48 [Matthew 5:48]. Therefore ye shall be perfect; as your Father who is in heaven is perfect - So the original runs, referring to all that holiness which is described in the foregoing verses, which our Lord in the beginning of the chapter recommends as happiness, and in the close of it as perfection. And how wise and gracious is this, to sum up, and, as it were, seal all his commandments with a promise! Even the proper promise of the Gospel! That he will put those laws in our minds, and write them in our hearts! He well knew how ready our unbelief would be to cry out, this is impossible! And therefore stakes upon it all the power, truth, and faithfulness of him to whom all things are possible.”

Furthermore, if Jesus truly did come to do away with the Law, then why did He take the time to teach them? Why did He say that those who do and teach the Commandments “shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5:19)? Why would God bring His Law to an end when Christ perfectly kept the Law and told us “to walk even as He walked” (1 John 2:6)? Why would the Sabbath no longer be relevant when Christ Himself said He is Lord of the Sabbath and the Sabbath was made for man (Mark 2:27,28 )? If His sacrifice had in fact abolished the Sabbath, why did Jesus tell His disciples to pray that they might keep the Sabbath even many years after His crucifixion (Matthew 24:20)? And why would the very Law which tells us what sin is be brought to an end (1 John 3:4, Romans 4:15, Romans 7:7)?

Isolation said:

it means that you become more christ like over time, instead of right away. I believe in right away, not over time.

Click to expand...

I believe in right away also but I also believe that it is God who conforms us by the power of His Spirit. I also believe that over time we grow in our faith.

I think it depends (or maybe I'm thinking the growth thing like MZ... it's hard to differentiate since I'm not even close to "new" anymore)

MamaZ said:

I believe in right away also but I also believe that it is God who conforms us by the power of His Spirit. I also believe that over time we grow in our faith.

Click to expand...

I agree, its it takes time to Grow.

11822 said:

Ga 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Click to expand...

I do believe that the law was our schoolmaster. But

23 Before the coming of this faith,[f] we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

Lysimachus said:

I just wish you would quit arguing, and accept what we have to tell you for a change.

"Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster." (Gal 3:24,25)

"Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13)

Once again, recognizing that you are a sinner is what helps you to realize your need of a Cleansing Saviour.

You seem to be trying to destroy God's law, something He has no tolerance for.

Click to expand...

I don't understand what you mean by I am trying to destroy Gods law. For Gods Law is His covenant to Isreal. Now Isreal has to come through Christ and Faith and not the law.

MamaZ said:

I do believe that the law was our schoolmaster. But

23 Before the coming of this faith,[f] we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

Click to expand...

After faith has come we dont need the School master, but those without faith in Christ and the law in their hearts still need the School master. I learned murder is wrong by the law, but now that i obey the law of faith do i forget what i learned from Gods commandments?



Ro 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17



Ps 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Ps 37:31 The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide.

Luke 10:26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? 27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. 28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

I would say you haven't forgotten what you learned, but it's not in your nature (when in that good place) to do those things, not because you know not to, but because it's just not there. I think really everyone is "right" but they're just not communicating well.

IreneAdler said:

I would say you haven't forgotten what you learned, but it's not in your nature (when in that good place) to do those things, not because you know not to, but because it's just not there. I think really everyone is "right" but they're just not communicating well.

Click to expand...

so are we under the law? yes, but not as edict but by our nature as creatures of God who are in love/obsession with him