Do "works of righteousness" declare the Atonement to be incomplete?

[LittleLambofJesus]

I believe that after we are saved by God's grace through believing in Jesus as our Savior, works of faith are also needed and they justify (see James 2:24). This would not be the works of the Law of Moses (but the works of faith). Paul is condemning the works of the Law of Moses and not the works of faith. James is showing us the necessity of the works of faith and he is not referring to the works of the Law of Moses. If you need context, I am more than happy to provide it. If you need a boat load of verses, i can do that, too.

I recommend a good study of the Covenantly parable in Luke 16 [goes together with Revelation and the Great City like white on rice......

Full Preterist Safe House


https://www.christianforums.com/thr...rus-most-misunderstood-parable-in-nt.8023004/
Rich Man and Lazarus most misunderstood parable in NT?

[I like the one at the link below, because it gave me a chance to post one of my favorite "Covenantle" cartoons ]

Luke 3:8 [Matthew 3:9]
“Therefore bear fruits in keeping with repentance, and do not begin to say [fn]to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father,' for I am saying to ye, that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham.

Luke 16:29
"Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets;
let them hear them.' "

John 5:45
"Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you — Moses, in whom you trust. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote about me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?"

 

[daydreamer40]

So here you have daydreamer40 accusing you of something you are not saying? That is a bit dishonest isnt it?

daydreamer40 any comments?

Certainly. I will repeat, if Jason denies it is true what I have just written to him, he is bearing false witness, as you have by claiming I made a false statement. You also show a remarkable lack of judgement

 

[BNR32FAN]

So your just making false claims and accusations like you did with me the other night [my time]? It is ok maybe we can ask Jason next time we see him. Since your the one talking about him here.

No I had this conversation with brother Jason last week. He does believe that works do play a role in our justification.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes I did say that faith does also mean to believe. As far as James 2:18 yes our works are evidence of our faith but that doesn’t necessarily mean we are justified by works. It means a person can see our faith thru our works. Even then it can be extremely difficult. No one suspected Judas to be a nonbeliever except Jesus. Judas did good works but John says in John 6:64 that Jesus knew who did not believe and who would betray Him.

Jesus says if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17). James is saying we are justified by works and not by faith only (or faith alone) (James 2:24). So that discounts that theory that it is faith alone when the Bible says we are not justified by faith alone. People say the exact opposite.

 

[daydreamer40]

What is included in New Covenant Law?

Are you not justified or saved by this commandment or Law from the New Covenant?

"And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment." (1 John 3:23).

How about the commandment in the New Testament on repentance? Are you under that one or not? (See Acts of the Apostles 17:30).

And so we have a perfect example, of someone who insists you must obey all the NT commands to be justified, who is not in the least concerned at not confirming the truth when it is placed before him. It is always the same with those who preach righteousness of obeying the law

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Certainly. I will repeat, if Jason denies it is true what I have just written to him, he is bearing false witness, as you have by claiming I made a false statement. You also show a remarkable lack of judgement

What judgment is lacking? I do not judge you. You however seem to be good at juding others but then when pressed are not able to prove your accusations. You either can prove your claims and your accusations your making or you cannot. It seems when asked you cannot. What is one to believe? Anyhow enough of this I will leave this between you and God.

 

[daydreamer40]

Jesus says if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17). James is saying we are justified by works and not by faith only (or faith alone) (James 2:24). So that discounts that theory that it is faith alone when the Bible says we are not justified by faith alone. People say the exact opposite.

I will ask you again. Let us see if telling the truth is important to you:

You told me, Rom3:20 only concerns not being justified by non applicable old covenant law. You have also, more than once stated the Christian is justified/righteous by obeying new covenant law, including nine of the ten commandments, are you now denying this is what you have previously stated?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You told me, Rom3:20 only concerns not being justified by non applicable old covenant law. You have also, more than once stated the Christian is justified/righteous by obeying new covenant law, including nine of the ten commandments, are you now denying this is what you have previously stated?

I am essentially saying the Moral Law in the Old been repeated by Jesus and His followers in the New Covenant. Ever read Matthew 19:17 lately? This does not mean the Old Covenant Law as a whole is still binding. I told you before that the Old Law is no more and it has been replaced by the New Covenant Law. Just because some laws have been repeated does not mean that the Old Law as whole is still in effect. You are confused as to what I actually said or meant.

 

[daydreamer40]

What judgment is lacking? I do not judge you. You however seem to be good at juding others but then when pressed are not able to prove your accusations. You either can prove your claims and your accusations your making or you cannot. It seems when asked you cannot. What is one to believe?

If you believe correctly, you have better discernment, obviously

 

[daydreamer40]

I am saying the Moral Law in the Old been repeated by Jesus and His followers in the New Covenant. Ever read Matthew 19:17 lately? This does not mean the Old Covenant Law as a whole is still binding. I told you before that the Old Law is no more and it has been replaced by the New Covenant Law.

Once again, is the following true? Is honesty not part of your obeying new covenant law Jason?


