Do "works of righteousness" declare the Atonement to be incomplete?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married

As for Ephesians 2:4-9: Well, you conveniently left out the word "quickened" in Ephesians 2:5. Seeing you did not provide the whole passage, I decided to re-quote Ephesians 2:4-9 from the actual King James in it's entirety as a part of my commentary to you below (Including Ephesians 2:10 as a bonus). ...
I "conveniently left out the word "quickened" in Ephesians 2:5"?

I didn't leave anything out. It was a direct quote, you nut.
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married

As for Ephesians 2:4-9: Well, you conveniently left out the word "quickened" in Ephesians 2:5. Seeing you did not provide the whole passage, I decided to re-quote Ephesians 2:4-9 from the actual King James in it's entirety as a part of my commentary to you below (Including Ephesians 2:10 as a bonus). ...
From "the actual King James". Well, I'll have to say, we are mighty impressed. Wow. I suppose you were being serious too.
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married

As for Ephesians 2:4-9: Well, you conveniently left out the word "quickened" in Ephesians 2:5. Seeing you did not provide the whole passage, I decided to re-quote Ephesians 2:4-9 from the actual King James in it's entirety as a part of my commentary to you below (Including Ephesians 2:10 as a bonus). …
I see your problem. "by grace ye are saved" is a parenthetical statement in the KJV. No wonder you don't believe in grace. Time to get a new Bible. A real Bible.

Ephesians 2:4-5 King James Version (KJV)
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
My time is limited. But you cannot ignore Romans 3-4 when you read Romans 5. That is what she is doing. Romans 3 through Romans 4 talks of the problem of “Circumcision Salvationism,” which lets us know the context of Romans 5.
Yes but there are no chapters in the original Bible. Now what will you do for context?
 
Upvote 0

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,790
✟322,365.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
My time is limited. But you cannot ignore Romans 3-4 when you read Romans 5. That is what she is doing. Romans 3 through Romans 4 talks of the problem of “Circumcision Salvationism,” which lets us know the context of Romans 5.
For context beginning Romans 5, I'll give you the last verses of Romans 4 since your worried that the context carried over.

Romans 4:24-25

24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Romans 5:1-11
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; 4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope: 5A nd hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
 
Last edited:
  • Winner
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Wow. that verse eleven is so great. The word atonement doesn't appear in the NIV but check out this comparison. We CAN'T boast in our works, but what can we boast in? (the atonement) Our reconciliation. Hooray!

Ephesians 2:8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Romans 5:11
Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: ToBeLoved
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I "conveniently left out the word "quickened" in Ephesians 2:5"?

I didn't leave anything out. It was a direct quote,...

Ah, my apologies. You quoted a Modern Translation that left out the word "quickened." FYI (For your information): I use the King James primarily because I believe it is the divinely inspired preserved Word of God for our day. I use Modern Translations sometimes as a way to help up update the language that is in the KJV (But the KJV is my final word of authority).

You said:
...you nut.

Paul says we are to speak full of grace seasoned with salt (Colossians 4:6).

Anyways, may the Lord Jesus Christ and His goodness shine upon you this fine evening.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
From "the actual King James". Well, I'll have to say, we are mighty impressed. Wow. I suppose you were being serious too.

Yes, absolutely. The KJV is one of the most hated Bibles and has come under attack more than any other. This is not a problem normally for me when I debate against Mid-Acts Dispensationalists (MAD proponents) because they are even more die hard KJV-Only than me. MAD proponents believe in "Belief Alone" for salvation, too; But they believe that there are two or more gospels. They erroneously believe the gospel given to the Israelites is different than the gospel given to the Gentiles.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I see your problem. "by grace ye are saved" is a parenthetical statement in the KJV. No wonder you don't believe in grace. Time to get a new Bible. A real Bible.

Ephesians 2:4-5 King James Version (KJV)
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

In Ephesians 2:5, the phrase: "by grace ye are saved" is there in the Greek.

You can check out the strong numbers here.

When something is added in parentheses, it is there so as to provide additional information. It is merely a particular writing style that can be used or not used and it does not change the meaning of what is being said. For if you were to look at other translations, they also say the phrase "by grace are you saved" without the parentheses. However, the KJV is not alone. There are other translations besides the KJV that also use the parentheses, as well. So just because something is in parentheses, does not change the meaning any way and nor does it de-emphasize what is being said, either (if that is what you were implying). Yes, in some cases, parenthetical statements can be used to de-emphasize or that wouldn't normally fit into the flow of your text but you want to include nonetheless, but that would not be the way that it is used here.

For example: Expanded Bible (EXB) says this for Romans 13:8.

"Do not owe people [anyone] anything, except always owe love to each other, because the person who loves others has obeyed all [fulfilled] the law." (Romans 13:8) (EXB).​

The word "anyone" in parentheses does not really need to be there in this particular case. It is merely expounding upon the word "people" and can be obvious to many that this is talking to anyone or everyone. But even though the word is added in parenthesis because it was not in the body of the original text for a translation in English, it is added as a means for clarity of information and not as a means to make something less clear.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I see your problem. "by grace ye are saved" is a parenthetical statement in the KJV. No wonder you don't believe in grace. Time to get a new Bible. A real Bible.

Ephesians 2:4-5 King James Version (KJV)
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

I also believe whole heartedly the phrase "by grace ye are saved" in Ephesians 2:5. I believe this is in context (or in view) of the rest of the words in that verse. It is expounding or expanding upon what was just said. Even when we WERE dead in sins. WERE. Past tense. Even when we WERE dead in sins (meaning our old life of when we sinned - See Ephesians 2:2-3), God has quickened us together with Christ when we come to the Lord Jesus Christ by faith seeking His forgiveness. This is how we are saved by grace. Jesus. It's how we get right with God. That is the first step of a beautiful relationship. But for others, it is merely a mental ascent only and no real major change within their life.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Yes but there are no chapters in the original Bible. Now what will you do for context?

I already had given the context. The context of Romans 5 is "Circumcision Salvationism" (See Romans 3:1 and Romans 4:9-12). We know this because it is even more clear in other statements made by Paul to the Galatians (See Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, Galatians 6:15). Also see Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24.

Please get back to me when you read all of these verses.
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I already had given the context. The context of Romans 5 is "Circumcision Salvationism" (See Romans 3:1 and Romans 4:9-12). We know this because it is even more clear in other statements made by Paul to the Galatians (See Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, Galatians 6:15). Also see Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24.

Please get back to me when you read all of these verses.
"Circumcision Salvationism" isn't a context, it's an opinion. Your opinion. I've never heard anyone else use the term. Anyway, not a context. Maybe a lens. Like the one you use to see words that aren't there. The Bible says what it says until you add context. Then it says something else. Funny how that works.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Wow. that verse eleven is so great. The word atonement doesn't appear in the NIV but check out this comparison. We CAN'T boast in our works, but what can we boast in? (the atonement) Our reconciliation. Hooray!

Ephesians 2:8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Romans 5:11
Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

You do realize that the Bible talks about certain believers who turn God's grace into a license for immorality, right?

"For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord." (Jude 1:4) (NIV).​

As for the phrase, "they deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord."

Well, even if this verse is not directly referring to believers today who think they can sin and still be saved, and it was referring to another group of believers back at that time, this would still apply to those who think they sin and still be saved today because it is giving us the reason why this particular group is under condemnation.

Besides, according to Scripture, a person can deny the Lord by a lack of works, too.

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).​

In other words, how do you explain Jude 1:4?
Does this not sound like it could be a warning against those who believe in the popular sin and still be saved type belief today? If so, then why take such a chance on believing as you do? For even if there was a slim chance, I wouldn't want to play games. I would make sure and do my best to understand this verse as best as possible from an unbiased viewpoint. Pray about it. Seek the Lord for the answer.
 
Last edited:
  • Winner
Reactions: Dorothy Mae
Upvote 0

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,790
✟322,365.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
"Circumcision Salvationism" isn't a context, it's an opinion. Your opinion. I've never heard anyone else use the term. Anyway, not a context. Maybe a lens. Like the one you use to see words that aren't there. The Bible says what it says until you add context. Then it says something else. Funny how that works.
I’ve never in 35 years EVER heard anyone say “Circumcision Salvationism”. I think he made it up.