You told me, Rom3:20 only concerns not being justified by non applicable old covenant law. You have also, more than once stated the Christian is justified/righteous by obeying new covenant law, including nine of the ten commandments, are you now denying this is what you have previously stated?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Jesus says if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17). James is saying we are justified by works and not by faith only (or faith alone) (James 2:24). So that discounts that theory that it is faith alone when the Bible says we are not justified by faith alone. People say the exact opposite.

And I explained how the word justified or
dikaióō means

1) to render righteous or such he ought to be

2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered

3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

I’m sorry if you reject the original scriptures but I didn’t write them. If James is saying we are rendered righteous by works then he and Paul are contradicting each other. Paul is specifically saying we are not saved by works we are saved by faith. James is saying we are not shown to be right with God but faith alone. Abraham was shown to be right with God but his works.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You told me, Rom3:20 only concerns not being justified by non applicable old covenant law. You have also, more than once stated the Christian is justified/righteous by obeying new covenant law, including nine of the ten commandments, are you now denying this is what you have previously stated?

Your contention is that you think that the Moral Law is a part of the Old Law and it cannot be repeated in the New Covenant and still be binding for the believer today with the Old Law (away as a whole - covenantally speaking) still passing away.

Hebrews 7:12 says the law has changed.
The Old Law is no more and the New Law is now in effect.

 

[daydreamer40]

Your contention is that you think that the Moral Law is a part of the Old Law and it cannot be repeated in the New Covenant and still be binding for the believer today with the Old Law (away as a whole - covenantally speaking) still passing away.

Hebrews 7:12 says the law has changed.
The Old Law is no more and the New Law is now in effect.

Why will you not honestly answer the question Jason , why deflect, I am going to go on repeating it until you answer truthfully:


You told me, Rom3:20 only concerns not being justified by non applicable old covenant law. You have also, more than once stated the Christian is justified/righteous by obeying new covenant law, including nine of the ten commandments, are you now denying this is what you have previously stated?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

And I explained how the word justified or
dikaióō means

1) to render righteous or such he ought to be

2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered

3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

I’m sorry if you reject the original scriptures but I didn’t write them. If James is saying we are rendered righteous by works then he and Paul are contradicting each other. Paul is specifically saying we are not saved by works we are saved by faith. James is saying we are not shown to be right with God but faith alone. Abraham was shown to be right with God but his works.

I believe God preserved His Word today perfectly in the English language with the 1769 KJV. I do not believe this conflicts with the original languages. This is not the topic of discussion of this thread, though. So I will leave it be.

May God bless you.

 

[daydreamer40]

It truly is amazing. People who constantly tell you any sin places you in an unsaved state, are quite happy not to tell the truth when asked to do so

 

[daydreamer40]

I believe God preserved His Word today perfectly in the English language with the 1769 KJV. I do not believe this conflicts with the original languages. This is not the topic of discussion of this thread, though. So I will leave it be.

May God bless you.

Why will you not honestly answer the question Jason , why deflect, I am going to go on repeating it until you answer truthfully:


You told me, Rom3:20 only concerns not being justified by non applicable old covenant law. You have also, more than once stated the Christian is justified/righteous by obeying new covenant law, including nine of the ten commandments, are you now denying this is what you have previously stated?

 

[BNR32FAN]

I believe God preserved His Word today perfectly in the English language with the 1769 KJV. I do not believe this conflicts with the original languages. This is not the topic of discussion of this thread, though. So I will leave it be.

May God bless you.

God bless you brother I sincerely hope I have not offended you. It was not my intention.

 

[daydreamer40]

Maybe Jason is now embarrassed by his stated beliefs, and will not acknowledge them.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Why will you not honestly answer the question Jason , why deflect, I am going to go on repeating it until you answer truthfully:


You told me, Rom3:20 only concerns not being justified by non applicable old covenant law. You have also, more than once stated the Christian is justified/righteous by obeying new covenant law, including nine of the ten commandments, are you now denying this is what you have previously stated?

The word Law can be used in different ways by Paul. The context determines it's use. In Romans 3:20 is talking about the Old Law. Paul is saying that by the Law brings the knowledge of sin. This was true for the Old Covenant (as well as the New - but his focus here at this point is the Old Law). For the context says:

"What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?" (Romans 3:1).​

Is circumcision a part of the Old Testament Law or is it a part of New Testament Law?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Maybe Jason is now embarrassed by his stated beliefs, and will not acknowledge them.

Not at all. You merely do not understand what I am trying to say. Perhaps I can draw some pictures or do a hand puppet show to help.

 

[daydreamer40]

The word Law can be used in different ways by Paul. The context determines it's use. In Romans 3:20 is talking about the Old Law. Paul is saying that by the Law brings the knowledge of sin. This was true for the Old Covenant (as well as the New - but his focus is the Old Law). For the context says:

"What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?" (Romans 3:1).

Is circumcision a part of the Old Testament Law or is it a part of New Testament Law?

Why will you not honestly answer the question Jason , why deflect, I am going to go on repeating it until you answer truthfully:


You told me, Rom3:20 only concerns not being justified by non applicable old covenant law. You have also, more than once stated the Christian is justified/righteous by obeying new covenant law, including nine of the ten commandments, are you now denying this is what you have previously stated?