Will he ever address my last post? I’m thinking the lack of circumcision in the context of the end of Romans 4 and the verses in Romans 5 I posted have someone flustered.

Now he seems to be moving on to another subject I wish people would just admit when they don’t know.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
"Circumcision Salvationism" isn't a context, it's an opinion. Your opinion. I've never heard anyone else use the term. Anyway, not a context. Maybe a lens. Like the one you use to see words that aren't there. The Bible says what it says until you add context. Then it says something else. Funny how that works.

Please read very slowly the following verses by Paul, my friend.

Galatians 2:3 says, “But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:”

Galatians 5:2 says, “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”

Galatians 6:15 (NLT) says, “It doesn't matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation.”

1 Corinthians 7:18-19 says,
18 For instance, a man who was circumcised before he became a believer should not try to reverse it. And the man who was uncircumcised when he became a believer should not be circumcised now. (NLT)
19 “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.” (NASB)

Romans 3:1 says, “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?”​

Here are some other verses that clearly talk about the problem of "Circumcision Salvationism" at the Jerusalem counsel.

Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, "But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”​
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I’ve never in 35 years EVER heard anyone say “Circumcision Salvationism”. I think he made it up.

Will he ever address my last post? I’m thinking the lack of circumcision in the context of the end of Romans 4 and the verses in Romans 5 I posted have someone flustered.

Now he seems to be moving on to another subject I wish people would just admit when they don’t know.

It's because people do not want to see the truth in God's Word. They can read a verse or passage a thousand times and not get what it is saying.

Please carefully read the verses very slowly in Post #738.
 
Upvote 0

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,790
✟322,365.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
It's because people do not want to see the truth in God's Word. They can read a verse or passage a thousand times and not get what it is saying.

Please carefully read the verses very slowly in Post #738.
Just because the word circumcision is in the Bible, doesn’t mean your compounding two separate words together have any meaning.

I think you need attention. Making up words and combining them into a compound word that is never used together in the Bible is bad theology.

I really recommend you get under some solid Biblical teaching in a church. Your theology is getting worse.

I’m really getting worried.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
For context beginning Romans 5, I'll give you the last verses of Romans 4 since your worried that the context carried over.

Romans 4:24-25

24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Romans 5:1-11
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; 4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope: 5A nd hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

And I totally believe these verses just fine. This is talking about "Initial Salvation" or "Ultimate Salvation. Romans 4:9-12 talks about the unnecessity of circumcision. Why would Paul bring that up? Why would Paul say, what profit is there in circumcision in Romans 3:1? Think. This all relates to how we are not under the Law of Moses contractually speaking and how we are not saved by Law Alone (Which is what "Circumcision Salvationism" is teaching). So in Romans 4, Paul here is talking about the works of the Law of Moses and not the works of faith that follow God's grace (Which sets up the context of Romans 5)..

In Romans 5:2, it says we have ACCESS by faith into this grace.
To gain access.
To enter in.
Initial Salvation.

Romans 5:6-10 is talking about what Christ done for us when He died upon the cross and paid the penalty for our sins.

Romans 5:11 talks about how we can now RECEIVE the atonement. This is no doubt by faith. Entrance. Initial Salvation. This is how we are ultimately saved when we first come to the Lord. We seek forgiveness with Jesus and believe in His death and resurrection for salvation.

This in no way conflicts with necessity of works of faith that follow God's grace. Paul's contention was with trying to be justified by the "works of the Laws of Moses," and his contention was not with "works of faith" that follows after one has been saved by God's amazing grace.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Just because the word circumcision is in the Bible, doesn’t mean your compounding two separate words together have any meaning.

I think you need attention. Making up words and combining them into a compound word that is never used together in the Bible is bad theology.

I really recommend you get under some solid Biblical teaching in a church. Your theology is getting worse.

I’m really getting worried.

Did you even read the verses in that list?
It is clearly talking about Circumcision Salvationism.
Can you not see it?
I suppose it is possible that you are unable to see it.
But the words are plainly there for you to see.

I want you to read Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24 several times real slowly. If you cannot understand that those verses are talking about "Circumcision Salvationism" I cannot help you. But please before you reply again, I want you to read them again now.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.